Is it worth upgrading from Rift too Samsung oddyssey?

[SCG_motoadve]

Jason Williams said there will be no more development regarding VR ,(which is surprising since IL2 BOS shines in VR) so no hope for the Samsung?

[Dakpilot]

Jason Williams said there will be no more development regarding VR ,(which is surprising since IL2 BOS shines in VR) so no hope for the Samsung?

 

That's not quite a fair quote, pretty sure he said they have optimised as well as they can as regards performance and further improvements need to be on hardware and VR software/tech

 

Cheers, Dakpilot

[A_radek]

Jason Williams said there will be no more development regarding VR ,(which is surprising since IL2 BOS shines in VR) so no hope for the Samsung?

Did he really say that? Or was this what he replied when people asked about further optimizations and newer technology for VR?

 

Thing is. I can understand why they are shelving the VR part of the game at the moment. They need to prioritize and other areas are right now further behind. Netcode and Dserver for example needs a total overhaul. As I understand it, it's 10 year old code and requires a few months of complete re-write, leading to needed changes in other areas. This would greatly improve the multiplayer part of the game but it won't  bring them any extra money. At the same time they need coders to keep creating content that does. It's a relatively small team spread very thin after all.. 

[ICDP]

I only had a quick flight around the Caucasus in the TF51D and FPS seemed about the same as in BOS.

 

No deferred lighting, no DOF.

 

As for BOS and the IPD problem, for me it is not a deal breaker  because it can be mitigated to a significant degree.  I see no issues with scale on the Odyssey with the 3Dmgito mod.

[dburne]

That's not quite a fair quote, pretty sure he said they have optimised as well as they can as regards performance and further improvements need to be on hardware and VR software/tech

 

Cheers, Dakpilot

 

That is about how I remember it as well.

 

Personally for me the one thing I wish they could do at some point, is to have native Oculus support. It would also better expose the sim to the large Oculus community.  

[BeastyBaiter]

Today I grabbed an Samsung Odyssey as a potential replacement for my Rift. Playing DCS 2.5 with my Rift and struggling to read instruments finally pushed me over the edge. The Odyssey works just fine in DCS and even in my Oculus Home games via Revive (robo recall, From other Suns) but fails pretty miserably in BoS. BoX has my IPD set at around 250mm wide instead of about 64mm by default I'd guess, the 3DMigoto mod changes that to about 20cm. Sure it's an improvement, but still completely unplayable. I tried bumping the xshift setting in it from the default 0.02 to 0.05 and though a lot closer to being correct, it also resulted in the angles of everything being skewed horribly. I suddenly had two left wings and they were at radically different angles (my 190 had a 20 degree swept wing with one eye and straight with the other). So this IPD like setting, at least as I am trying to use it, does not solve the IPD issue. If anyone has any suggested settings, I'd love to hear them.

Edited February 1, 2018 by BeastyBaiter

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

I guess you got to count on icdp sharing his "perfectly working" settings.

 

Now another thing you can play around with is the idp in the startup.Cfg ,which you then can put to read-only, and restart the game. From 0.68 to 2.5? Just an idea, I hope you get it solved. Good luck beasty!

 

P. S. Keep us up to date on your progress please, I'm also interested in the Odyssey!

Edited February 2, 2018 by SCG_Red_Wolf

[BeastyBaiter]

I've decided to return the Odyssey. Despite having better lenses, more vibrant colors and less of a gap between pixels, it has lower actual resolution. It seems to be using the Vive trick of sharing 2 of 3 subpixels with each neighboring pixel instead of having 3 subpixels (red, green, blue) per pixel as the Rift has. The result is reading text is harder and objects are even harder to ID. Don't get me wrong, the Odyssey looks gorgeous compared to the Rift. The greatly reduced god rays and better colors really make it superb. The built in volume control on the headset is also a great feature. But the point in the upgrade was to read cockpit instruments and ID targets easier. The Odyssey makes it harder.

 

Though I never got it working in BoS, I did spend 12+ hours tinkering with DCS and constantly swapping between the two for comparison. The Rift is just better in DCS (not by a lot, but the difference is clear) and I think it's safe to assume the same in BoS. Nevermind the added GPU load the Odyssey has due to having more pixels. Pretty disappointed TBH. I expected a modest but important upgrade. Instead I ended up with a downgrade.

[dburne]

Good that you shared your experience for those contemplating going that route.

[coconut]

The rift also has subpixel sharing on red and blue.

[dburne]

Likely the next " somewhat decent" upgrade is going to come from HTC Vive, with the Vive Pro. 

Only problem is, from all indications it will be rather pricey and at least initially just sold by itself, requiring the buyers to already have the Vive base station/sensors.

