Confused... adjusting aircraft cruise speeds.

[Trooper117]

Hi chaps, just a little confused here on cruise speed adjustment.

I've been reading through the threads here and this cruise adjustment can be altered through the 'aircraft info' file in the PWCG data file.

Having located the file, I found there was no Spitfire data to enable me to make any adjustments.

Most of the other aircraft in game are in the file but not the Spit... any reason for this?

[Semor76]

The Spit is there. Just look for "spitfiremkvb"  (cruising speed is already set to 350km/h,so no changes for me)

[Trooper117]

In a post from Yogiflight he states the file location is...  'Battle of Stalingrad/PWCG Campaign/BOSData/Input/AircraftInfo'. 

When I look at the  AircraftInfo (which is a config file) the Spit is not listed... what am I missing here?

[dburne]

Mine is there, under PWCG Campaign/BOS Data/Input/Aircraft. ( not Aircraftinfo). Aircraft is a file folder.

Edited February 9, 2018 by dburne

[Trooper117]

Ah, thanks for that, seems that Yogi was leading me up a garden path... now it makes sense, lol!

[dburne]

Ah, thanks for that, seems that Yogi was leading me up a garden path... now it makes sense, lol!

 

 

 

Glad it helped.

[PatrickAWlson]

I did significantly reduce and harmonize cruise speeds in a recent previous release.  This was in response to players not being able to keep up with their leaders when flying formation.

[Trooper117]

It will help thanks... I'm fed up of chasing the bloody flight leader, who even leaves the AI members of his flight well behind.

I'll reset the parameters when I get to lead the flight, (if I live that long) 

[dburne]

It will help thanks... I'm fed up of chasing the bloody flight leader, who even leaves the AI members of his flight well behind.

I'll reset the parameters when I get to lead the flight, (if I live that long) 

 

That is odd, what plane are you flying?

I have not had that problem in either the Yak-1 or the Spit.

Make sure you are trimmed properly ( watching the gauge) and rads closed as much as you can while maintaining a decent temp.

Edited February 9, 2018 by dburne

[Trooper117]

Yes, I know how to fly the Spit or any other aircraft that has trim controls and manual rads etc... but for some reason not only me, but the AI are rarely able to stay with the leader.

I'm going to alter the cruise by 25 kph and see if that makes  a difference.

[Yogiflight]

In a post from Yogiflight he states the file location is... 'Battle of Stalingrad/PWCG Campaign/BOSData/Input/AircraftInfo'.

I think it was the correct path at that time, but was changed meanwhile to 'Aircraft' instead of 'Aircraftinfo' (I hope I was not too stupid to write the correct path ). But where do you still have an 'Aircraftinfo' under 'Input', I don't have it.

 

 

Yes, I know how to fly the Spit or any other aircraft that has trim controls and manual rads etc... but for some reason not only me, but the AI are rarely able to stay with the leader. I'm going to alter the cruise by 25 kph and see if that makes a difference.

That AI does not fly with the leader, has nothing to do with the cruising speed, they simply don't do it anymore since the big FM-patch, for what reason ever. There where some things in AI behaviour broken. Another example is that AI very often try to start with the FW190 with very low power and get stuck on the ground a few hundrets of meters behind the airfield.

The issue with the cruising speeds is, that you would need different cruising speeds for low/med altitudes and high altitudes. The old cruising speeds where absolutely OK for low altitudes, but hard to reach in 5 or 6k.

Edited February 9, 2018 by Yogiflight

[Trooper117]

Lol!... oh well, if it's going to make little difference I won't make adjustments, seems pointless. Thanks for replying all.

[Redglyph]

On 2/9/2018 at 1:56 PM, PatrickAWlson said:

I did significantly reduce and harmonize cruise speeds in a recent previous release.  This was in response to players not being able to keep up with their leaders when flying formation.

 

Thanks!

I'll see if I can edit that myself, but a mission with a Bf-109 F-4 showed that it's not possible to keep up with the AI during climb, the user needs to remain in climb power too long and the oil temperature gets too high, I don't know how the AI manages that. I can try to get manual control of the radiator, though it's currently flawed in IL-2 I think.

[QJ-Q_Anton]

On 3/4/2018 at 12:15 PM, Redglyph said:

I'll see if I can edit that myself, but a mission with a Bf-109 F-4 showed that it's not possible to keep up with the AI during climb, the user needs to remain in climb power too long and the oil temperature gets too high, I don't know how the AI manages that. I can try to get manual control of the radiator, though it's currently flawed in IL-2 I think.

