Is a high-precision joystick matrix rather bad for good shooting?

[Wolfram-Harms]

Still wondering why my Bf 109 are wobbling so much, especially when I try to aim and hit an opponent.

The nose is almost spinning around the spot I want to fire at.

Watching videos of better players, their aircraft seem to move much "calmer" through the air.

My stick has a high-resolution matrix (Thrustmaster TM 16.000) - could that rather be a problem?

 

I tried it with setting up the curves ingame with deadzones up to 75%, but that only seemed to reduce

the space for any actions of the stick, and didn't make it much better.

 

I do work with the stabilizer on the 109 and use -75% up to -80% in combat.

Sometimes I also use 7% - 12% flaps.

 

At the end of my wits, I wanna ask the "professionals" - what else could I do?

 

 

[=EXPEND=CG_Justin]

Still wondering why my Bf 109 are wobbling so much, especially when I try to aim and hit an opponent.

The nose is almost spinning around the spot I want to fire at.

Watching videos of better players, their aircraft seem to move much "calmer" through the air.

My stick has a high-resolution matrix (Thrustmaster TM 16.000) - could that rather be a problem?

 

I tried it with setting up the curves ingame with deadzones up to 75%, but that only seemed to reduce

the space for any actions of the stick, and didn't make it much better.

 

I do work with the stabilizer on the 109 and use -75% up to -80% in combat.

Sometimes I also use 7% - 12% flaps.

 

At the end of my wits, I wanna ask the "professionals" - what else could I do?

 

I have my sensitivity set pretty far down for my pitch axis and not very much at all for roll. I'm not exactly sure what I have them set to as I am at work. One problem I had (and still suffer from occasionally) is that my nerves get the best of me, and I tend to jerk or make unnecessary movements right when I am about to fire. I often have to remind myself to "CALM DOWN...squeeze the trigger...DO NOT PULL!". It's just like when I hunt deer IRL, stay calm, mind my breathing, aim, squeeze, then go collect my prize. Just remember, smoother is always better.

 

Also, I usually set my stabilizer in the 109 to around -50%. Some may say this is too much, or not enough, but it feels comfortable to me and helps give a little more elevator authority when pulling out of intense dives.

 

Remember, these are just my preferences and I'm sure someone will come along and tell me I'm doing it all wrong, but hey, it doesn't work too bad for me and I am always learning new things in this sim.

 

Good luck, and I hope this helps a bit.

 

 

p.s. Love the quote in your signature!

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

Buy acemaker joystick

[216th_Jordan]

Don't use deadzones. Thats likely the worst you can do. (sensitivity is fine though) A high resolution should only benefit you, so the effect is weird. At what speeds does this happen to you? Do you have rudder on the twist axis? This could be a cause.

[SCG_OpticFlow]

Still wondering why my Bf 109 are wobbling so much, especially when I try to aim and hit an opponent.

The nose is almost spinning around the spot I want to fire at.

Watching videos of better players, their aircraft seem to move much "calmer" through the air.

My stick has a high-resolution matrix (Thrustmaster TM 16.000) - could that rather be a problem?

 

I tried it with setting up the curves ingame with deadzones up to 75%, but that only seemed to reduce

the space for any actions of the stick, and didn't make it much better.

 

I do work with the stabilizer on the 109 and use -75% up to -80% in combat.

Sometimes I also use 7% - 12% flaps.

 

At the end of my wits, I wanna ask the "professionals" - what else could I do?

 

I use linear curve and no dead zones on my MS FFB2 joystick. On the 109 during combat the stab is set somewhere between 0 and -35 during turning and between -40 and -65 when flying level, all depending on speed. I don't use flaps.

[CrazyDuck]

Do you have gun trigger(s) on joystick?

 

I have them on the throttle, as to avoid spoiling my aim when I squeeze them. A bit counterintuitive at first, but you get used to it.

