Monthly FM Topic

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

Hello everyone,

 

Ever since earlier FM problems, I have always had the impression that devolopers do not

Interact as much with our community as we would like it. Apart from the language barrier that is obviously there, Devs just do not have the time to read through pages of forum material.

When Jason closed down the “questions for developers thread” a somewhat chaotic channel to the Devs got shot down with it.

Due to all of these circumstances, I was thinking that it might be nice if we had something like a moderated topic of the month that we could have Mr. Petrovich reply to. I am thinking something like a dev diary, but a lot shorter. Maybe just a few sentences or a standpoint from the Devs. Something that is not too long and not much additional work for the Devs.

I see many interesting discussions emerging in this section. I do not know if there are attempts to channel this info via private messages to the Devs in any way or not and I am sure many of this forum’s participants would like to know about an official view on some topics. An example could be the WEP on the 109.

I believe there are many people here that are knowledgeable and could do additional research, but they simply do not know the “status quo” on issues on the dev side.

 

Ok, so what do I suggest?

 

I would like to contact Jason to ask him if he could do something like a monthly FM talk with Devs. This would mean this community posts one question to the Devs publicly on this thread that An Peteovich answers to (briefly or not) There would be a pole deciding which topic would be presented. As I have native Russian speakers in my family who could do the translation. The question that is asked should of course be discussed in advance. But would be send by one person to Jason, and after that posted in the respective thread.

 

I am going to go ahead with this and contact Jason.

If you have any suggestions or comments please let me know. Thanks!

[Panthera]

Sounds good Schwarze

 

IMHO the two most pressing issues that need some looking into are the discrepancies in turn times and the engine WEP limits you mentioned. So I'll put in a vote for those two

Edited January 29, 2018 by Panthera

[L3Pl4K]

Good Idea.

[RoteDreizehn]

indeed that make sense - they could pay more attention to us. Also Start and Landing is really too easy. In this Way its an arcarde game for me. Shouldnt be an complaint! Hope they will improve that.

[DD_Arthur]

So it'll be like a beauty pagent for [edited] 

 

Every month the forum will be able to vote for their favourite [edited] and they'll be able to ask Petrovich a question which will insult either his intelligence or his nation?

 

What a fantastic idea!!

 

Hmmm....who will be my first nomination?  Lets see;  Panthera has been making a late charge for the top spot lately- but accusing the devs of bias - yawn - is hardly an original theme.

 

How about the OP or the guy posting above me?  [edited]

 

You know, for old times sake I'm nominating [edited].   He won't ask a question.  He'll just challenge Petrovich to twenty minutes on the Berloga server!

Edited January 30, 2018 by SYN_Haashashin

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

 

 

Sounds good Schwarze IMHO the two most pressing issues that need some looking into are the discrepancies in turn times and the engine WEP limits you mentioned. So I'll put in a vote for those two

 

Thanks! I am not particularly looking for topics in this thread. I was rather looking for suggestions on how we could make this work well. The topics would be decided on in a poll. So the message is out to Jason. I hope I will get an answer soon

[Fauster]

So it'll be like a beauty pagent for [edited] 

 

Every month the forum will be able to vote for their favourite [edited] and they'll be able to ask Petrovich a question which will insult either his intelligence or his nation?

 

What a fantastic idea!!

 

Hmmm....who will be my first nomination?  Lets see;  Panthera has been making a late charge for the top spot lately- but accusing the devs of bias - yawn - is hardly an original theme.

 

How about the OP or the guy posting above me?  [edited]

 

You know, for old times sake I'm nominating [edited].   He won't ask a question.  He'll just challenge Petrovich to twenty minutes on the Berloga server!

 

Nothing like a little hate and discontent to get a post rolling 

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Still takes too much time away from actual work on important things.

 

If you are eager to get answers why not just PM it to Han with factual evidence of your testing?

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

The problem is that valuable insights usually disappear in the noise of baseless complaints. 

 

FM discussion must be of the form "x parameter in game has value y, but z source says it should be w." 

 

Anything other than that destroys the thread very quickly. The rules must be rather strict.