 

So may be an option early on for those that already have Vive. Whether the improvements will be worth the cost of admission remains to be seen. AFAIK pricing has not been set yet, or at least made public.

[ICDP]

The rift also has subpixel sharing on red and blue.

 

Don't let facts get in the way

 

I have posted screenshots (from another game) showing Odyssey has a noticeably sharper image due to increased resolution.  The only thing I can think is if the IPD was wrong or some other setting was affecting things.

Edited February 2, 2018 by ICDP

[BeastyBaiter]

I pulled it out of the box earlier today and took a closer look. Somebody mentioned the possibility of a softer focus. Upon inspection, that seems to be the case. The Rift has a very sharp image and clearly visible SDE because of it. The good news is that allows for easily reading small text, like cockpit instruments so long as the text takes up a few pixels. The odyssey seems to blur it slightly (both eyes, so seems deliberate). This almost eliminates SDE but also blurs out small details, such as the difference between letters and numbers. It's a real shame, as it does have better resolution but the blurring more than counteracts it. Don't get me wrong, if we ignore reading text, the Odyssey has clearly superior lenses and screens. I think it's also a little more comfortable and I like the tracking system better too. But I can't read the MFD's in the Harrier or Ka-50, nevermind the IPD problems in BoS. The Rift has neither issue, though it isn't as pretty as with the Odyssey.

[ICDP]

It's really strange, my goto test for sharpness and readability of cockpit instruments is the Mil Mi-8 cold start mission in DCS.  More specifically the top left one (screenshot corcled in red)

 

This is will the game SS set to 1.0.  With the Rift CV1 it was unreadable for me even with 1.5 SS set in SteamVR (not Oculus tray tools), with Odyssey it is jreadable at 1.5 SS.  I had to go to SS 2.0 with CV1 in Steam VR for it to be readable.  Add to this the reduced SDE and reduced godrays with Odyssey and I was getting noticeable IQ improvement.  Not stellar or next gen levels, but definately improved.

Edited February 2, 2018 by ICDP

[BeastyBaiter]

My test involved the stores MFD page in the Harrier (both day and night missions) and the overhead switches in the Ka-50 (nav lights specifically). Both are just barely readable with the Rift with 1.3 PD set in game (steamVR not used with Rift, OTT never installed). With the Odyssey, they were a blurry mess and completely unreadable with 1.0 in steamVR and 1.3 PD in game. Switching it around and using the steamVR PD settings instead gave a similar result. Doing 1.0 PD for both steamVR and in game gave a far worse image on both headsets, so I know with certainty that my settings were being used. It is possible I ended up with a borked headset. Maybe UPS dropped it somewhere along the way to the store I bought it from. But both eyes were equally blurry for text, not asymmetric as you'd expect if it were dropped.

 

It's also possible it is purely a problem with DCS but I didn't look into that too hard. I looked at instrument readability in DCS and playability for my Rift games. The latter was pretty good, much better than expected tbh but the former was a real problem and the only reason I tried switching headsets. I didn't look too hard at BoS due to IPD issues I wasn't able to resolve easily. I'm sure I could have fixed that given more tinkering though. I should point out there wasn't any squinting involved to tell a difference in readability. It was very clearly better on the Rift. I spent nearly all day yesterday and part of today trying to get the expected better resolution out of the Odyssey but it just never happened. I just got back from the store returning it, thankfully Microsoft has a good return policy, no restocking fees or hassle.

 

 

Edit: It's worth mentioning that I did like the headset overall. It's comfortable, more glasses friendly, easier to setup and has that lovely volume controller on the headset itself. The vibrancy of the display is clearly better too and the SDE is vastly reduced (practically invisible). If I didn't care about reading instruments, I would have been very happy with the switch. I can still recommend the headset to new VR users, just not flight sim fans.

Edited February 3, 2018 by BeastyBaiter

[chiliwili69]

The first (and only) Odyssey VR test was reported in the benchmark thread and I replied with this:

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/29322-measuring-rig-performance-common-baseline/?p=542360

 

It seems that Odyssey uses different internal supersampling. So 1.7 in Steam VR doesn´t mean the same in the Rift that in the Odyssey.

 

And as it was shown here, the SS ratio affects a lot to read text:

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/30771-how-much-ss-desirable-image-quality-samples/

 

Being said that, if we want to make a fair comparison for reading text with the Rift vs. Odyssey, we should use a different SS ratio (only in SteamVR).

 

For example, if we use SteamVR_SS=1.7 with the Rift, the rendered pixels are 7.309.344 , and as the Rift display has 2.592.000 pixels, the total absolute SS is 7309344/259200= 2.82.

