ME262 rivals?

[Asgar]

I would have liked to have seen the meteor included in the line up jet v jets would have been fun, though the 262 is the superior plane.

 

That said I can see why they included the 262 only , it seems to me by this stage of the war the 190s and 109s were inferior to the allies planes, namely the tempest and p51. It would have been difficult being on the axis side in game and maybe the devs thought including 262 balances the sides out somewhat.    

[Ehret]

really funny to read all this fanboy wishful thinking:)

 

Yeah. The 262 will be useless against propfighters because its so fast. bla blah. ROFL.

Thats why it was considered superior to its contemporary planes back in the day.

LOL

 

We will see how the devs will "model" it to be fun for "both" sides:P

Wouldnt wonder if we will see some sort of "190 deja vu"

 

This will be different - excessive G-force will be your main enemy in a dogfight. Bearable in a late prop (600-700km/h) with G-suit; much harder to not blackout at 800-900km/h in a plain seat in the 262. To follow an evading turn of a slower prop fighter at those speeds, you need to pull twice the G... Good luck getting a gun solution in such situation; unless an enemy driver is oblivious, this is not going to happen often.

[CrazyDuck]

Me 262 in 1944 = Fw 190 in 1941

I seriosly hope the devs will not favor "game balance" over historical accuracy.

[Ehret]

 

I feel a bit sorry for the P51 fans out there because i like 51 and saw it live, but there is no hope for it when a 109 at same alt meets a P51.

 

P51 driver should just fly straight; perhaps starting a very shallow climb after few minutes. Time is not on the 109 side...

Edited January 22, 2018 by Ehret

[Sgt_Joch]

as usual, these threads always seem to evolve into whether a plane is good for MP or not. Believe or not, there is more to this game than just MP.

 

The ME 262 should be in "Bodenplatte", it was regularly in action against allied planes from summer 44 onwards and a group was involved in the January 1 attack.

 

It will be difficult to shoot down, but that is how it was in RL. There are several instances where allied fighters managed to hit/damage/shoot down a ME 262 in combat. In all cases, it was a matter of being at the right place at the right time and using a diving attack to get enough speed to getting within firing range. In almost all cases, this was against ME 262s flying low and caught by surprise or against a ME 262 which pushed its luck for too long against many allied fighters.

 

ME 262s were regularly encountered by 2ndTAF from September 44 onwards. In general, they avoided tangling with Allied fighters and would just exit the area at high speed. Many of the ME 262s encountered seem to have been the bomber variant.

 

Although outside the scope of "Bodenplatte", where the 262 really shined was against Heavy Bombers. It took a long time to get going, since up to feb. 45, 262 groups rarely attacked and were working on their tactics. From march 45 on, 262s were very effective, they used their high speed to avoid the escorts and would attack the bombers. They brought back the pre-war three plane formation to maximise firepower against bombers. Fortunately for the Allies, the LW never managed to put up more than 30-50 262s at a time and interceptions only occurred every 2-3 weeks so bomber losses were still in the acceptable range. Although there seems to have been more jets available, the main problem for the LW in 45 was a shortage of qualified pilots and of fuel.

Edited January 22, 2018 by Sgt_Joch

[SJ_Butcher]

I am opposed to the addition of the plane, but recognize that it will come. This is why I hope that the situation on the servers will not get out of hand and therefore hope it will be used by servers sparingly or not at all, depending on mission and scenario. And yes, I always check people who come at me aggressively and with weird shit, since most of the time it turns out that these people are a) not affected (you) or b) don't know what is being talked about (in this case the gameplay experience and mission meta on the MP servers of this sim, so also you).

It just saves time, because I don't have to discuss back and forth for 2 pages to conclude that I don't have to take their opinions seriously, since they're not based on experience. I never cried, I cautioned about the addition of the plane in light of what that will probably mean for the gameplay on the servers, which is my first concern when it comes to planesets and balance. Other people can obviously have different priorities and tastes, and they're absolutely free to voice 'em. But you instead chose to come at me like a sim elitist wehraboo who cannot stand someone not liking his favourite toy. So there, that's that.