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

The problem is that valuable insights usually disappear in the noise of baseless complaints.

 

FM discussion must be of the form "x parameter in game has value y, but z source says it should be w."

 

Anything other than that destroys the thread very quickly. The rules must be rather strict.

No these are the rules for reports. I don’t want a forum report

Still takes too much time away from actual work on important things.

 

If you are eager to get answers why not just PM it to Han with factual evidence of your testing?

To drop some lines once a month? Really?

[Dakpilot]

Guys, I have no time for DISCUSSION. I've responded on exact claims. Every questions here - looks like a sign of distrust to our FM engeneers.

 

My reason with this respond on claims was to show you that you MAY trust our engeneers. If it's not enought - I've no chance to make you trust.

 

I've no time to solve EACH your single distrust to our FM. I've tryed to make a common solution - show you that you may trust to our FM in common. IF your game is in endless suspicions to FM and endless claiming - supported by "your understanding" of historical sources or only by "your vision" - no, we don't sell SUCH game in our store. Sorry.

We sell game which is good described in Developers diary, not more, not less.

I cant support your demand on endless TALKS on FM. Sorry.

 

So, while my attempt have failed - I'll not respond anymore. It's useless.

 

While the idea is a good, one quite simply they do not have time to argue with and explain to people that are unaware of Aviation/aerodynamics and engineering how things work

 

history has shown that even when they do interact people still refuse to believe them, get caught up with the very real language barrier and resort to insults

 

the whole procedure has fallen down multiple times and is unproductive and if anything disruptive to production

 

make a good report and post it in the correct (non discussion) section, if it is good it will be acted on when there is opportunity in Dev cycle without interrupting carefully planned work flow and deadlines

 

This has been shown to work multiple times with good info 

 

Cheers, Dakpilot

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

make a good report and post it in the correct (non discussion) section, if it is good it will be acted on when there is opportunity in Dev cycle without interrupting carefully planned work flow and deadlines

 

Everyone seems to believe that this thing is supposed to be a Devs vs Community thing, where the community says we found xy and it is wrong thing.

That is exactly what I wanted to avoid. No, no FM claims reloaded. Why does it always have to be "this is claim X please prove that you model it right? No, no one said anything liek this if you read my post. Toxicity in this forum has become so much the norm that people are struggling to assume anything else...

Right now we have 8 pages only on fuel.

I was thinking Petrovich drops 3 lines on fuel like:

The difference between the german synthetic fuel and russian xy octane fuel is currently not modelled. We do not intend to do so...

No entering into discussions. Just really dropping a few lines on a pre picked subject which is hot in the FM section at the time.

 

If yo check out the Russian forum you can see that Petrovich posts a lot and joins discussions. Someone asks about mixture for example Petrovich replies

 

"In addition to the power drop, there are still interruptions in operation, when the composition of the mixture approaches the boundaries for the stability of combustion.

There is no smoke and smoke, yes. Plans to do this are (120-diaries). But the timing has not yet been determined."

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fforum.il2sturmovik.ru%2F&sandbox=1

 

Something like this. Once a month. For the English speakers. Too much work? Too toxic? Really??

Edited January 30, 2018 by II/JG17_SchwarzeDreizehn

[Dakpilot]

Too toxic..yes

 

blame the ones constantly implying Dev bias instead of supporting them

 

Too many people here do not have an open mind enough for sensible discourse, history proves it time and again, sad but true

 

Dive limits are a perfect example, the answers have been given countless times , people will still not except it, Dev's do not have time to continually re-address issues

 

The language barrier is also a really significant one, leading to misunderstandings and discontent, misquotes and angst

 

Petrovich's comments in your example simply reiterate what was said in DD's which are also in English and we get them quite frequently

 

I still agree with the idea, but a simple answer or statement is rarely enough, with explanations in minutiae with docs demanded from Dev's, when they do not have time to go into the depth demanded they are accused of not listening/communicating

 

Explaining complicated FM/systems in a coherent way for easy understanding in a second language is not a trivial task, nor should be done by community manager or non expert, this leads to even more trouble...

