ME262 rivals?

[OrLoK]

Hello there

 

Caveat: Im not really an aircraft buff like many here.

 

My question is the me262, being a jet, which aircraft will be able to compete with it in a one on one scenario?

 

Being an early jet will its speed benefits be compensated for by handling/CEM etc?

 

Or is it just another plane and nothing that special?

 

Im excited to fly it and dont wish to start a "OMG devs why jet???1?" slagging thread rather where does it *fit* in the line up?

 

Or, as in real life where not all things are "fair", is it a case of it was there at the time and had no equal?

 

Its a pretty thing and might make me forget my VVS loyalty!

 

Rgds

 

LoK

[GridiroN]

I don't think many people understand what the 262 is, or the historical usage of it. They just think it's a cool plane, that's a jet, and will own propellor driven opponents.

 

The 262, other than being highly difficult to fly as if you mishandle the throttle, the engines will break and you'll fall out of the sky, is so fast vs it's propellor driven opponents, you will almost never be able to hit anything unless you're an absolute legend, or you're willing to fly slow enough that propellor driven aircrafts can hit you just as easily as any other plane. 

 

The 262 was fitted with rockets for shooting down bombers because the plane was so fast the pilot only got about 1-2 seconds to line up a shot, which made actually fighting in a contemporary sense impossible. 

[ScotsmanFlyingscotsman]

The 262 was shot down on occasion, I recall some guncam footage, but you have to catch the pilot unawares and from above...your only chance to catch it. The allies started sending fighters to cover the bases it operated from, so as to get it on landing. Walter Nowotny was a famous ace killed this way, Gridiron is right the early jet engines were tempremantal and poor metal quality caused all sorts of problems. I hope though that the team keep to the a/c specs, Other sims with the 262 have the P51 pulling away! 

On that note, I find it a pain that whatever I'm flying, is not as fast as the opposition. Regardless of which a/c or side you chose. I hope that won't be the case here. Looking forward to it

[SCG_Tzigy]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.amazon.com/Me-262-Stormbird-Pilots-Survived/dp/0760342636&ved=2ahUKEwiepdH0zenYAhUR6WMKHZVJAmEQFjAAegQIDxAB&usg=AOvVaw1hq1lBB2G6xvaHu2aKBnHS

 

This is a great book.

[BlitzPig_EL]

Well, the 262 has 100mph over the P 51B and C, which had about 20mph up on the D model, so if the 262 pilot doesn't want to play with the prop jobs he simply won't have to.  If he comes down low to play with the ground pounders that are beating up his ground troops, he will have to be a very good shot, as mentioned.  If he would try to "mix it up" with the prop fighters he will have a bad day.

 

The 262 will require a lot of disciplined flying to be good in, but if properly modeled it's weaknesses will be able to be exploited.  Catch them on finals, or on takeoff, or just simply blow them up on the ramp.

[=WH=PangolinWranglin]

If a 262 is caught slow (especially on takeoff/landing) pretty much anything is a match for the 262. This is why historically you'll see lines of flak and AA emplacements leading up to the end of a runway or fighter sweeps over top of 262s that are landing. If a 262 catches you unawares or they play smart and keep their speed, opperating the throttle smoothly and carefully, the thing will be uncatchable, and with those 30mm, a force to be reckoned with. Like with most planes in this sim it'll all come down to pilot skill/flight style. 

 

Also, from what I understand, the thing was agile at high speeds. Like the 190s we have in BoX. 

[InProgress]

I don't think you need any rivals, this plane will be ultra hard to fly, when slow you won't be any good and when fast you wont hit anything unless you are really pro. This plane will be something for real aces ;D and only few will be able to use it effectively.

 

There was even interview with me262 pilot, he said it took 5min after take off to make it ready to battle, kind of like starting tank  probably will be easy to kill during landing and take off. And like he said, they were killing pilots, they could always get new planes but to fly 262 you had to be really good and pilots were worth their weight in gold

[Panthera]

To get an idea of what it's like simply try it out in the old IL2 46.

 

The key is to avoid aggressive throttle movements (unless we get the throttle regulator introduced in Dec 44, then you can be carefree with the throttle), low speed turn fights and just in general never let speed drop below ~450 km/h, above that speed however you will outaccelerate any prop fighter and even be able to turn with them for a limited amount of time. Also the low muzzle velocity of the Mk108's really aren't that big of a deal when you're closing in at 200+ km/h and you only need a single hit.

 

Thus the short answer is that once you get used to the increased speed and what the most effective maneuvering speeds are, then you should have a field day against most opposition. Hence why it was almost never present on any servers back in IL2 46.