 

I have the exact same experience with the 109 F4, the AI seem to be on combat power throughout the climb. If I climb at max continuous (1.15 ata), by the time we reach 5000m, they are 5km in front of me. I have "generate climb waypoints" disabled. I try to maintain 400 km/h during the climb; the AI gains altitude at a similar rate, but covers the ground much faster.

 

In contrast, once at altitude, I find it difficult to stay with them in level flight, because they are so slow. 0.8 ata easily gives me 400 km/h, but they cruise at around 350, it seems.

[Yogiflight]

I use 'Generate Climb Waypoints' and don't have any issues following the AI. BTW the new cruising speed of the F4 is 360km/h, as far as I remember, but you can change it in 'BOS/PWCGCampaign/BOSData/Input/Aircraft', if you think it is too slow.

On 4.3.2018 at 1:15 PM, Redglyph said:

'll see if I can edit that myself, but a mission with a Bf-109 F-4 showed that it's not possible to keep up with the AI during climb, the user needs to remain in climb power too long and the oil temperature gets too high, I don't know how the AI manages that. I can try to get manual control of the radiator, though it's currently flawed in IL-2 I think.

Do you use the technochat, because the temperature gauge only shows the water temperature in game and I never had any issues with it. The automatic rules the radiator flaps in a way, that the temperature is near maximum, to get as few drag by the flaps as possible.

[Redglyph]

3 hours ago, QJ-Q_Anton said:

 

I have the exact same experience with the 109 F4, the AI seem to be on combat power throughout the climb. If I climb at max continuous (1.15 ata), by the time we reach 5000m, they are 5km in front of me. I have "generate climb waypoints" disabled. I try to maintain 400 km/h during the climb; the AI gains altitude at a similar rate, but covers the ground much faster.

 

In contrast, once at altitude, I find it difficult to stay with them in level flight, because they are so slow. 0.8 ata easily gives me 400 km/h, but they cruise at around 350, it seems.

 

Today I had a long flight, when the leader is in front he seems to be at more than 400 km/h, I could only keep up by cheating and cutting the long circles he did to climb. Once I finally got closer he slowed down to 300-350, then once I did my upmost to get back to him he accelerated again at maximum speed :/

Once at altitude it got more manageable, though the whole 1h-long trip was always in the middle of the cloud layer so I had to be quite close to see him (and it was supposed to be a reconnaissance flight, so of course we couldn't spot anything.

 

From what a real pilot described, it seems better to keep a 7° flap and go straight up at a slower pace, rather than climbing at this insane speed.

 

58 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

I use 'Generate Climb Waypoints' and don't have any issues following the AI. BTW the new cruising speed of the F4 is 360km/h, as far as I remember, but you can change it in 'BOS/PWCGCampaign/BOSData/Input/Aircraft', if you think it is too slow.

Do you use the technochat, because the temperature gauge only shows the water temperature in game and I never had any issues with it. The automatic rules the radiator flaps in a way, that the temperature is near maximum, to get as few drag by the flaps as possible.

 

I confirm it's 360 km/h in cruise (sometimes he slows down to ~300 then reaccelerates, just to try and lose any wingman). It's the climb part that is unrealistic, but I have no idea whether it's possible to control that when creating a mission, I suppose it's mostly one of the AI bugs.

I found the proper control for the radiator, there were apparently two different way to switch between manual and auto  At least this allows for more control on the water temperature (without that it gets too close to the limit, then the oil quickly follows). I'm not using any mod so I may be doing something wrong by misinterpreting the temperature.

The problem is worse when an enemy aircraft is incoming, the engine is already very hot and it's almost not possible to use combat power.

 

I'll try the "climb waypoints", thanks for the tips!

Edited March 5, 2018 by Redglyph

[Yogiflight]

6 hours ago, Redglyph said:

The problem is worse when an enemy aircraft is incoming, the engine is already very hot and it's almost not possible to use combat power.

You don't have to care about the temperature, because it is regulated by the automatic. The temperature stays the same, the only thing that changes is, how far your radiator flaps are open. And in the 109s the radiator flaps are never very far opened, since this was changes by the devs about two years ago. I think it was a bit overdone then.

[Redglyph]

14 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

You don't have to care about the temperature, because it is regulated by the automatic. The temperature stays the same, the only thing that changes is, how far your radiator flaps are open. And in the 109s the radiator flaps are never very far opened, since this was changes by the devs about two years ago. I think it was a bit overdone then.

 

I could try, but I've already damaged an engine doing that. It also leaves less margin in case of fight, unless the aircraft has the capacity to cool down in all situations at all regimes, but there wouldn't be a time limit in that case

 

I check and the climb waypoints are set to 1, despite that the leader is going much too fast. I suppose there's no real solution then but to put up with that AI behaviour.