[Dakpilot]

I do not have T1600 but some advice anyway

 

quite often you will need a reasonable dead zone on rudder (i am assuming you are using twist) it is very easy to get unnoticed inputs from rudder input try at least 8%

 

practice with external view to see you are not getting unwanted input and set dead zone to suit

 

also on twist rudder you want a bit of curve so initial input is gentle and reduced compared to twist of stick, you can see this visually in settings as you move rudder, rudder input on twist can be a bit brutal, with full rudder this is not such an issue

 

109 has rudder trim set for cruise speed only, if you are flying faster or slower the ball indicator may well be out to one side and you are flying uncoordinated, slipping/sliding this makes accuracy harder 

 

practice will make it easier to keep ball centered (step on the ball) with a subtle constant input at high/low speed, this is harder with twist stick compared to pedals but with practice it will become more natural

 

As said unwanted inputs with trigger are also very easy, very small dead zones on all axis can help with this initially +- 8%

 

It may also be worth setting noise filter in input devices to 0.5 or so, this may help in desensitizing stick a little, take out noise filter slowly as you get more confidence/accuracy/experience

 

finally 109 needs a 'light hand' small desktop joystick is able to give larger quicker input than desirable or comparable to RL inputs

 

Cheers, Dakpilot

[Wolfram-Harms]

I have my sensitivity set pretty far down for my pitch axis and not very much at all for roll.

 

Have to check, what SENSITIVITY can do for me - thank you.

 

Buy acemaker joystick

 

I cannot spend hundreds on equipment just for simming - life costs money already at all the loose ends. New monitor, new graphic card, TrackIR, joystick etc. have already cost me a fortune.

If it is money that would make me an ace, then I'll never be one, I guess.

 

Do you have rudder on the twist axis? This could be a cause.

 

The stick offers it, but I use pedals. Do you think, the twist stick may still interfere in some odd way?

 

I use linear curve and no dead zones on my MS FFB2 joystick. On the 109 during combat the stab is set somewhere between 0 and -35 during turning and between -40 and -65 when flying level, all depending on speed. I don't use flaps.

 

Hello, OpticFlow - thx for your setup! Seems everyone has their own conclusions, which often differ a lot. I'll try your settings out.

 

Do you have gun trigger(s) on joystick?

 

I have them on the throttle, as to avoid spoiling my aim when I squeeze them. A bit counterintuitive at first, but you get used to it.

 

Interesting thought; may try that. Maybe it will eliminate the "eagerness factor"...

 

109 has rudder trim set for cruise speed only, if you are flying faster or slower the ball indicator may well be out to one side and you are flying uncoordinated, slipping/sliding this makes accuracy harder

 

Interesting point - I'll keep watching that - thank you!

[Ribbon]

I had t16000 before and didn't have problem with wobbling, key is in maintaining healthy speed for better longitudinal stability.

[ShamrockOneFive]

One thing to do is look closely at what you're doing with the stick at the moment of firing.

 

I had a friend over, who played sims, and every time he went to shoot he tensed his hand up and missed the target. Every time. He got considerably better at shooting and staying on target when I pointed it out and he learned to not tense.

 

When you're lining up you want to make all of your adjustments nice and smooth and precise and not change anything when you pull the trigger. You want to walk the plane's nose across your target rather than correcting onto the target when firing. Not sure if that makes sense written but it makes a big difference in practice.

[Eclipse4349]

In the adjustment window for the pitch and roll axis, the term sensitivity is misleading. For a long time I left it at zero because both pitch and roll were already too sensitive, even with the input setting at a sensitivity of 1 in the Input Devices options menu. I had the same experience as you - any small adjustment was all over the place, even though I barely touched the stick.

 

When tuning the pitch and roll axis in the keymapping options menu, "sensitivity" is really an adjust to go from a linear response on the left (0), and a pronounced s-curve on the right (100). The more pronounced the s-curve, the less sensitive stick movement will be as you move away from the center of the axis range of motion, and the more it will "catch up" towards the outer extremes. The axis graph will show you the stick input it sees and the corresponding response of "where the control surface is". As you change sensitivity values you will see how the response changes through the range of motion. You will always get a full range of response as far as the control surfaces are concerned in the game, but this adjustment allows you to fine tune how much stick movement is required to get a response from the aircraft. You can dial in "the feel".

 

I have a CH Fighterstick, and zero deadzone with a sensitivity of 30 on both the pitch and roll axis feels great. YMMV, but definitely set the dead zone to zero and try increasing the sensitivity. I started with 50, and it was too "soft" for my liking. I moved it to 30 and haven't touched it since. If the stick does not center well and is registering off to one side when you aren't touching it, THEN add in enough deadzone to get it to read zero when you aren't moving it.

 

Good luck, hope that helped!

[Warpig]

The only good time to use a deadzone on your stick axes, is if you have a stick with play in it. The deadzone can be used so when you rest your hand, it doesn't affect your plane.

 

A good, tight, accurate stick won't need any deadzones.

