In-cockpit rattles and knocks

[OrLoK]

Hello there

 

Saw a bit of the film Dunkirk the other day and one thing that struck me was the noise of loose panels etc rattling in the cockpit.

 

In may favourite car/Military sims Ive seen this added as a sound mod.

 

I've been up in Civilian Aircraft both large and small but don't seem to remember anything similar.

 

Correct or not, it *sounded* right to me.

 

Would *you* like a random soundscape of clinks and clunks?

 

Is it accurate?

 

Rgds

 

LoK

 

Edited January 28, 2018 by OrLoK

[Gambit21]

Over the sound of the engines and with a flight helmet on "I think I hear a dropped screw under the seat"

I don't think so.

[Danziger]

Yeah actually I'm more in favour of muffling the high frequencies in the gun and engine sounds like it would be heard through a flight helmet.

[[N.O.G.F]_Cathal_Brugha]

I think I remember reading something about hearing the instrument panel rattling but I don't remember what plane/country it was. You can hear the rattle in my truck over the diesel roaring and turbo whistling. Probably harder to hear in a plane with a helmet on though, unless panel is really loose.

[Danziger]

I don't think the muffled diesel truck engines are as loud as an aircraft V12 with short stubby headers though. I drive a Cascadia with a DD15 and I can hear all kinds of noises over the engine rumble but I don't think it's really in the same ballpark as a WW2 plane for engine noise. Plus with a pilot wearing a helmet a lot of the sound is more felt than heard. Apart from the radio communications of course.

[[APAF]VR_Spartan85]

If there were some screws flying around in my aircraft I'd have a talking to my ground crew...lol

But perhaps when the aircraft is overstressed... not really any real life experience with that.

Edited January 27, 2018 by spartan85

[SR603-Flowbee]

Having flown in a piston engined Harvard without wearing a headset I can say catecorically the noise of the engine is so loud that any noises such as items flying into the air (and that includes me lifting off the seat and held in place by the belts during a stall and free fall manoeuvre) could not be heard. My ears were ringing for 3 days afterwards both due to the engine noise and pressure changes. There were no rattles or clunks just noise.

 

Nevertheless I would love to have those sounds included in the sim. I've managed to recreate the actual aircraft sound using a vibrating headset I bought on Amazon but interesting as it is you could not fly like this for any length of time. Sims should be fun not just realistic only. At least if you value your ears that is...

Edited January 27, 2018 by Flowbee_603

[[N.O.G.F]_Cathal_Brugha]

A Cascadia is much quieter than a Classic XL DD60 505hp, I drove a Cascadia once. My turbo is louder than the engine when it is boosting full. I do agree with you about the aircraft engine and helmet though.

[Ribbon]

If it were case i'm in!

I've spent many hours in military planes and planes for civil protection which don't have sound isolation (weight reasons), aircraft structure visible to naked eye.

Even there is loud noise form engines and propelers beating air and wearing headphones you can still hear unusual noise for example if some interior panel is loosen but those are rare cases and instrument panel have rubber vibrashock/shock dumpers so they dont make noise.

I mean if everything is as it should be there won't be weird noises, but in ww2 aviation may be different case so we should ask real pilots who had honour to fly spits,190's and 109's.

Is here any pilot from Duxford air show ?

Edited January 27, 2018 by EAF_Ribbon

[AndyJWest]

No, it isn't accurate because loose articles aren't allowed in aircraft cockpits, and while it is possible the odd small nut or rivet might get overlooked, anything large enough to make a noise you could hear over the engine would be immediately apparent. And legitimate grounds to abort the flight immediately.

 

And for anyone doubting the dangers of loose objects, read this: https://www.skytrace.co.uk/accident.html

[OrLoK]

My apologies, i meant loose panels and untightened screws/bolts rather than lose items like tools etc!

[[N.O.G.F]_Cathal_Brugha]

I thought that was what you meant. You might "hear" that as vibration rather than sound though. 

[Ribbon]

My apologies, i meant loose panels and untightened screws/bolts rather than lose items like tools etc!

Practice is that pilot abort flight if he hear unusal sound/noise or vibration and rub his engineer's ears, but on planes that stand great stress those things can happen in tge middle of flight.

From my experience loosen bolt itself won't be heard but some big panel could(in some weird circumstances), or canopy itself on those old birds.