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

I think the engine limits will have a huge effect on the effectiveness of the plane. 

 

Hopefully the self-destruct from abrupt throttle movements will be implemented differently this time. 

 

Also, should we expect time-limited engine modes or unlimited full throttle, temperatures permitting? 

[Panthera]

There really were no specific engine limits and the aircraft was usually run full throttle @ 8700 rpms most of the time. You could throttle up to 8900 rpm for a short boost, but that was naturally at the risk of overheating, which besides from being gentle with the throttle really is the main thing to keep an eye on = engine temperature. The biggest issue however really was flame outs due to aggressive throttle inputs.

Edited January 21, 2018 by Panthera

[56RAF_Roblex]

It is not just a case of 'When taking off and landing it is slow enough for a prop plane to catch';  at low speeds it was about as maneuverable as a B17 (figure of speech. Not scientific comparison).    It also takes a while to get up to speed so a typical flight is:-

 

1) Wallow into the air like a fully loaded bomber.

2) Wait patiently for it get enough speed to start responding to the controls.

3) Climb to altitude,

4) See bomber formation and start attack run.

5) Get 1 second window to fire guns as you shoot past.

6) Take 20 seconds and five miles to turn 180 degrees.

7) Discover bombers are no longer in visible range so RTB.

8) Slow down to something approaching landing speed and realise that you cannot bank more than 20 degrees without stalling.

9) Make a very wide circuit and line up 5 miles out so you don't need to turn once you have got down to approach speed.

10) Lose a kilo of sweat landing.

11) Get out and kiss the Earth.

Edited January 21, 2018 by 56RAF_Roblex

[Ehret]

Hello there

 

Caveat: Im not really an aircraft buff like many here.

 

My question is the me262, being a jet, which aircraft will be able to compete with it in a one on one scenario?

 

Being an early jet will its speed benefits be compensated for by handling/CEM etc?

 

The 262, as an early jet, shouldn't be too hot at higher altitudes so turbo-ed Jugs/Lightnings may stay relatively safe there. A smart P51 driver is going to shadow a 262 from a distance patiently waiting for a mistake... Acceleration at low/med speed is another 262 Achilles heel, so expect things getting very rough if you get caught slow.

 

So, should be kinda like a 190 (or a La5 perhaps) has but to a more extreme degree.

[Panthera]

So many who grossly underestimate this fighter, they're going to get a rude awakening :D

[SJ_Butcher]

Me 262 didn't have any rival, end of the story

[Panthera]

It is not just a case of 'When taking off and landing it is slow enough for a prop plane to catch'; at low speeds it was about as maneuverable as a B17 (figure of speech. Not scientific comparison). It also takes a while to get up to speed so a typical flight is:-

 

1) Wallow into the air like a fully loaded bomber.

2) Wait patiently for it get enough speed to start responding to the controls.

3) Climb to altitude,

4) See bomber formation and start attack run.

5) Get 1 second window to fire guns as you shoot past.

6) Take 20 seconds and five miles to turn 180 degrees.

7) Discover bombers are no longer in visible range so RTB.

8) Slow down to something approaching landing speed and realise that you cannot bank more than 20 degrees without stalling.

9) Make a very wide circuit and line up 5 miles out so you don't need to turn once you have got down to approach speed.

10) Lose a kilo of sweat landing.

11) Get out and kiss the Earth.

You do realize that the Me262 has about the same stall speed as the F-86 Sabre right? Did that plane strike you as needing 5 miles to turn 180 deg? lol

[Ehret]

So many who grossly underestimate this fighter, they're going to get a rude awakening :D

 

This would be true if G-force wasn't increasing with square of velocity... - we can expect a sudden epidemic of blackouts once the 262 will be available.

[Finkeren]

You do realize that the Me262 has about the same stall speed as the F-86 Sabre right? Did that plane strike you as needing 5 miles to turn 180 deg? lol

40 sec turn time and 5 mile turn is obviously superflous, but comparing the Me 262 to the F-86 is ridiculous. The F-86 has a much, much lower wing loading and a much, much, much better thrust/weight. On that alone it should be clear, that it will turn far better than the Me 262.

Me 262 didn't have any rival, end of the story

That is absolutely true. There was no plane quite like the Me 262 in service in any air force (no, not the early Gloster Meteors either) as such is has direct rival.

 

That doesn’t mean the Me 262 will be some kind of super plane. What it can do it does far better than any other contemporary, but it has significant weaknesses, that puts it at great risk in certain situations and puts limits on what it can actually do in combat.