 

A once a month second language "FM Discussion" actually IS too much work for lead engineer in small team with hectic schedule

 

we already get more feedback than most/many others game companies

 

all only my opinion/feelings 

 

Cheers, Dakpilot

[Panthera]

So no form of criticism allowed is what you're saying Dakpilot?

[Dakpilot]

So no form of criticism allowed is what you're saying Dakpilot?

 

What? where did I ever say that

 

Any form of criticism or discussion is fine (if polite) and backed up with some sense or evidence even better

 

Cheers, Dakpilot

[molodoi]

So no form of criticism allowed is what you're saying Dakpilot?

 

 

make a good report and post it in the correct (non discussion) section, if it is good it will be acted on when there is opportunity in Dev cycle without interrupting carefully planned work flow and deadlines

 

[Panthera]

What? where did I ever say that

 

Any form of criticism or discussion is fine (if polite) and backed up with some sense or evidence even better

 

Cheers, Dakpilot

 

I think many people are very polite in their criticism and also provide both evidence and good sense for their argument only to be accused of bias afterwards.

[Dakpilot]

This thread is about monthly FM discussion with Dev's

 

the best way to get something changed is good bug report

 

I say nothing about stopping FM discussion threads and or criticism of game elements/features

 

rather that past experiences in my opinion say this is a waste of Dev time

 

Cheers, Dakpilot

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

To drop some lines once a month? Really?

They already talked about a lot FM things in the past on DD. FM updates, fw 190 fix and the recent Yak 7 FM are primary examples. They dont engage in discussions which for large portion of the comunity is pointless.

[=RvE=Windmills]

They already talked about a lot FM things in the past on DD. FM updates, fw 190 fix and the recent Yak 7 FM are primary examples. They dont engage in discussions which for large portion of the comunity is pointless.

 

 

Probably the difference of opinion here is that a certain group believes there is consensus that certain things are absolutely wrong, while others believe this is far from proven.

 

It would make sense to involve devs if there was actual agreement about these issues, dragging the devs into endless arguments is just pointless distraction.

[[I./JG62]steppa]

 

"[...] Devs just do not have the time to read through pages of forum material.

[...] a moderated topic of the month that we could have Mr. Petrovich reply to. [..] just a few sentences or a standpoint from the Devs. Something that is not too long and not much additional work for the Devs.

[...] This would mean this community posts one question to the Devs publicly on this thread that An Peteovich answers to (briefly or not) There would be a poll deciding which topic would be presented. As I have native Russian speakers in my family who could do the translation. The question that is asked should of course be discussed in advance. But would be send by one person to Jason, and after that posted in the respective thread."

Why does this hardly sound like a discussion with the developer team and why is it the germans fault?

 

With proper moderation and focus a short Q&A-type format could be sucsessfull imo.

First question could be: Who is going to reduce massive amounts of accured overtime while enjoying a little raise(hopefully)?

 

Blessings!

especially to you Mr. Petrovich

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

Probably the difference of opinion here is that a certain group believes there is consensus that certain things are absolutely wrong, while others believe this is far from proven.

 

It would make sense to involve devs if there was actual agreement about these issues, dragging the devs into endless arguments is just pointless distraction.

 

 

 

Still takes too much time away from actual work on important things. If you are eager to get answers why not just PM it to Han with factual evidence of your testing?

 

 

Anyone ever really look at the link I provided? An Petrovich actually does reply. A lot. Discuses things with people. On the Russian forum. I love how the first response from people is always "no" and it is "senseless". Maybe you like the toxic environment and want to indulge in it. I don´t.

 

So here we go again. I advise you read before posting

 

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fforum.il2sturmovik.ru%2F

[=RvE=Windmills]

I'm going to assume he does that in his free time and because speaking Russian doesn't require a constant effort of translating his thoughts and/or source material?

 

There is somewhat larger threshold for involving devs when the effort of communicating in English is much more significant. If there's serious enough reasons to make that effort worthwhile then sure, but that still seems very much debatable.

 

That's why it just makes more sense to have a thorough bug/issue report for them, concisely presenting the issue for them to comment on.