What for sure would be heard is exterior panel is loosen and airflow making it bumping.

[Oubaas]

FOD in the cockpit is prohibited.

[Y-29.Silky]

I've been up in Civilian Aircraft both large and small but don't seem to remember anything similar.

 

 

I think the only ones who can answer this are the ones who are flying high speed maneuvers where you get stress, turbulence, and rattle. 

I bet someone like Kermie has an answer, he does respond more than not.

 

Edited January 28, 2018 by Y-29.Silky

[[APAF]VR_Spartan85]

Well, heck, if there were bits of plane and fractures from flack shells in the cockpit after a battle and they floated around during inverted or negative g flight maneuvers, I could understand

[sinned]

Yes, I want it.

[unreasonable]

Yeah actually I'm more in favour of muffling the high frequencies in the gun and engine sounds like it would be heard through a flight helmet.

 

Absolutely. But we cannot have this according to Han because "most people like the new gun sounds". Perhaps the solution is to wear an actual flight helmet? 

[FuriousMeow]

I can't stand the new gun sounds. They are audible at levels with your head, no other noise and no ear pro that would lead to deafening tinnitus , by the receiver.

[Boneboys]

 Yes, if accurately modelled in real time...

 

May add to the sensation of speed and distress in emergency situations.

 

First they need to tweak the bÖnk sound when my head hits the cockpit canopy.

[ZachariasX]

Aircraft oftem make noises, especially when put under G load. Some more than others, but for me it is clearly part of the soul of an aircraft. Even a reinforced B4 aerobatic sailplane (+9/-6 G AFIR) sounds like if you‘re twisting an oil can when you put it under load. Eric Brown specifically wrote about the tin drum sounds of the Zero when pulling G. Then you have the seat belts that you can hear, the panel can also be heard sometimes if you put enough G.

 

The only planes that I don‘t hear such sounds is the open seat biplane. This for the simple reason as having your head out there, you can‘t hear much besides the slipstream an the engine. Also the plane is not very flexible, being rigged with wires like that. Also there is nothing lose in the cockpit that can make sounds, it will be gone soon otherwise.

[OrLoK]

Yes, if accurately modelled in real time...

 

May add to the sensation of speed and distress in emergency situations.

 

First they need to tweak the bÖnk sound when my head hits the cockpit canopy.

The bonk (and vr effect) is my arch enemy in this sim.

 

[69th_chuter]

Not particularly interested in extraneous cockpit noises as they would be a reason for me to RTB (and I've done it IRL - once it turned out to be a screwdriver :/ ).  Heck, I don't even allow rattly noises in my car let alone loose articles rolling about - lol.

 

 

 

Hey, that P-51C in Kermie's clip above reminds me of how I tried desperately to fly a P-51(any) in IL2 1946 at 32 MAP and 2600 RPM (as in the clip) and even with no ammo and 10% fuel the plane(s) couldn't even begin to maintain altitude.  And to think Cruise could be as low as 26/2300, Climb could be 35/2600 and Takeoff 40/3000 (blue gas limits boost to 55 inches). 

[Roast]

I seem to recall - but like some others, no idea in which particular plane - that with f.i. hard turns

the fuselage makes 'stressing' noises; a bit of cracking, metal squeaking.

 

I quite like that, I must say, as it adds to the realism, but leave it to dev.team in which pane to put it.

I would imagine that earlier planes made more 'stressing' noises than later ones?

 

*Edit - CoD has more cracking and squeaking noises than BoS series, if I am not mistaken. Perhaps

dev. could create similar noises in BoS?

Edited January 30, 2018 by Roast

[Jade_Monkey]

I'm more concerned with the external engine sounds which are incredibly flat in the game.

I'm not sure how "Hollywood" the Dunkirk sounds are but we are missing the roar of the engines in IL2.

[1./KG4_OldJames]

I voted "yes', but then remembered I had once spent 13 hours in the back of a Hercules and the constant 'white noise' and vibration meant I could hear (and feel) nothing afterwards for hours...so I change my vote to "no". How bomber crew managed it back in the day is beyond me.

[ZachariasX]

I voted "yes', but then remembered I had once spent 13 hours in the back of a Hercules and the constant 'white noise' and vibration meant I could hear (and feel) nothing afterwards for hours...so I change my vote to "no". How bomber crew managed it back in the day is beyond me.