[Wedgewood]

Do you have gun trigger(s) on joystick?

 

I have them on the throttle, as to avoid spoiling my aim when I squeeze them. A bit counterintuitive at first, but you get used to it.

Interesting technique.  I suffer from unwanted stick inputs when I try to fire on someone,  I do have a steady hand but it's something I still struggle with,  I tend to jerk the plane while shooting which causes me to overcorrect and fall off target with my sights.  I'll have to give this a try.  Does anyone else here use this technique?

[Eclipse4349]

Interesting technique. I suffer from unwanted stick inputs when I try to fire on someone, I do have a steady hand but it's something I still struggle with, I tend to jerk the plane while shooting which causes me to overcorrect and fall off target with my sights. I'll have to give this a try. Does anyone else here use this technique?

Personally I would rather train myself to be relaxed and smooth in my handling of the stick. I can't imagine not using the trigger to fire weapons. It is a novel workaround Though.

[Fern]

 

Try the swiffer jet extension. You'll be pro before long.....

Edited January 31, 2018 by fern

[SYN_Mike77]

check your rudder inputs in key settings. If you just added your pedals then the joystick twist may still be giving you unwanted input. I have a T16000 and don't get wobble. Still can't shoot worth a damn, but the stick is not the problem.

[gorice]

In the adjustment window for the pitch and roll axis, the term sensitivity is misleading. For a long time I left it at zero because both pitch and roll were already too sensitive, even with the input setting at a sensitivity of 1 in the Input Devices options menu. I had the same experience as you - any small adjustment was all over the place, even though I barely touched the stick.

 

When tuning the pitch and roll axis in the keymapping options menu, "sensitivity" is really an adjust to go from a linear response on the left (0), and a pronounced s-curve on the right (100). The more pronounced the s-curve, the less sensitive stick movement will be as you move away from the center of the axis range of motion, and the more it will "catch up" towards the outer extremes. The axis graph will show you the stick input it sees and the corresponding response of "where the control surface is". As you change sensitivity values you will see how the response changes through the range of motion. You will always get a full range of response as far as the control surfaces are concerned in the game, but this adjustment allows you to fine tune how much stick movement is required to get a response from the aircraft. You can dial in "the feel".

 

I have a CH Fighterstick, and zero deadzone with a sensitivity of 30 on both the pitch and roll axis feels great. YMMV, but definitely set the dead zone to zero and try increasing the sensitivity. I started with 50, and it was too "soft" for my liking. I moved it to 30 and haven't touched it since. If the stick does not center well and is registering off to one side when you aren't touching it, THEN add in enough deadzone to get it to read zero when you aren't moving it.

 

Good luck, hope that helped!

This is good advice. I would add that my shooting improved when I increased my 'sensitivity' (nonlinearity) setting. Try 30-50% on all axes for a start, and adjust based on how comfortable it is for shooting rather than maneuvers. You'll get used to the mushy feeling, and the higher degree of control will pay off.

[Lensman]

Do you have gun trigger(s) on joystick?

 

I have them on the throttle, as to avoid spoiling my aim when I squeeze them. A bit counterintuitive at first, but you get used to it.

 

 

You know that the real triggers WERE on the stick, right?

So much for 'simulation'!

[Wolfram-Harms]

Thank you all for your interesting inputs, gents!

 

Try the swiffer jet extension. You'll be pro before long.....

 

Haha, yeah, I was thinking about an extension for more precision - but I am a stone age man, when it comes to soldering electric wires.

I guess you would have to extend all grip button and hat switch wires.

Does anyone perhaps have photos about such works?

[Thad]

Do you have gun trigger(s) on joystick?

 

I have them on the throttle, as to avoid spoiling my aim when I squeeze them. A bit counterintuitive at first, but you get used to it.

 

Yes, this option will preclude any unintended input when pulling a trigger on the joystick.

[Sokol1]

You know that the real triggers WERE on the stick, right?

So much for 'simulation'!

 

Yes, but the real stick is attached to a few TON structure and to be moved require a good amount of force, press the trigger there difficult will cause "collateral effect".

 

In game world a typical "3-in-1" (e.g. T.16000M) is probable loose over desktop, has relatively light acting against grip movement, so press the trigger there can induce undesired movement.

Some users apply strong force of trigger, and some even broken the trigger physically. 

 

I give up to use 'F-16'ish' grips with dual stage trigger just because this, press the second stage require a amount of force that can mess things.