[Gambit21]

Yep

 

Like I said before the 262 is easy to avoid if you know it's there - it will a challenge, but a fun one.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Unlike some posts mention the engine were not imposing a threat in mid flight but harsh increase of throttle could lead to flameouts (only on B-1 model, for the B-3 this was prevented by a throttle friction mechanism).

 

Otherwise it was straight forward to operate with RPM and engine/oil temperature. Nothing fancy or 'fragile'. The poor metals did limit engine service life but not performence.

 

Long story short there is no equivalent to the 262 on the allied side which yet doesn't make it op. There're more than enought disadvantages limiting the effective use of 262s, namely

- short range (35-45 min depending on source)

- slow rate of climb above 3500m (worse than Bf 109)

- no speedbrakes (once at speed it will carry on like a truck)

- slow acceleration especially at low speed

- long takeoff distance requiring well prepared runways

- even longer landing distance & time

- worse manouvrebility than any allied fighter

- bad turn time

- slow muzzle velocity

- very high recoil

 

If not used properly it will fail against any competent Mustang or Jug pilot as seen in other sims already.

Edited January 21, 2018 by 6./ZG26_5tuka

[Oubaas]

If I see one coming up from behind, I'll jink, cut the throttle, and when he overshoots he'll get the 37mm enema.

[ShamrockOneFive]

I'm reading through the daily actions on the 2nd TAF again and during the fall of 1944 and into early 1945 the 2nd TAF units on the continent encountered the Me262 a fair bit. And shot down at least a few as well. Sometimes by chasing them back to their base or by setting up an alert fighter ready to take-off and intercept a 262 at high speed when one was spotted by an observer.

 

In all situations these Me262s were doing bomb runs or high speed recon flights. From the descriptions it sounds like they were operating on their own. Some airbases were frequently attacked by a single Me262 which zoomed in, dropped bombs, and flew away before the gunners could get a bead. It certainly caused some issues. That's the Me262 that we're going to see I think... at least for single player and scripted campaign scenarios.

[GridiroN]

FALSE!

 

It got rockets to attack the close flying bomber formations at ones, to take down more than just one Bomber. R4M were a wall of rockets fired on the bomber formations. 

 

[Panthera]

40 sec turn time and 5 mile turn is obviously superflous, but comparing the Me 262 to the F-86 is ridiculous. The F-86 has a much, much lower wing loading and a much, much, much better thrust/weight. On that alone it should be clear, that it will turn far better than the Me 262.

 

Not so ridiculous if you want to look at turn radius which is what he was talking about, and both aircraft featured roughly the same stall speed & turn radius, which was the point.

 

Now the F-86 will turn better sustained ofcourse, but the sustained turn rate really is irrelevant when the Me262 is so much faster compared to its opposition as that means it won't ever be trying to enter a prolonged turn fight, instead it will coming in fast and zoom up out of reach after every pass, do a quick 180 and come back again. I did this a lot in IL2 '46, and in the end no propjob had any hope of touching me, the speed/energy difference is just too vast.

 

There's a reason Eric 'Wrinkle' Brown called it a quantum leap in fighter design, he wasn't joking around.

Edited January 21, 2018 by Panthera

[InProgress]

So many who grossly underestimate this fighter, they're going to get a rude awakening :D

No one is underestimating it, it was great plane and huge danger for allies, facts that they were shooting them down during landing and take off + killing pilots so they wouldn't not be able to fly it again only proves it.

 

But the only ones getting rude awakening will be axis players who will fly it and think it will be wunderwaffe. No doubt, people who play this game for thousands of hours and are experienced fighters pilot will be dangerous foes, but most people who will take this plane will most likely crash and kill themselves

[Panthera]

No one is underestimating it, it was great plane and huge danger for allies, facts that they were shooting them down during landing and take off + killing pilots so they wouldn't not be able to fly it again only proves it.

 

But the only ones getting rude awakening will be axis players who will fly it and think it will be wunderwaffe. No doubt, people who play this game for thousands of hours and are experienced fighters pilot will be dangerous foes, but most people who will take this plane will most likely crash and kill themselves

 

If everyone came in expecting that all aerial warfare is about is turning in circles at low speed, then yeah sure they will be quite disappointed with anything but a Zeke, but I'm pretty sure most simmers know this isn't the only way to fight ;-)

 

So no, there are definitely some people in here who are grossly underestimating the Me262 to such a degree that they will be absolutely horrified the first time they come across one with a competent pilot behind the controls. That much is painfully clear judging by the comments left behind so far :D

Edited January 21, 2018 by Panthera

[Ribbon]

10) Lose a kilo of sweat landing.