Therefore, since the Odyssey has a display with 4.608.000 pixels, to have an absolute SS=2.82, we should render 12.994.560 pixels. To achieve that we should use SteamVR_SS=2.6

So, in summary, take a picture through the lense with the Rift using SS=1.7, take another with the Odyssey using SS=2.6

 

 

There is another criteria to compare devices which is based in using same rendered pixels (instead of total absolute ratio). If we use this criteria we should use SS=1.4 with Odyssey (about 7.1 million rendered pixels) and SS=1.7 with the Rift (about 7.3 million rendered pixels

[Fran13]

I wont go back to a monitor...Tried 24h the Samusung Odyssey and definitely I prefer Oculus Rift ..waiting  Oculus 2.0 

Edited February 3, 2018 by Fran13

[dburne]

I wont go back to a monitor...Tried 24h the Samusung Odyssey and definitely I prefer Oculus Rift ..waiting  Oculus 2.0 

 

 

 

You and me both, I can't wait to hear some news on CV2 from Oculus hopefully later this year.

[SCG_motoadve]

Me too, since I got VR I have never played other than VR, not going back.

Now when the 2.0 and better resolutions VR headsets comes out, will we need more powerfull video cards?

 

See how expensive is Supersampling performance wise with current VR headsets.

 

Hope the newer headsets are optimized, and we don't have to turn down lots of graphics options to be able to use them.

This hobby will start to become quite expensive to be able to keep up.

[dburne]

Me too, since I got VR I have never played other than VR, not going back.

Now when the 2.0 and better resolutions VR headsets comes out, will we need more powerfull video cards?

 

 

 

Hard to say at this point, if I had to guess I would say we can just about count on it.

Now if Oculus can do something with foveated rendering and eye tracking for CV2, then maybe not as much.

[coconut]

 

 

Now when the 2.0 and better resolutions VR headsets comes out, will we need more powerfull video cards?

Maybe not. Part of the reason why people use supersampling beyond the builtin one is to compensate for the low display resolution.

Hard to say at this point, if I had to guess I would say we can just about count on it.

Now if Oculus can do something with foveated rendering and eye tracking for CV2, then maybe not as much.

 

I expect games would have to support it explicitly, and I have doubts this would be a high prio item for 1CGS.

[BeastyBaiter]

Yep, foveated rendering will have to be built into the graphics engine. I don't see BoX or DCS getting that. For higher resolutions, if we use higher native resolution to cut back on PD increases, then we should be ok. Of course, we'll still want some boosted PD, cause more resolution and fewer jaggies is always better. So I suspect most of us will be doing a GPU upgrade along with the VR upgrade regardless of if our current GPU can run it at its native resolution or not.

 

In any case, I'm most looking forwards to the Rift CV2. After my lackluster experience with the Odyssey and the Vive Pro using the same displays while simultaneously continuing its full retard pricing, the CV2 is the only new headset I know of worth considering. And there hasn't been any sort of official confirmation that such a thing is in the works, though all signs suggest one is coming sometime in the next year. Hopefully Oculus gives a confirmation and some details at their next event.

Edited February 3, 2018 by BeastyBaiter

[dburne]

 

I expect games would have to support it explicitly, and I have doubts this would be a high prio item for 1CGS.

 

Ah now have faith, we are talking a ways out anyway - who knows what might and might not be developed for VR down the road...

 

 

After all, it was really not that long ago that we were not even thinking of VR with this sim... now look at it, probably the best VR implementation I have seen for a game that did not have it.

And judging by these forums, a very much growing contingent of VR players for IL-2. 

[dburne]

 

In any case, I'm most looking forwards to the Rift CV2. After my lackluster experience with the Odyssey and the Vive Pro using the same displays while simultaneously continuing its full retard pricing, the CV2 is the only new headset I know of worth considering. And there hasn't been any sort of official confirmation that such a thing is in the works, though all signs suggest one is coming sometime in the next year. Hopefully Oculus gives a confirmation and some details at their next event.

 

Actually there has been, has just been a while since it has been discussed. I don't have the link now, but Nate Williams of Oculus recently talked about the CV2. Did not share any details, but left no doubt it was still in the plan.

 

Oculus is obviously keeping things pretty tight lipped in regards to a CV2.

I think we will hear something either at the upcoming big FB event in couple of months, or OC5 later in the year.

[MajorDogbite]

It's really strange, my goto test for sharpness and readability of cockpit instruments is the Mil Mi-8 cold start mission in DCS.  More specifically the top left one (screenshot corcled in red)

 

This is will the game SS set to 1.0.  With the Rift CV1 it was unreadable for me even with 1.5 SS set in SteamVR (not Oculus tray tools), with Odyssey it is jreadable at 1.5 SS.  I had to go to SS 2.0 with CV1 in Steam VR for it to be readable.  Add to this the reduced SDE and reduced godrays with Odyssey and I was getting noticeable IQ improvement.  Not stellar or next gen levels, but definately improved.