 

BTW  - An exception to the rule (trigger on grip) A6M Zeke weapons (20mm, 7.7mm) is fired by this thing that look's a bicycle brake on throttle.

 

http://web.ipmsusa3.org/sites/default/files/reviews/model-art-profile-13-mitsubishi-a6m-part-2/photo.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

@ OP, try add a improvised extension to your stick, and see if this improve you control. This will give you more linear displacement for the same small correction.

If "feel" the result positive make a proper extension.

Edited January 31, 2018 by Sokol1

[LLv24_SukkaVR]

Im using Warthog with 10cm extension with default stick settings and its very stable. No wobbling at all. Also using MFG Crosswind pedals which makes aiming a lot easier too. If i remember correctly, Thrustmaster TM 16000 has same sensor as Warthog?

[Sokol1]

If i remember correctly, Thrustmaster TM 16000 has same sensor as Warthog?

 

Yes same sensor (Melexis MLX90333 3D), but the gimbal mechanism is more "so so" with some mechanical play/deadzone.

[Wolfram-Harms]

Yes, this option will preclude any unintended input when pulling a trigger on the joystick.

 

Well, my "wobbling" already appears when I don't even pull the trigger.

It happens as soon as I fly tight turns in the Bf 109. I always fly with full throttle in combat, so the mass of the fighter

is accelerated to it's full speed - a strange wobbling around the longitudinal axis feels pretty much wrong to me,

cause the "pull-force" (the prop) is right at the forward end!

 

Yes, but the real stick is attached to a few TON structure and to be moved require a good amount of force, press the trigger there difficult will cause "collateral effect".

 

That's what I think too. But as I said: firing cannot be the reason - it also happens when I don't even touch the trigger yet.

 

Im using Warthog with 10cm extension with default stick settings and its very stable. No wobbling at all.  If i remember correctly, Thrustmaster TM 16000 has same sensor as Warthog?

 

Yes, should be the same high-res matrix. My pedals, by the way, are SAITEKs.

[=IL2AU=chappyj]

It's less likely to be hardware related than it is to be technique and flight

 

A lot if over correction is caused by not effectively predicting where the enemy will be in 1 2 3 seconds time and putting your sight at that location in advance in a consistent and stable flight path

 

You also mentioned tight turns at full power .... this is not actually the ideal way to fly a 109 . At lower speed aircraft do lose stability and in horizontal turns more rudder input is needed. This often introduces wobble if the rudder is being used in firing solutions. (Depending on your rudder input quality which is often poor)

 

Tight turns takes you into high aoa

At lower speed say after 2 tight turns with no dive you are going to approach stall speed pretty quickly

Edited January 31, 2018 by =IL2AU=chappyj

[GP*]

You should post a video. After the latest patch, excessive wobbling is likely due to flying technique. 

[ShamrockOneFive]

You know that the real triggers WERE on the stick, right?

So much for 'simulation'!

 

Not if it's an A6M Zero

 

Trigger on the throttle.

[Warpig]

I don't know about anybody else, but it's pulling the trigger that is one of the most satisfying parts of an air combat sim. I couldn't imagine having the guns anywhere but under my trigger finger.

Edited February 1, 2018 by Warpig

[Wolfram-Harms]

At lower speed aircraft do lose stability and in horizontal turns more rudder input is needed. This often introduces wobble if the rudder is being used in firing solutions. (

 

Tight turns takes you into high aoa

 

I don't use rudder much at all; for tight turns I bank the craft hard and perform them with elevators.

Since the aircraft all feel too light for my taste, the rudder only makes aiming even more problematic IMHO.

What is "aoa" ?

 

You should post a video. After the latest patch, excessive wobbling is likely due to flying technique. 

 

Good idea. I'll see that I catch some of the best moments and make a short vid.

Edited February 1, 2018 by Wolfram-Harms

[SYN_Vorlander]

Olham my friend, you need new game hardware.

 

1. new ace maker stick

2. new ace maker rudder pedals

 

Salute

[Wolfram-Harms]

Olham my friend, you need new game hardware.

 

Vorlander, old friend! How's tricks?

I'm not rich, like you - the old hardware must do. I guess it is rather my flying style.

Coming from RoF, I may have to change someting here and there...

[BlitzPig_EL]

WW2 airplanes take a much smoother hand than the WW1 kites do, so this may be some of your issue.

[Wolfram-Harms]

Okay, here is a short video to demonstrate the "wobbling".