 

and do you realize that 90% players that own the game dont even play online? and this numbers are not invented by me. 90% that dont even look at forums and want to play and pay for the game, so multiplayer guys are a minority and they should not be focused because thats not what keep this game alive, is the offline players that bought the gme, thats why the devs are improving the campaing.

[Warpig]

The 262 will get owned by any prop fighters.

Edited January 22, 2018 by Warpig

[Ribbon]

Why worry about MP balance!

It will get balanced by itself, if me262 will be untouchable and in unlimited numbers on certain server i guess axis will fly alone on that server, nobody want to be target all the time.

Simple as that!

Edited January 22, 2018 by EAF_Ribbon

[Ehret]

A p51 player needs more skill in dcs than a 109 player on equal terms to make a kill. this i can say for sure.

 

The Mustang is the most misunderstood plane. The real fight using P51s takes place on a logistic level, rather than doing direct kills. Why destroy an enemy with guns, when you can get the same result by depleting his fuel supplies by exploiting your much longer endurance? Either way the enemy will not be able to fly a comparable number of sortie hours, at some point.

[Livai]

What wonder me is if the Inlet and Outlet is controlable

 

[Ehret]

What wonder me is if the Inlet and Outlet is controlable

 

 

I don't know, but if the nozzle isn't controllable then it will have a similar problem to a fixed pitch propeller.

Edited January 22, 2018 by Ehret

[Lusekofte]

The ME 262 will not have a reasonable task to do in Bodenplatte except for bombing, witch will be my take on it. I cant imagine it will be a success as a fighter for most people, but there is always the one person that do excel , and he will find a way to use it

[Oubaas]

After the 262 is released, with dozens of jets chaotically swarming the skies, while a handful of prop planes mill about smartly...

 

"LOLZ! Did you see that? I outran them again! Why do they even bother? Don't they know that we have jets? Dude, where'd you get that Red Bull skin?"

 

Meanwhile...

 

"This is not historically accurate! There's no way that there would be this many 262s in this sector at this point in history! Can I turn off, "Download Custom Skins"? I think I just saw a, "Hello, Kitty!" 262 climbing away. Who's the server admin?"

 

[Mac_Messer]

Good job there at completely missing my point entirely. And no, it did not fight without restriction, the restriction was being available in severely limited numbers, which I hope will be represented by the situation on the servers, because 45 262 against 20 P-51 without heavy bombers would be pretty ahistorical, amirite? And we're in "simulation land" where we look down upon those peasants of dogfight-oriented minds, who shall be banished from our hallowed halls of simulation elitism to that godforsaken game with tiers, which coincidentally brought over a shitton of people into the flightsim genre by being an easy stepping stone.

The point about WT bringing more people to BoX series is IMO seriously overrated. Maybe 5% of them will switch to BoX, all the rest thinks that WT is already the end all flight simulator. And it`s free, they say.

 

Read some WT steam reviews or comments under WT videos to get a glimpse of what those people are.

[MiloMorai]

What wonder me is if the Inlet and Outlet is controlable

 

 

Only the exhaust was variable.

[Mac_Messer]

This will be different - excessive G-force will be your main enemy in a dogfight. Bearable in a late prop (600-700km/h) with G-suit; much harder to not blackout at 800-900km/h in a plain seat in the 262. To follow an evading turn of a slower prop fighter at those speeds, you need to pull twice the G... Good luck getting a gun solution in such situation; unless an enemy driver is oblivious, this is not going to happen often.

Nah, man. You just fly so fast that they don`t even notice you.  It`s a hax plane.

[Finkeren]

Personally, I'm glad that we're getting the Me 262.

 

Not that I think I'll be flying it much, I have a somewhat irrational hatred for that plane: It's late war (which is not my cup of tea in the first place), it's relatively rare, it's big, heavy and kinda ugly (pull off the engines and make a beautiful glider out of it), it's something of a one-trick-pony and it embodies the kind of "Wunderwaffe" mentality that people go head-over-heels for despite clearly being a war-losing strategy.