 

Also, if he's already answering questions and you can translate things into Russian why not just ask him right now? What's the need to make it an official thing and have a fight over what question to ask each month?

Edited January 30, 2018 by Windmills

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

I'm going to assume he does that in his free time and because speaking Russian doesn't require a constant effort of translating his thoughts and/or source material? There is somewhat larger threshold for involving devs when the effort of communicating in English is much more significant. If there's serious enough reasons to make that effort worthwhile then sure, but that still seems very much debatable. That's why it just makes more sense to have a thorough bug/issue report for them, concisely presenting the issue for them to comment on. 3) Also, if he's already answering questions and you can translate things into Russian why not just ask him right now? What's the need to make it an official thing and have a fight over what question to ask each month?

 

Well it´s called a discussion. I want it to be a discussion of the community and not a you are wrong i am right bug report or anything of that sort. Because having discussions openly on a forum will acutally (hopefully) build a debate culture which will help everyone (yes, you too DDArthur). I don´t think the concept and benefit of a debate which is actually civilized and supervised, should be hard to understand.

 

 

What's the need to make it an official thing and have a fight over what question to ask each month?

 

The man with the hammer sees nails everywhere I guess...

Edited January 30, 2018 by II/JG17_SchwarzeDreizehn

[OrLoK]

If you check out the recent interview with Jason you'll see he (and the team) is aware of all the issues that irritate us.

 

As players, we can be a very demanding beasts and often dont appreciate exactly how much effort goes into a sim like this.

 

Its easy for us to say "they can spare 5mins a week!1!!" when in reality it can end up much more demanding timewise and threads can get out of hand quickly as we know.

 

Its a nice idea but probably not practical.

 

We do have the regular DD's as well as occasional replies from devs in other threads.

 

Patience is key!

[Dakpilot]

This type of thing does not exist on Russian forums..I doubt he/they have time to do it here

 

However Jason did say that the questions for Dev's section was outdated and needed a revamp, perhaps when BoK is released they will have time to re-implement it

 

as you showed above it does not take five minutes to go to Russian forum and read only AnPetrovich posts to keep up to date of special Sekrits

 

 

seems like he is quite busy enough for customer FM debates however civil (and we know they don't stay that way)

 

 

 

"All of the items listed are what to do to me. I do not want to make excuses, but it's not about money. It's about time. "Givi can do everything, but can not do everything at once." This year I was on vacation for only a week, and worked on New Year and May holidays, if only I had time to shove the unintended. Yes, it took almost 2 years from 120 "epic" diaries, I agree. However, for the sake of fairness, I note that over the past two years, too, there has been done a lot - all this is also in the diaries and on your computers. And these plans have not gone anywhere. The road will be mastered by the going, and we go without stopping. Patience, guys, we work! ."

 

"Comrades officers!

 

To be honest, I'm tired of looking at the fact that in the community, many pilots behave like a bunch of whiners, arrange provocations, hysterics at general meetings, and incite their fellow soldiers to verbal skirmishes in every possible way. I want to note that such behavior is not worthy of a Red Army fighter.

 

Developers repeatedly gave answers to all burning questions. We are aware of all your wishes and are doing everything possible that is in our power to achieve all our goals. No changes were made to the course chosen by us, and therefore there is no need to answer every Friday the same question about our plans - they can always be read using the forum search.

 

All the flood, offtopic, mutual insults and hamovatye vyskazyvaniya I rubbed. You can call me an earthworm.

 

But either we will start behaving like men, or all unbalanced and offended will be recommended to write to tech support, even every Friday, every day, and communication of developers on this forum with the community will simply be reduced to a minimum.

 

Still with the hope that the Russians (I'm not talking about nationality, but in a broad sense) can communicate culturally, cognitively and with respect to each other,"

 

Yours sincerely,

Petrovich

 

 

 

 

Cheers , Dakpilot

[Panthera]

Sounds like they could use more staff, but perhaps the money just isn't there to hire anymore people.

 

I recently just bought all the packages I could to support them, hopefully more can do the same.

