Operation Avalanche and So On...

[Oubaas]

Every now and then a discussion starts about possible map/campaign ideas. How about a package covering the landings at Sicily, Salerno, and Anzio?

 

We already have most of the air assets. It would give the devs some practice creating naval assets.

 

You could fly the upcoming P-51, P-38, Spitfire, the B-25, etcetera, and it would certainly give the Stuka pilots and Ju-88 drivers something to do, among others on the Luftwaffe side.

 

And the MC.202 would take on new significance.

 

Plus, the map wouldn't have to be too crazy huge.

 

Any thoughts on the idea?

[Jade_Monkey]

Anything Mediterranean related, especially Italy/Malta it would make me a happy man.

 

It really depends on how they model the landscape but i trust the team would do a great job.

 

I just want to get that feeling of a hot summer day.

[Beazil]

3rd party maps? Is it possible?

[Royal_Flight]

I've wanted this very theatre for ages, it's the one I'd want to see most.

I've spoken at length about it in other threads elsewhere so I'll save repeating myself other than to say I can see a load of pros and no cons at all.

 

Naval operations, torpedos, and carriers - introducing the Royal Navy with the Illustrious-class and the Fleet Air Arm - in a varied and interesting theatre with an array of available missions from close air support to bomber interception and escort and including all points in between, and a well-known theatre which will attract people and broaden the appeal of BoX. As well as being conceptually similar to Kuban (grinding ground warfare with extensive naval participation and large aerial battles) so it's not a huge leap into the unknown.

 

Also there are (or will be) plenty of useable assets in game with the Kittyhawk, A-20, B-25 and Spitfire Vb and IX (which could also be turned into Seafires which are vital for Salerno) and P-38 and P-51 (which could be 'downgraded' to fit '43), as well as all the German aircraft.

 

There could be a wide selection of interesting Allied aircraft added (if it were up to me they would be mostly naval but there are loads to choose from).

But the main appeal is in the Axis planeset as it could consist entirely of Italian designs, reducing the fatigue of more 109s and 190s.

 

Maybe an Mc.205? Easy to build from the existing 202.

Sm.79 Sparviero? The iconic Italian bomber aircraft, also allows for torpedo bombing, plus the Ju 52 has been done so three engines are possible.

Any of the Italian 5 Series fighters would be more than a match for the best Allied designs of the time.

 

Also it's probably easier to find documentation for the Italians than for Japanese aircraft which I'm led to believe is the insurmountable hurdle for the move to the Pacific.

 

Anyone have any thoughts on planesets?

[Avimimus]

That sounds really great actually!

[Avimimus]

3rd party maps? Is it possible?

 

There have been 3rd party maps for both BoS and RoF... there were also 3rd party 3d models for RoF... so it seems quite possible.

 

The question is how closely the high standards shown in BoK etc. could be successfully followed by a 3rd party and whether an agreement could be reached.

[Finkeren]

Apart from a couple of Italian aircraft and some dust filters we are really gonna have most of what we need in terms of plane set for the Med in 1943-45

 

I certainly wouldn’t mind an Italian map.

[ACG_Smokejumper]

Where Corsairs involved or Wildcats in significant numbers? 

[tfleck01]

I don't know about significant numbers, but I believe the HMS Illustrious still had some Martlets. Probably a bit too early for Corsairs.

[=27=Davesteu]

First of all please allow me to focus your attention on the overlapping dates of Operation Husky and the Battle of Kursk. Attrition and the Italian Front being regarded only secondary resulted in many Luftwaffe units being withdrawn in the aftermath of Husky.
Yet I personally feel Italy 1944 would be the most interesting MTO scenario, historically as well as game-wise. Italy provides a very interesting and versatile landscape and a multitude of interesting aircraft and belligerents, including the SAAF, RNZAF, RAAF, 1^oGAVCA (FAB) as well as two(!) Italian air forces on opposing sides. AFAIK no Flight-Combat-Sim ever attended this rich scenario before, including well known operations at Anzio and Monte Casino, the Gustav-Linie, et cetera.
 
After stating this and expressing my sincere hope for anything CBI- or PTO-related first, I have to kindly disagree with:

We already have most of the air assets.

 

- Backdating the Bodenplatte P-51 D, especially into the much more important A-36A, basically equals development of a new aircraft.
- Almost certainly a very late model featuring the redesigned stabilizer and very likely E-wings, same is true in lesser extend for backdating the Bodenplatte Spitfire IX into a mid-production or, additionally, converting into a Spitfire   VIII.
- P-40E has literally grown with time too, featuring an new engine and the resulting elongated fuselage, necessitating basically a complete development as well.