 

Nevertheless, it brings something new to the table, and if it shakes up MP in the process, that's just great in my book.

 

Besides, not having the 262 in a 1945 ETO installment of this sim would spawn literally hundreds of "why no Me 262?"-threads. Best get it right away.

Edited January 22, 2018 by Finkeren

[Tomsk]

As a FW 190 fan I expect I'll really enjoy the Me-262. Insanely fast, climbs like crazy, good at all altitudes, ridiculously heavy armament, handles well at high speed, but can't turn worth a crap.

[PatrickAWlson]

The 262 will get owned by any prop fighters.

 

AI 262s certainly will.  The AI will start doing tight circles on the deck

Personally, I'm glad that we're getting the Me 262.

 

Not that I think I'll be flying it much, I have a somewhat irrational hatred for that plane: It's late war (which is not my cup of tea in the first place), it's relatively rare, it's big, heavy and kinda ugly (pull off the engines and make a beautiful glider out of it), it's something of a one-trick-pony and it embodies the kind of "Wunderwaffe" mentality that people go head-over-heels for despite clearly being a war-losing strategy.

 

Nevertheless, it brings something new to the table, and if it shakes up MP in the process, that's just great in my book.

 

Besides, not having the 262 in a 1945 ETO installment of this sim would spawn literally hundreds of "why no Me 262?"-threads. Best get it right away.

 

I would not refer to the 262 as a war losing strategy.  The war losing strategy was fighting the US, fighting Russia, and fighting both at the same time.  Having already made those mistakes the 262 was about the best option available

Edited January 22, 2018 by PatrickAWlson

[Finkeren]

I would not refer to the 262 as a war losing strategy.  The war losing strategy was fighting the US, fighting Russia, and fighting both at the same time.  Having already made those mistakes the 262 was about the best option available

 

A maximum total of about 550 enemy planes destroyed (those are the claims so very likely much less than that). Was that really worth it? I will take a wild guess and say, that the entire Me 262 program cost Nazi Germany a good deal more than the cost of 550 mass produced allied aircraft + crew - even if a significant portion of those were 4-engined heavies.

[CIA_Yankee_]

Personally, I'm glad that we're getting the Me 262.

 

Not that I think I'll be flying it much, I have a somewhat irrational hatred for that plane: It's late war (which is not my cup of tea in the first place), it's relatively rare, it's big, heavy and kinda ugly (pull off the engines and make a beautiful glider out of it), it's something of a one-trick-pony and it embodies the kind of "Wunderwaffe" mentality that people go head-over-heels for despite clearly being a war-losing strategy.

 

Nevertheless, it brings something new to the table, and if it shakes up MP in the process, that's just great in my book.

 

Besides, not having the 262 in a 1945 ETO installment of this sim would spawn literally hundreds of "why no Me 262?"-threads. Best get it right away.

 

Personally, I think the 262 will be a formidable opponent. Not only because of its superior speed, but because a lot of the factors that massively limited its effectiveness in the actual way will not be modeled in the sim.

 

For example, there is no way to truly model the massive allied air superiority (not without making the game not fun), so the whole idea of camping airfields to take out landing or taking off 262s won't really be feasible. The 262s will be able to take off, climb and speed up relatively safely, and will therefore be operating at their optimal envelope when facing the allied (which themselves will not be outnumbering the LW).

 

So, yeah, the 262 will be a formidable opponent and will be a major threat to anyone trying to occupy the same airspace as a 262 (especially at altitude). Those of us down low fighting the objectives will probably fair significantly better, but we will have to be constantly on the lookout for 262s zipping in for their boom n zoom attacks.

[Sgt_Joch]

The "claim" of 550 ACs shot down by 262s is highly misleading.

 

JG7 was the main unit operating 262s in 1945. Due to the loss of records, the number of kills "claimed" by JG7 is somewhere between a low of 136 and a high of 420.