Edited March 6, 2018 by Redglyph

[Yogiflight]

1 hour ago, Redglyph said:

but there wouldn't be a time limit in that case

The engine time limits are not because of too high temperatures, but because of overstressing the engine mechanically. The temperatures are an additional limit for the engines.

As I said above, the automatic regulates the temperature, so what you can do, is watch your radiator flaps. When your engine temperature is very high, they should be completely open., but I never saw them far opened. Engine failures, I think, are because of going over a timelimit, or because of getting hit by enemy fire (or friendly, as it happened to me already).

About the flightleader. The issue, from my experience, is not the flightleader, but the other AIs. They don't try to fly in formation with the leader, but always let a huge gap to him. When I fly a mission with the flightleader only, there is no problem to follow him.

[Redglyph]

I've just tried with 2 Rotten and didn't have the problem, the 3 AIs were flying at 360 km/h, but with only one AI as leader I had the problem again.

 

I'm not sure I fully understand or agree on the engine limits, overstressing it would mean extra wear due to something. It could be going beyond the elastic limit of the mechanical parts, or dilatation and friction due to the extra temperature, which is evacuated with oil and water through the radiators. Being closer to the limit means riskier to overstress, or increased wear & tear because of the friction. It's not the only factor but I would have a hard time putting the temperature out of the equation.

 

Beside that, the fuel consumption is far from optimal at this regime, the Bf 109 doesn't have a big fuel tank and a long flight after that is a bit tight, any combat and one may quickly run out of fuel. So to me it's clearly an AI problem of mismanagement in the climb, and apparently when the AI is alone and leader, or when there are gaps forming and the wingmen have to catch up (but I haven't witnessed that in the current version, might be just luck). I did see something like that with Bf-110, they seem to be only able to turn the engine full on or idle, so they accelerate disproportionately (quite audibly, at first I was wondering if my left engine had a problem but it was just my wingman) then let go, get behind and accelerate again full throttle, and so on. But I couldn't see that with AI Bf-109 in formation, perhaps it's less obvious or they manage the throttle more smoothly.

 

For now I'll try with more than one AI in the hope it's consistent and smoother. It's certainly safer when we're jumped by enemies anyway  

 

[blitze]

The problem is definitely not with cruise speeds but with AI behavior.

 

Things to understand, when AI flight leader climbs - he goes like a bat out of hell, regardless of cruise speeds set.

 

When approaching a way point, the flight leader throttles right back before initiating the turn then on the way point, he runs the turn in combat power.

 

At cruise altitude, the flight leader will cruise at stated cruise speed which now I find to slow.  Sorry Pat.

 

The thing is, to take these factors into account and learn to predict what the AI flight leader is going to do.  Also for German Combat Air patrols, edit the climb and cruise way points so your altitude is 3 to 4k or under cloud base if cloudy.  One would assume one is more hunting for Mud Movers on these patrols more than anything else and we all know they will be operating around 1k or less.  Only Migs will be found up high and if they want to dance above the clouds, good for them but for me, I'd prefer to tangle with the Mud Movers.

 

Also a trick with AI is if you decide to do attack some ground targets on your way home when flying as a fighter, tell your flight to hold position and wait before you descend to shoot up the ground.  This saves your flight lawn darting and when you are done shooting the place up and return to alt, tell your flight to resume the mission.  This brings them back in formation with you.

 

AI needs some hand holding but can be effective.

[Yogiflight]

5 hours ago, blitze said:

Things to understand, when AI flight leader climbs - he goes like a bat out of hell, regardless of cruise speeds set.

 

When approaching a way point, the flight leader throttles right back before initiating the turn then on the way point, he runs the turn in combat power.

 

At cruise altitude, the flight leader will cruise at stated cruise speed which now I find to slow.  Sorry Pat.

When you fly the FW190, it is quite different, as AI accelerates after takeoff only to 300km/h and then starts to climb with 270km/h. As they reach the altitude of the next waypoint before reaching it, they then fly horizontally with 270km/h, so you always have to throttle back to around 1500 rpm. And at the next climb waypoint they again throttle up and go i a steep climb to the next altitude. So the climb is much better to do in the Bf109s. Another thing I noticed, there are missions, IIRC intercept missions, in which the leader doesn't fly with the cruising speed, but with 300km/h, which is pretty slow for cruising in 109 or 190.

 

6 hours ago, blitze said:

The thing is, to take these factors into account and learn to predict what the AI flight leader is going to do.  Also for German Combat Air patrols, edit the climb and cruise way points so your altitude is 3 to 4k or under cloud base if cloudy.  One would assume one is more hunting for Mud Movers on these patrols more than anything else and we all know they will be operating around 1k or less.  Only Migs will be found up high and if they want to dance above the clouds, good for them but for me, I'd prefer to tangle with the Mud Movers.