(Pls don't comment on the shooting - I will work that out once the woblling is gone. So far I can hit  barn doors - when they do not evade! )

 

[ShamrockOneFive]

Okay, here is a short video to demonstrate the "wobbling".

(Pls don't comment on the shooting - I will work that out once the woblling is gone. So far I can hit  barn doors - when they do not evade! )

 

 

Yessh, it almost looks like you're flying with a keyboard.

 

Maybe you need to set your curves to be more linear. It looks like you get no response on the stick and then 80% response at all once. It should be smooth.

Edited February 1, 2018 by ShamrockOneFive

[No601_Swallow]

You're also going super slooooooow. I wobble just like that at low speeds, with every aircraft, I think. I thought it was normal. (Having said that, I use a Thrustmaster Thingy T160000 too!)

[Eclipse4349]

Yessh, it almost looks like you're flying with a keyboard.

 

Maybe you need to set your curves to be more linear. It looks like you get no response on the stick and then 80% response at all once. It should be smooth.

Yeah it does look to me like the "sensitivity" curve is the problem. It's hard to tell since we can't see what is going on with the stick at the same time.

 

I would adjust the curve and rest fly at different values, maybe try 30,then 60, and see how different it feels. Then go from there to fine tune it. As I said earlier, I settled on 30 for pitch and roll and it feels great. Still a linear enough response early on in the curve that it is consistent. And most times you won't use full deflection on the elevator anyway (in my experience, at least. There are many aircraft I've not flown yet).

[216th_Jordan]

I don't use rudder much at all; for tight turns I bank the craft hard and perform them with elevators.

'

This is a reason for your wobble:

1. High Angle of Attack (AoA) cause a severe P-factor effect -> the plane yaws to the side

2. Tight turns with full engine rpm cause the 'gyroscopic effect' If you spin a disk for example: the faster it goes the more it wants to stay in its position. If you force the disk to change direction it will roll in a perpendicular direction additional to the direction you try to force it -> if you pull up the plane yaws to the side.

 

This is why you need to apply rudder when going into tight turns (turn direction also important)

 

 

Apart from that: Don't use too high sensitivity for any axis because when the deflection of the stick gets greater you lose precision.

 

Just looked at the video: It appears you still have a big deadzone around the center. Try to set it to 4% max and see how that goes.

Edited February 1, 2018 by 216th_Jordan

[Eclipse4349]

As an experiment, try turning on rudder assist and see if the problem is as severe. Low speed plus not using the rudder to "stay on the ball" (counteract the forces Jordan described and keep the slip indicator centered) might be contributing to the issue. Turning on rudder assist will quickly show you if this is the case.

 

On a side note, keeping the ball centered will help you accuracy when firing, and reduce drag, helping you keep your precious energy, and regain it faster. The rudder is not insignificant!

[FuriousMeow]

The TM 16000 is no more high precision than most other current day HOTAS on the market. It's just a 16 bit hall effect on x and y axis, which even the Saitek X55/X56 sticks have.

 

Looks more like you are recentering your stick or letting off a lot to shoot and then yanking back again.

[Wolfram-Harms]

Yessh, it almost looks like you're flying with a keyboard. It should be smooth.

 

Shouldn't it?

 

You're also going super slooooooow. I wobble just like that at low speeds, with every aircraft, I think. I thought it was normal. (Having said that, I use a Thrustmaster Thingy T160000 too!)

 

It also wobbles when I "drive" fast.

 

Yeah it does look to me like the "sensitivity" curve is the problem. I would adjust the curve and rest fly at different values, maybe try 30,then 60, and see how different it feels.

This is why you need to apply rudder when going into tight turns (turn direction also important)

Apart from that: Don't use too high sensitivity for any axis because when the deflection of the stick gets greater you lose precision.

...you still have a big deadzone around the center. Try to set it to 4% max and see how that goes.

 

Okay, thanks for your input - I'll try it out in steps of 20 first, then fine-tune SENSITIVITY from there.

Rudder in a right-turn applied "right", I guess? Or must I counter the effect?

 

Turning on rudder assist will quickly show you if this is the case.

...keeping the ball centered will help you accuracy when firing, and reduce drag, helping you keep your precious energy, and regain it faster. The rudder is not insignificant!

 

Alright, if there is a "Rudder Assist", I'll try that. Didn't even know this.

My worst fears come true - it may be even more complex to fly and fight and aim and shoot at the same time, than I had expected.