 

However, if you check the USAAF WW2 official history, especially accounts of 8th AF encounters with 262s, you see the admitted U.S. losses were lower than even the 136 figures, as I recall.

 

somewhere between 100-200 is probably more realistic figure.

[easyhomewin]

Meteor? lel

hahaha, don't get me wrong dude, but I already see how spit and p51 gets beaten up in DCS by Bf 109K4. :-) It's so easy that someone new to ww2 dogfights, could rek a P51 without any problems.

History Channel is bad mkay?

 

I feel a bit sorry for the P51 fans out there because i like 51 and saw it live, but there is no hope for it when a 109 at same alt meets a P51.

 

I thought I'd get a few nibbles with my post haha............We agree it was just the tempest that was superior to axis planes then ;-)

 

Speaking of the history channel I'd recommend watching "hawker tempest documentary" linked below, these pilots are in better position to comment on air battles than lads playing computer games :-)

 

[Ehret]

So, yeah, the 262 will be a formidable opponent and will be a major threat to anyone trying to occupy the same airspace as a 262 (especially at altitude). Those of us down low fighting the objectives will probably fair significantly better, but we will have to be constantly on the lookout for 262s zipping in for their boom n zoom attacks.

 

To the contrary - a turbonaut (a driver in the Jug or the Lighting) should be relatively safe at +9km altitude.

Edited January 22, 2018 by Ehret

[Panthera]

The "claim" of 550 ACs shot down by 262s is highly misleading.

 

JG7 was the main unit operating 262s in 1945. Due to the loss of records, the number of kills "claimed" by JG7 is somewhere between a low of 136 and a high of 420.

 

However, if you check the USAAF WW2 official history, especially accounts of 8th AF encounters with 262s, you see the admitted U.S. losses were lower than even the 136 figures, as I recall.

 

somewhere between 100-200 is probably more realistic figure.

 

Remember this applies to both sides, something which has been made clear a long time ago when cross checking claims vs actual losses. The absolute worst case of overclaiming during the war IIRC actually comes from US escort fighters in 44-45 (US Navy claims vs the IJNAF coming a close 2nd). It didn't help that the Allies added aircraft destroyed on the ground to their list either.

 

In short any claims from either side should be taken with a large amount of salt. 

Edited January 22, 2018 by Panthera

[Sgt_Joch]

 

 

 

 

 

In short any claims from either side should be taken with a large amount of salt. 

 

agreed. That is pretty much common knowledge. Your point is?

[Panthera]

A maximum total of about 550 enemy planes destroyed (those are the claims so very likely much less than that). Was that really worth it? I will take a wild guess and say, that the entire Me 262 program cost Nazi Germany a good deal more than the cost of 550 mass produced allied aircraft + crew - even if a significant portion of those were 4-engined heavies.

 

It was the only aircraft that could knock down the bombers with near impunity, and as such it was infact their best bet and definitely a VERY far way from "not worth it". If anything they should've invested a whole lot more into the program a lot sooner and instead dropped the funding for incredibly expensive but in the ned pointless projects such as the V2 rocket.

agreed. That is pretty much common knowledge. Your point is?

 

That was litterally the point, and it's good to always point it out when talking about the subject so as not to seem onesided. Both sides used a very similar (near identical infact) confirmation procedure, the biggest difference being that the Germans had an easier time accurately confirming actual shoot downs seeing as they most often happened over their own territory. When they didn't they had exactly the same issues with overclaiming as the Allies, as evidenced during the BoB where both sides made almost comically ridiculous kill claims.

I didn't hear about this throttle regulator, can you developp about ? any link ?

 

Simply search "Me262 automatic throttle regulator", it's mentioned many times

Edited January 22, 2018 by Panthera

[Finkeren]

It was the only aircraft that could knock down the bombers with near impunity, and as such it was infact their best bet and definitely a VERY far way from "not worth it". If anything they should've invested a whole lot more into the program a lot sooner and instead dropped the funding for incredibly expensive but in the ned pointless projects such as the V2 rocket.