Once you‘re deaf, you‘re fine.

[Roast]

I voted "yes', but then remembered I had once spent 13 hours in the back of a Hercules and the constant 'white noise' and vibration meant I could hear (and feel) nothing afterwards for hours...so I change my vote to "no". How bomber crew managed it back in the day is beyond me.

 

The 'old' Il-2 had interior (cockpit) and exterior (engine, even other aircraft) sounds. This did not mean that you were

constantly submerged in these sounds; you could temper it according to taste.

 

So I would not worry to much about permanent BoS deafness

[Ghost666]

Once you‘re deaf, you‘re fine.

 

What?  

[Tuesday]

Over the sound of the engines and with a flight helmet on "I think I hear a dropped screw under the seat"

I don't think so.

Tell that to Sonar!

 

Edited January 31, 2018 by 19//Tuesday

[ZachariasX]

What?

No more noise, if that is what bugs you. So much for the joke.

 

Besides that, most of the pilots flying open/loud machines had impaired hearing rather soon. To answer your quenstion, how they coped with that noise, is, they don't and consequently suffer from impaired hearing rather sooner than later. As this one typically comes with frequency gaps and not a full band attenuation of the hearing, it doesn't really cancel out the percieved noise. It's just bad.

[sniperton]

I didn't vote, because none of the options really fits for me.

 

I'm not against sounds that cannot be 'heard' IRL, provided they render or translate RL sensations that cannot be felt in a comfy chair.

 

G forces are a case in point. Airframe stress is basically due to increasing G forces. An RL pilot doesn't need to 'hear' airframe crackings to know that he's pulling high Gs, because he can feel it in his pants. This fundamental sensation (and info) we do not have. Although pilot blackouts due to excessive G forces are rendered in the game visually, increasing G forces are not rendered in any way.

 

If cracking sounds are used as a substitute to give me info on my G-state, I'm for it, however unrealistic it is to actually 'hear' those sounds IRL.

[ZachariasX]

These are sounds that can be heard. But I would say that maybe apart from G force related sounds, they would be out of scope for this sim. A2A simulations do that with their aircraft. For instance you hear whwen the engine is turned of and cooling down, the crakling noise from the shrinking metal. These are recordings from the actual aircraft. Same for the in cockpit noises. They even made their Accusim addon for common planes to kind of simulate these things (among a lot more).

 

But for $10 aircraft modules, I would set different priorities than those internal sounds.

[Guest deleted@83466]

These are sounds that can be heard. But I would say that maybe apart from G force related sounds, they would be out of scope for this sim. A2A simulations do that with their aircraft. For instance you hear whwen the engine is turned of and cooling down, the crakling noise from the shrinking metal. These are recordings from the actual aircraft. Same for the in cockpit noises. They even made their Accusim addon for common planes to kind of simulate these things (among a lot more).

 

But for $10 aircraft modules, I would set different priorities than those internal sounds.

 

I voted yes in the poll, because having come from the world of FSX, I saw a certain immersion value in having some rattly sounds, even if it might not be completely accurate to hear them in real life.  In some cases it is, in some it isnt.  For example, you probably wouldn't hear the wings groaning in a high G turn, but since we do not feel G forces, it might be appropriate in some cases to create a certain sensation by other means, as long as it is subtle, and not overdone.   I wouldn't mind the addition of some additional "atmosphere" sounds, especially if they could be tuned by a slider to fit one's preferences.

 

(For those interested in enhancing the immersion, btw, on a related note I would highly recommend a Buttkicker device for your chair.)

[unreasonable]

I voted yes in the poll, because having come from the world of FSX, I saw a certain immersion value in having some rattly sounds, even if it might not be completely accurate to hear them in real life.  In some cases it is, in some it isnt.  For example, you probably wouldn't hear the wings groaning in a high G turn, but since we do not feel G forces, it might be appropriate in some cases to create a certain sensation by other means, as long as it is subtle, and not overdone.   I wouldn't mind the addition of some additional "atmosphere" sounds, especially if they could be tuned by a slider to fit one's preferences.

 

(For those interested in enhancing the immersion, btw, on a related note I would highly recommend a Buttkicker device for your chair.)

 

How about squashing the picture down a little so that circles get flattened - or stretched out for negative Gs?