[Dakpilot]

From the start the whole project has been on a (comparative) shoestring, needing more staff has been discussed and ackowledged

 

At current state a new FM/engineer position has been able to be advertised, with BoK release and update there is hope for more expansion of staff with greater sales and pre-orders for BoBP, Tank crew and Circus

 

Post from Petrovich on hard decisions regarding complaints of netcode

 

"According to the code code, I already answered recently on the forum - we have so far (I hope that for now) there is no networker for this task. In this work there is a share of my participation, but only a share, as an associate. Perhaps from the timespeak session, it might have been a mistaken impression that this task was mainly mine (it was often Petrovich who sounded painful), but that's not true. First of all, it is necessary to audit the core of the network code (written about ten years ago by a programmer who has not been on the team for a long time), and only then to deal with the optimization of working with these protocols, where I have my participation. This is a big and time-consuming task, which will take months of work, and if you give it to the Lidprogu or me, that will turn us off for these months from other tasks. I, of course, can do this, too, even though the sound engine or interface, but as Jason said, we do not have anyone else in the team who would be involved in modeling development. This is a serious problem for us, because we are practically permanent, during all the years of development, we are in a state of shortage of hands, so for this reason I have to periodically engage in content engineering tasks, because each new project requires a certain minimum set of new aircraft that are available the composition of engineers must be completed in time. We have to leave the culmination and go to the shop, stand up for the lathe. We have no other way out in a state-limited budget. For example, now I'm doing Yak-7B, which is very necessary for the Kuban, and which many players are waiting for. I try to spend this time working on content with benefit, seeking opportunities to implement new features or enhancements. For example, this aircraft will receive improved logic of the landing flaps and the sliding part of the cockpit lantern, small structural changes in the board's operation, a little more detailed DM. Then these two new technologies, our two other engineers, Roma and Sasha, engaged in fulltime content work, will gradually spread to other machines. So slowly the skeleton becomes overgrown with meat, and we have to prioritize based on the resources that we have. This is what Jason is saying, that we are looking for opportunities to improve each direction, but we are maneuvering between the constraints. We need programmers, we need engineers. We need money to pay them a salary. I hope that the Kuban will bring them to us, and we will finally be able to tackle the network as well. "

 

 

Cheers, Dakpilot

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Anyone ever really look at the link I provided? An Petrovich actually does reply. A lot. Discuses things with people. On the Russian forum. I love how the first response from people is always "no" and it is "senseless". Maybe you like the toxic environment and want to indulge in it. I don´t.

 

So here we go again. I advise you read before posting

 

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fforum.il2sturmovik.ru%2F

Don't think I have to remind you how most FM discussions on this forum so far ended. It's no wonder that with what happened after the 190 uproar and several attempts of bias accussians comunication suffered to a large degree. Besides, Petrovichs engagements on the russian forum are more about source gathering and explaination rather than discussion and people usually tend to be more respectfull towards him.

The FM information we reccieve in DD are already quite detailed which is not sth taken for granted when looking at other developers.

 

I'd surely appreciate an open dialog between devs and players but the reality is that there will be people moaning about 109s being 'ruined', Yaks 'overpowered' and Peshkas being 'invincible' instead of keeping the conversation constructive.

 

If you really want a clean discussion about such matters it can only be within closed groups. Hence why devs want to be PMed by people with serious concerns rather than looking for it threw multiple pages of heated comunity debate. I'd love to see a dedicated FM tester group with a locked subforum for this purpose some day.

 

Don't take me wrong, but after having been at the reccieving end and having years of FM discussions with comunity members I kind of know how frustrating it really can be.

Edited January 30, 2018 by 6./ZG26_5tuka

[JtD]

Besides, Petrovichs engagements on the russian forum are more about source gathering and explaination rather than discussion and people usually tend to be more respectfull towards him.

If he did the same here, we'd all be very happy. Explanations. No pointless musing on our part how this or that might be in game, and in the absence of fact, invent our own truth. I also suppose more interaction would automatically lead to more respect. It's always better to talk with people than to have people talk about you.