It quite readable with VR 1.5 in game, on the Rift, which appears to be the same as Oculus's pxel density. Why would you use Steam VR (openvr) for DCS with a Rift when it supports the Rift natively?

Edited February 5, 2018 by MajorDogbite

[BeastyBaiter]

Missed that bit, but it's actually worse than that. DCS doesn't use steamVR at all for the Rift unless you start playing with config files. The reason you couldn't read it with those steamVR settings is because DCS completely ignored them.

[ClarkFable]

I don't see how people can think the Rift comes close to the Odyssey in terms of IQ or resolution. Maybe if you are comparing within an unsupported game. But the improved resolution and contrast are impossible to miss on (the admittedly few at this point)  the games that support Oddysey at full resolution. 

[dburne]

Missed that bit, but it's actually worse than that. DCS doesn't use steamVR at all for the Rift unless you start playing with config files. The reason you couldn't read it with those steamVR settings is because DCS completely ignored them.

 

Technically now with 2.50 you can.

They added a switch to force to use Steam VR.

 

"New option --force_steam_VR - to force VR driver to use steam."

 

Though I am not sure why anyone with a Rift would want to use Steam VR, as it has native Oculus support.

[katdog5]

Technically now with 2.50 you can.

They added a switch to force to use Steam VR.

 

"New option --force_steam_VR - to force VR driver to use steam."

 

Though I am not sure why anyone with a Rift would want to use Steam VR, as it has native Oculus support.

 

 

yeah saw that. I wonder how that would work and if any benefit 

[ICDP]

It quite readable with VR 1.5 in game, on the Rift, which appears to be the same as Oculus's pxel density. Why would you use Steam VR (openvr) for DCS with a Rift when it supports the Rift natively?

 

 

Missed that bit, but it's actually worse than that. DCS doesn't use steamVR at all for the Rift unless you start playing with config files. The reason you couldn't read it with those steamVR settings is because DCS completely ignored them.

 

Apologies but I failed to convey my point guys.  It is to show that at identical settings the Odyssey should be more readable than the Rift and yet Beastybaiter is seeing the opposite.  When I had my Rift I used Oculus Tray tools to set a default 1.5 SS for all games.  With the Odyssey I use Steam VR to do the same setting.  The reason I don't use in game options for this is because a single universal setting for all games makes things easier to manage.

 

I will test the Odyssey again using the in game SS at 1.5.

 

I believe BeastyBaiter has a faulty unit because at no point should a Rift CV1 be sharper than an Odyseey given identical settings.

Edited February 6, 2018 by ICDP

[chiliwili69]

 

 

When I had my Rift I used Oculus Tray tools to set a default 1.5 SS for all games.  With the Odyssey I use Steam VR to do the same setting. 

 

BTW, 1.5 SS in OTT is not the same than 1.5 SS in SteamVR.

 

The relationship is SteamVR_SS =  OTT_SS * OTT_SS

 

Therefore 1.5 SS in OTT is equivalent to 2.25 SS in SteamVR

[ICDP]

BTW, 1.5 SS in OTT is not the same than 1.5 SS in SteamVR.

 

The relationship is SteamVR_SS =  OTT_SS * OTT_SS

 

Therefore 1.5 SS in OTT is equivalent to 2.25 SS in SteamVR

 

Thanks for clarifying, it means the Odyssey is giving a clearer image with less SS.  While we are not talking pure clarity, it is a noticeable improvement IMHO.  The image does still suffer from SDE (though it is reduced compared to CV1) but the PPD being around 30% higher does help.

[kaboki]

Sorry guys for abandoning my thread, too much going on in my life. But im back now. I got the oddyssey, and its no VR revolution but it certainly looks a little bit better than my rift so im sticking with it. But Il2 is just not playable, feels like im inside a small toy plane, but I was expecting that since it was mentioned in this thread, but Its really annoying. Another problem I have is that Steam VR dont remember my setup, so everytime I start steam I have to do the room setup thing over again(REALLY ANNOYING). Anyway thanks all for your insight and feedback in this thread:). Was it worth the upgrade,,,, I would say for me it was because every small little improvement Is welcome for me, but I would not reccomend it for others unless you just want microscopic imrovements.

[5280magpie]

I dont know if the rift is any different but for me the lack of any kind of gamma control in the odyssey( or any WMR headset for that matter) is a big negative. 

And if theres no more vr development planned for IL2 then I for one wont be investing in any of the future il2 games. So there! :/

[WIS-Redcoat]

He never said “no more development”.  His comment was about the VR industry at large and it’s immature state which demands tons of bespoke effort.