The list goes on, not yet including the need for at least a flyable B-25, maybe a Marauder, P-47 D "Razorback", Beaufighter, Hurricane(/bomber), ...

The Luftwaffe on the other hand isn't in need of as extensive modifications to existing types. Only few new models of aircraft are needed, allowing main focus on such of Italian origin. 

Few Kampfgeschwader remaining with 2nd Luftflotte, Ju-88 probably only requires modification into an A4/Torp. or A17. Removal of the Bola and swapping the Lotfe with a Torpedo-Kommandogerät are minor changes compared to the already mentioned ones to Allied types.
Most work would be introducing the torpedo-mechanic itself.
I can't determine how important this mechanic would be to me personal though, as I always enjoyed it in IL2 1946, but only one detachment of KG26 flew night sorties against the Anzio beachhead. Most Torpedobomber then flew from bases in southern France down to the North-African coast and therefore are most like, though unfortunately, far out of ingame map borders.
Very interesting and therefore important could be the Hs-293 and Fritz-X armed Do-217 of KG100. Guessing implementation of this technique would be very labor intensive, I'm again uncertain about how important it would be, even more so as the Do-217 fits only few other scenarios (if one is like me and cares about) and flew from southern France as well.
But then again this would be the definite scenario justifying her and mentioned armaments inclusion.

- Ju-87 would need comparably minor modifications to fit nocturnal operations, also providing the much wanted D5.
- Fw-190 F variants are already represented by modification to the A5, and possibly the forthcoming A8.
- Bf-109 G6 going to be released as collector plane soon.

 

Few new Luftwaffe aircraft would provide possibilities for less common aircraft like the CR.42 or even SM.79, former being considerably more important. (Can be used as Hs-123 too, as long as we don't get the actual thing)

Very important and somewhat famous are the Italian Series 5 fighters. I guess the Macchi 205 would be very likely, more so than G.55, as former can make use of knowledge already gathered with MC.202. The very interesting G.55 shouldn't be forgotten though.


Long story short, most important* Aircraft for first half of 1944 are:

 

A-36

B-25

B-26               
P-40 L or N

P-47 D (pre. D-25)

Beaufighter Mk. VI (incl. Mk. VIF)
Hurricane Mk. IV
Spitfire Mk. VIII
Spitfire Mk. IX (mid)

 

Bf-109 G6
Fw-190 F
Do-217
Ju-87 D (incl. nocturnal equipment)  
Ju-88 A4 (incl. A4/Torp. or A17 modification)
CR.42
G.55
MC. 205
SM.79

*: in my judgment

---------------------------------------------------

Sole operator of the F4U, or Corsair as they called them, in the ETO or MTO was the FAA, flying cover during "Operation Tungsten"(Norway). No engagements, no further operational use in the ETO or MTO.
The only fighter vs. fighter engagement of F6F too was during  Op. Tungsten, more precisely May 8th, 1944 against JG5.
Shooting down a few transports and bombers during Operation Dragoon, both FAA and USN Hellcats mainly flew ground-strike missions during this campaign. No further deployment of US F6F into ETO/MTO afterwards, FAA also started deploying most of their Hellcats to Ceylon and the Indian Ocean.
Some later additionally joined the Pacific fleet, being largely overshadowed by Corsairs there, they mostly served from escort carriers along the Burmese and Malayan coast during 1945.

Edited February 3, 2018 by =27=Davesteu

[Royal_Flight]

Where Corsairs involved or Wildcats in significant numbers?

No Corsairs in Husky or Avalanche, their first combat deployment was in 1944. There were Martlets in North Africa and operating from escort carriers in the Med as well.

 

There were Seafires though, and Fairey Swordfish and Albacores for recon/torpedo-bombing/ASW, either of which would be great to have. Similar to the Po-2 but over water and with carrier take-offs and landings as well.

Edited February 3, 2018 by Royal_Flight

[Oubaas]

First of all please allow me to focus your attention on the overlapping dates of Operation Husky and the Battle of Kursk. Attrition and the Italian Front being regarded only secondary resulted in many Luftwaffe units being withdrawn in the aftermath of Husky.

Yet I personally feel Italy 1944 would be the most interesting MTO scenario, historically as well as game-wise. Italy provides a very interesting and versatile landscape and a multitude of interesting aircraft and belligerents, including the SAAF, RNZAF, RAAF, 1^oGAVCA (FAB) as well as two(!) Italian air forces on opposing sides. AFAIK no Flight-Combat-Sim ever attended this rich scenario before, including well known operations at Anzio and Monte Casino, the Gustav-Linie, et cetera.