 

I understand that it is impractical for any developer to, in addition to their native Russian one, browse and follow another forum to here and there drop a meaningful comment. So some thing would have to be done to make discussions more accessible to the devs, in particular FM staff. Questions to the devs was nice, but too chaotic and not answered frequently enough. Probably perceived as too much to do eventually, so it would need to be less than that.

[unreasonable]

One of the things that keeps happening here is that new players arrive - which is very good - and then, after a while, start to ask questions in the forum that have already been the subject of a number of discussions, some useful and technical, others hopeless.  Searching is fine and to be encouraged, but forums are not an efficient store of information.

 

I wonder whether a FAQ on FM/DM/AI etc issues might be more useful than the OP's discussion suggestion?  This would at least have a clear structure, and the team do not have to constantly return to the same topics.

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

Yes, some sort of FAQ about what is and isn’t modelled would be very helpful for new players.

 

I see about one thread per week about engines quitting from people who don’t want trouble but simply aren’t aware that this game mechanic exists.

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

To keep you updated, Jason answered and he doesn’t want to do it. Would be lying if I said I wasn’t disappointed.

 

[Y29.Layin_Scunion]

I don't blame him whatsoever for not wanting to do it.

The amount of negative, partial complaining I see on this forum and in game is astounding.

I wish people were as motivated to do legitimate bug reports as they are to piss and moan about everything they find wrong.  I see unfounded claims consistently get upvoted and even reiterated despite these claims showing zero evidence.  This isn't a once in a while thing either....it's more than often.

 

And people expect the devs to engage with that on a regular basis?

I completely understand his position and find it to be absolutely reasonable.

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

17 minutes ago, Y-29.Layin_Scunion said:

The amount of negative, partial complaining I see on this forum and in game is astounding.

I'm not sure what you are talking about since this forum is very positive and compared to Russian forums (or even other games) this forum provides a lot of feedback and positive attitude. If you haven't visited Ru forums, then perhaps you should get there and see what negative actually means. As a matter of fact guys there consider it best to visit "our" forum exactly due to positive input and comments of other users. 

Also, your wish is a delusion. That's what testers are for. Average consumer neither will be motivated to do so, nor he is really interested in that. We have certain group of members who do indepth research and  provide feedback. Sheer reason FW-190 flies the way it does is due to community involvement. 

 

22 minutes ago, Y-29.Layin_Scunion said:

And people expect the devs to engage with that on a regular basis?

Han, BlackSix and Mehovushka seem to be active on daily basis on Ru forums. It's obvious that language barrier exists but still, I think its normal and natural that consumers are interested in communication with developers. 

[VesseL]

17 minutes ago, Y-29.Layin_Scunion said:

.........The amount of negative, partial complaining I see on this forum and in game is astounding.

I wish people were as motivated to do legitimate bug reports as they are to piss and moan about everything they find wrong.  I see unfounded claims consistently get upvoted and even reiterated despite these claims showing zero evidence.  This isn't a once in a while thing either....it's more than often.

 

And people expect the devs to engage with that on a regular basis?

I completely understand his position and find it to be absolutely reasonable.

 

 

I think this is the nicest forum i have ever been. Especially lately the athmosphere has been more polite.Thanks for those involved to that development.

 

Would you like to tell some examples of those unfounded claims that pop up consistently without any reason?

 

I hope devs would reply these topics more often.

[Y29.Layin_Scunion]

Take a gander at the FM discussion subforum.

 

I'm not sitting here saying the entirety of the forum is negative. But to act like everything is rainbows and gumdrops is delusional at best. 

 

Unfounded claims? I mean, there's one about the La-5FN in the FM discussion right now among numerous others. With people being shown evidence to the contrary and still whining. When I think of Jason having to deal with that sort of nonsense, I completely understand his position of not wanting to engage with it regularly.

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

To be honest I don’t really know what you are talking about. I could really name a couple of topics where it is actually the other way around. Why don’t you point us to that topic so I know what you are talking about. Anyways, the only time that a dev dropped a few lines on the La5fn in the general forum, it was pretty helpful and immediately gave the discussion a positive direction.