 

When you are fighting a war from a position of numerical and economical inferiority, any machine of war that fails to inflict more damage on the opposing force than you put into it (be it in terms of money, resources, manpower or lives) is "not worth it".

 

Whether or not the Germans could have done any better than the Me 262 is an open question, and even if they could it's not like that would've changed anything about the impossible situation the German war machine was in.

The "claim" of 550 ACs shot down by 262s is highly misleading.

 

JG7 was the main unit operating 262s in 1945. Due to the loss of records, the number of kills "claimed" by JG7 is somewhere between a low of 136 and a high of 420.

 

However, if you check the USAAF WW2 official history, especially accounts of 8th AF encounters with 262s, you see the admitted U.S. losses were lower than even the 136 figures, as I recall.

 

somewhere between 100-200 is probably more realistic figure.

 

I agree. I was trying to give the Me 262 every benefit of doubt.

[Sgt_Joch]

 

 

That was litterally the point, and it's good to always point it out when talking about the subject so as not to seem onesided. Both sides used a very similar (near identical infact) confirmation procedure, the biggest difference being that the Germans had an easier time accurately confirming actual shoot downs seeing as they most often happened over their own territory. 

 

well no, the Germans were as bad as everyone else. In Black Cross, Red Star, vol. 2, the author made a point of crosschecking "claims" against actual losses during the 1942 summer offensive. Both the LW and the VVS were overclaiming by an average factor of 3:1. Remember, the Germans were on the offensive so most planes were shot down over territory the Germans conquered.

Edited January 22, 2018 by Sgt_Joch

[MiloMorai]

 

 

That was litterally the point, and it's good to always point it out when talking about the subject so as not to seem onesided. Both sides used a very similar (near identical infact) confirmation procedure, the biggest difference being that the Germans had an easier time accurately confirming actual shoot downs seeing as they most often happened over their own territory. When they didn't they had exactly the same issues with overclaiming as the Allies, as evidenced during the BoB where both sides made almost comically ridiculous kill claims.

 

Except the Brits knew the claims were ridiculous while the Germans didn't.

[Kurfurst]

And no, it did not fight without restriction, the restriction was being available in severely limited numbers, which I hope will be represented by the situation on the servers, because 45 262 against 20 P-51 without heavy bombers would be pretty ahistorical, amirite?

Would you like to have similiar restriction on Tempests and P-38s as well?

[Panthera]

well no, the Germans were as bad as everyone else. In Black Cross, Red Star, vol. 2, the author made a point of crosschecking "claims" against actual losses during the 1942 summer offensive. Both the LW and the VVS were overclaiming by an average factor of 3:1. Remember, the Germans were on the offensive so most planes were shot down over territory the Germans conquered.

 

That's litterally what I just wrote...

Except the Brits knew the claims were ridiculous while the Germans didn't.

 

Ah yes, the infallible brits. Milo you're living in a fantasy world.

Edited January 22, 2018 by Panthera

[Panthera]

When you are fighting a war from a position of numerical and economical inferiority, any machine of war that fails to inflict more damage on the opposing force than you put into it (be it in terms of money, resources, manpower or lives) is "not worth it".

 

I'd wager a bomber with several crew were worth plenty more than any fighter with just a single crew. 

 

In short I'd be very interested to knw in what way the Germans could've spent their resources better? The Me262 was likely their very best bet out of all the projects they had going from 42 onwards, and their mistake was not investing more in it at that point. 

[Finkeren]

I'd wager a bomber with several crew were worth plenty more than any fighter with just a single crew. 

 

Yes, but are 200 bombers (or however many, certainly not 550) along with their crew worth more than the entire Me 262 program? I doubt it.

In short I'd be very interested to knw in what way the Germans could've spent their resources better? The Me262 was likely their very best bet out of all the projects they had going from 42 onwards, and their mistake was not investing more in it at that point. 

 

I'm not sure they could have done better, at least if their goal was to stop the allied bombing campaign (which wasn't gonna happen, even though they forced a short break in long range missions in 1943)

 

Arguably they could have spent their resources better just securing their vital industries against bombings. They weren't gonna turn the bombers back, better just work to minimize the damage.