 

After stating this and expressing my sincere hope for anything CBI- or PTO-related first, I have to kindly disagree with:

 

- Backdating the Bodenplatte P-51 D, especially into the much more important A-36A, basically equals development of a new aircraft.

- Almost certainly a very late model featuring the redesigned stabilizer and very likely E-wings, same is true in lesser extend for backdating the Bodenplatte Spitfire IX into a mid-production or, additionally, converting into a Spitfire   VIII.

- P-40E has literally grown with time too, featuring an new engine and the resulting elongated fuselage, necessitating basically a complete development as well.

 

The list goes on, not yet including the need for at least a flyable B-25, maybe a Marauder, P-47 D "Razorback", Beaufighter, Hurricane(/bomber), ...

 

The Luftwaffe on the other hand isn't in need of as extensive modifications to existing types. Only few new models of aircraft are needed, allowing main focus on such of Italian origin. 

 

Few Kampfgeschwader remaining with 2nd Luftflotte, Ju-88 probably only requires modification into an A4/Torp. or A17. Removal of the Bola and swapping the Lotfe with a Torpedo-Kommandogerät are minor changes compared to the already mentioned ones to Allied types.

Most work would be introducing the torpedo-mechanic itself.

I can't determine how important this mechanic would be to me personal though, as I always enjoyed it in IL2 1946, but only one detachment of KG26 flew night sorties against the Anzio beachhead. Most Torpedobomber then flew from bases in southern France down to the North-African coast and therefore are most like, though unfortunately, far out of ingame map borders.

Very interesting and therefore important could be the Hs-293 and Fritz-X armed Do-217 of KG100. Guessing implementation of this technique would be very labor intensive, I'm again uncertain about how important it would be, even more so as the Do-217 fits only few other scenarios (if one is like me and cares about) and flew from southern France as well.

But then again this would be the definite scenario justifying her and mentioned armaments inclusion.

 

- Ju-87 would need comparably minor modifications to fit nocturnal operations, also providing the much wanted D5.

- Fw-190 F variants are already represented by modification to the A5, and possibly the forthcoming A8.

- Bf-109 G6 going to be released as collector plane soon.

 

Few new Luftwaffe aircraft would provide possibilities for less common aircraft like the CR.42 or even SM.79, former being considerably more important. (Can be used as Hs-123 too, as long as we don't get the actual thing)

Very important and somewhat famous are the Italian Series 5 fighters. I guess the Macchi 205 would be very likely, more so than G.55, as former can make use of knowledge already gathered with MC.202. The very interesting G.55 shouldn't be forgotten though.

 

 

Long story short, most important* Aircraft for first half of 1944 are:

 

A-36

B-25

B-26               

P-40 L or N

P-47 D (pre. D-25)

Beaufighter Mk. VI (incl. Mk. VIF)

Hurricane Mk. IV

Spitfire Mk. VIII

Spitfire Mk. IX (mid)

 

Bf-109 G6

Fw-190 F

Do-217

Ju-87 D (incl. nocturnal equipment)  

Ju-88 A4 (incl. A4/Torp. or A17 modification)

CR.42

G.55

MC. 205

SM.79

 

*: in my judgment

 

---------------------------------------------------

 

Sole operator of the F4U, or Corsair as they called them, in the ETO or MTO was the FAA, flying cover during "Operation Tungsten"(Norway). No engagements, no further operational use in the ETO or MTO.

The only fighter vs. fighter engagement of F6F too was during  Op. Tungsten, more precisely May 8th, 1944 against JG5.

Shooting down a few transports and bombers during Operation Dragoon, both FAA and USN Hellcats mainly flew ground-strike missions during this campaign. No further deployment of US F6F into ETO/MTO afterwards, FAA also started deploying most of their Hellcats to Ceylon and the Indian Ocean.

Some later additionally joined the Pacific fleet, being largely overshadowed by Corsairs there, they mostly served from escort carriers along the Burmese and Malayan coast during 1945.

 

Thanks for the very thorough discussion, that's more than I knew. Well, we're somewhere in the neighborhood, perhaps, and it probably wouldn't be a huge stretch to make it happen. It would give the developers practice with naval units, and some existing aircraft could be modded and so on.

 

I know the basic overview of this theater, my cousin was awarded the Silver Star for his actions at Anzio, but there are obviously people onboard the forum who know the history a lot better than me and could say whether the idea is feasible or not better than me. But I'll bet it would be a lot of fun if they decided to do it.

[ACG_Smokejumper]

This part of the war is one of my favorites as well. The Gothic Line and Liry Valley where legendary in my Canadian biased interest. 

 

From a game standpoint.  Mountain dogfighting will be epic.

[NETSCAPE]

I'd love to fly a Centauro !