Absolutely agreed. I, too started doing this, some time ago. It is pretty anoying flying in 6k above a closed cloud layer, seeing noone and below the clouds are Pe2s or IL2s attacking the own troops. And flying 200m or so above the clouds, makes no sense at all, as you don't see aircrafts below you, and are easy to see for aircrafts above you, acting as an easy prey.

[Redglyph]

That would be an interesting suggestion indeed, to adapt the cruise altitude depending on the mission, and relative aircraft.

 

AI does need to be taken care of, also AI wingmen will usually tend to crash when the "human" pilot shoots at ground targets, I've lost quite a few like that (it probably also depends on the airplane type). It's an interesting defense move too, I've killed a few enemy Bf-109s simply by diving when they were attacking from behind, the AI will usually follow in the dive then crash on the ground.

[Yogiflight]

 

1 hour ago, Redglyph said:

It's an interesting defense move too, I've killed a few enemy Bf-109s simply by diving when they were attacking from behind, the AI will usually follow in the dive then crash on the ground.

Yep, that works most of the times for me, too. I was quite surprised, when I tried it last time and the Yaks, that followed me refused to dig themselves into the ground.

[Redglyph]

The AI's full of surprises  It seems to handle the Yak pretty well.

I kind of like those Yaks, except to read the heading or the fuel gauges! I use Track-IR and in order to read the wing gauges I have to pull my head as high as possible and look in a weird askew way, it must be funny to see. Not very comfortable and not always successful - I'm pretty sure my latest stiff neck was due to playing long Yak-1 missions 

Anyway. The PWCG looks very interesting, and seems to offer a lot of immersion, it just requires a lot of getting-used-to at the beginning, partly because of the AI quirks in IL-2.

 

Thanks all for the help, by the way!

Edited March 7, 2018 by Redglyph

[dburne]

14 hours ago, Redglyph said:

The AI's full of surprises  It seems to handle the Yak pretty well.

I kind of like those Yaks, except to read the heading or the fuel gauges! I use Track-IR and in order to read the wing gauges I have to pull my head as high as possible and look in a weird askew way, it must be funny to see. Not very comfortable and not always successful - I'm pretty sure my latest stiff neck was due to playing long Yak-1 missions 

Anyway. The PWCG looks very interesting, and seems to offer a lot of immersion, it just requires a lot of getting-used-to at the beginning, partly because of the AI quirks in IL-2.

 

 

It is so worth it though, fantastic program!

[blitze]

I have found in Advance Config - Flight - Random Additional Altitude, setting that to 1500 has brought the flight down a bit from the clouds.

 

Try it on 1500 or 2000 and see how your it works for you.  Maybe not such an issue if playing with icons on but in full real, I don't see the enemy when I am up with the Gods so need to keep a bit lower to either spot them or the AA firing in the flights general direction.  Limitation of a 27" monitor, lord knows how others would fare on lesser monitor sizes.  When traveling, I turn icons on cause I can't see anything on the Lap Top screen. LOL.

[TheSNAFU]

I am flying a fighter campaign on the Stalingrad map late September 42 (JG3) now flying the 109 G2. Since getting that model the flight leader and AI mates leave me in the dust after takeoff. I can have the throttle wide open and trimmed out as best I can and still I cannot stay up with them. Even my wingman flies by me. While the flight leader used to fly way ahead of the rest of the flight the others were going basically at my speed. I saw the discussion of reducing cruise speed which seemed to suggest it does not fix this problem but I tried it anyway cutting cruising speed of the G2 from 450 to 430. It had no impact as far as I could tell. Something is off and seems worse to me than the original problem with the leader since now the whole AI flight waves bye bye.

[Yogiflight]

There are two different things to keep in mind. The first, climbing speed has, as far as I noticed, nothing to do with the cruising speed, but is set for the different aircraft types differently. For the FW190 it is at 270km/h, for the Bf109s it is at 400km/h, so you will have to climb with 1.3ATA, which is for german aircrafts called 'Steig- und Kampfleistung' (climb- and combat power).

The second thing is, when having reached the flight altitude, the flight flies with cruising speed and here it very much depends on your altitude. In 2k 430km/h is no problem, but if you are flying in 6k, you will need quite some time to reach the cruising speed, and it is near your max speed, as we are talking about IAS not TAS, which means you are flying much faster, than your speed gauge shows you. So it might be a good idea to lower your cruising speed again, to about 400km/h, or even lower. And I hope the issue with the flightleader always flying miles ahead of his flight, is being solved with game version 3.001, as it would be an issue for the new campaign mode as well.