 

Of course they would still have lost the war. That was pretty much given at the end of 1941 and certainly at the end of '42.  

[Panthera]

Yes, but are 200 bombers (or however many, certainly not 550) along with their crew worth more than the entire Me 262 program? I doubt it.

 

Pretty odd way of looking at it considering the operational performance of a weapons system is the result of many factors combined other than just the capability of the weapon itself.

 

Using your logic no single weapons program started by the Germans was "worth it" simply because they lost the war. 

[Rjel]

Pretty odd way of looking at it considering the operational performance of a weapons system is the result of many factors combined other than just the capability of the weapon itself.

 

Using your logic no single weapons program started by the Germans was "worth it" simply because they lost the war. 

What are those factors for success then if the capability of the weapon is in question? The end result would be based on what?

[Finkeren]

Pretty odd way of looking at it considering the operational performance of a weapons system is the result of many factors combined other than just the capability of the weapon itself.

 

Using your logic no single weapons program started by the Germans was "worth it" simply because they lost the war. 

 

Absolutely not. Any weapons program that inflicts more losses on the enemy than you put resources into it is "worth it". That goes for a lot of German weapons, the Bf 109 and Fw 190 likely among them, but also things like the Sturmgeschütz program.

 

In the end though, the Germans would probably have been better off producing more lorries and other logistical equipment and fewer fancy high-tech weapons. They sucked logistically, and proper logistics was probably the only single factor that could have saved them from some of the disasters in the East. 

Anyway, we are far off topic here. Time to get back on track.

[Ehret]

I'd wager a bomber with several crew were worth plenty more than any fighter with just a single crew. 

 

In short I'd be very interested to knw in what way the Germans could've spent their resources better? The Me262 was likely their very best bet out of all the projects they had going from 42 onwards, and their mistake was not investing more in it at that point. 

 

Hmm... Germany would have been much better had it not indulged in an ideology based on outrageous ethnic fantasies? Would cost them nothing, really; maybe a few bullets in the heads of prominent Nazis... Otherwise there is no optimal way of conducting a catastrophe - everything fails in one, eventually.

[PatrickAWlson]

Pretty odd way of looking at it considering the operational performance of a weapons system is the result of many factors combined other than just the capability of the weapon itself.

 

Using your logic no single weapons program started by the Germans was "worth it" simply because they lost the war. 

 

Well, that last sentence is actually true

 

Finkeren: Your two weapons systems were very mature systems with a long service life.  If the war had lasted longer I am pretty sure the ROI on the 262 would have looked better.  Since it didn't we'll never really know for sure. I would argue that in 1945 it was providing a much better ROI than the Me109s and FW190s.  

Hmm... Germany would have been much better had it not indulged in an ideology based on outrageous ethnic fantasies? Would cost them nothing, really; maybe a few bullets in the heads of prominent Nazis... Otherwise there is no optimal way of conducting a catastrophe - everything fails in one, eventually.

Way off topic.  True ... but still way off topic.  Nazis were bad.  Good that they were defeated.  Would have been better if the never existed.  But they did exist.  And they lost.  The end.

Edited January 22, 2018 by PatrickAWlson

[Finkeren]

Finkeren: Your two weapons systems were very mature systems with a long service life.  If the war had lasted longer I am pretty sure the ROI on the 262 would have looked better.  Since it didn't we'll never really know for sure.

 

And that exactly is the problem of introducing radical new weapon systems in the middle of a war, especially if you're losing.

 

Also: The Fw 190 only entered mass production in 1941 and the Panzer III (which was the basis for most Stugs) in 1939. Neither of them had particularly long service lives, nor where they very mature at the point where they started to prove their worth. What sets them apart from stuff like the Me 262 is the fact, that they were comparatively cheap, conventional and immediately effective. 

 Otherwise there is no optimal way of conducting a catastrophe - everything fails in one, eventually.

 

Yeah, that's true