11) Get out and kiss the Earth.

Lol

 

I saw some documetaries P51D destroying me262.

P51D were escorting bombers and while beeing attacked by me262, p51d could catch them if they had alt advantage and diving on them.

It was on rare occasions however, if those pilots were telling the truth which i believe they did.

In any case we can always spray after them when they overshoot us.

[Gambit21]

Panthera is clearly reading this thread through a filter.

[Panthera]

Lol

 

I saw some documetaries P51D destroying me262.

P51D were escorting bombers and while beeing attacked by me262, p51d could catch them if they had alt advantage and diving on them.

It was on rare occasions however, if those pilots were telling the truth which i believe they did.

In any case we can always spray after them when they overshoot us.

 

That's the best tactic really, as all it takes is one .50 cal into the turbine blades and that engine is out. The issue then becomes catching him as he dives for the deck, as even with just one engine the Me262 is faster than most prob jobs on the deck. 

Panthera is clearly reading this thread through a filter.

 

What do you mean? I read what people write, not what they think if that's what you're getting at? :D

[Gambit21]

Panthera, with respect I just mean I see measured, carefully considered and realistic comments, a few based on experience flying it (and against it) in the old sim.

 

You seem to see a bunch of people grossly underestimating it.

I was a good stick back in the day - 13-1 kill ratio or so in Co-Ops.

 

I remember making a dozen passes on a Mustang while flying the 262 and couldn't get close to getting rounds on target because he was keeping his eye on me. I was like a knight on horseback with a lance. If I'd have sneaked up on him then yes, it would have been over right then. Conversely I never had trouble avoiding their guns either if I saw one coming.

 

It's an excellent weapon, but it's best feature against fighters is being able to stay out of reach if it loses the initiative.

Also making a pass on a bomber formation and being able to ignore the escorts - that's where it should be feared.

It will be fun to fly, and fly against in any case, but it won't be an uber weapon fighter vs fighter.

Edited January 21, 2018 by Gambit21

[Panthera]

Panthera, with respect I just mean I see measured, carefully considered and realistic comments, a few based on experience flying it (and against it) in the old sim.

 

I think you'll find I didn't start by responding to any comments that would fit that description, I strictly responded to the silly and grossly missled ones 

[Ribbon]

Was it easy to make them overshot if spotted on time by turning or they purely rely on suprise attack?

[Gambit21]

Was it easy to make them overshot if spotted on time by turning or they purely rely on suprise attack?

Extremely easy.

Like an Oscar vs a P-47 only more so.

 

I think you'll find I didn't start by responding to any comments that would fit that description, I strictly responded to the silly and grossly missled ones

Fair enough. Edited January 21, 2018 by Gambit21

[Panthera]

Was it easy to make them overshot if spotted on time by turning or they purely rely on suprise attack?

 

It depends on the closure rate. But if you've got eyes on the Me262 that's coming for you from a long way out, and don't lose him after his passes, then you can dodge his attacks by constantly turning into him and mostly deny him a good deflection shot. The problem is that spotting something that's coming in so fast is pretty damn hard at times, esp. if you also have to keep an eye out for enemy prop jobs who wont hesitate to dogfight you the old school way.

[Gambit21]

It's going to be a very rewarding aircraft to get kills with, and a rewarding aircraft to kill.

I'm looking forward to it.

[Panthera]

It's going to be a very rewarding aircraft to get kills with, and a rewarding aircraft to kill.

I'm looking forward to it.

 

Agreed, but I feel like that with most aircraft really :-)

[Eicio]

I don't see why me262s should really be "that" dangerous, the best advantage you get with this is the 4x 30mm, then it's fast but not "that" fast that is to say allies can't follow if they are on the same altitude except if the 262 is not at his full speed and I guess it takes some time for it to get to that top speed.

 

Tempests should be more than enough to take care of these.

[Panthera]

I don't see why me262s should really be "that" dangerous, the best advantage you get with this is the 4x 30mm, then it's fast but not "that" fast that is to say allies can't follow if they are on the same altitude except if the 262 is not at his full speed and I guess it takes some time for it to get to that top speed.

 

Tempests should be more than enough to take care of these.

 

The acceleration to top speed for the Me262 isn't that long, remember it outaccelerates any prob job from  ~450 km/h and up. So as long as you don't drop below that speed, well then it's gonna be real damn hard for anyone to catch you,

 

 

Btw if you fly with 1800 Liters of fuel instead of the full 2600 L, reducing the take off weight from 7100 kg to 6400 kg, then the Me262 can climb at well over 5000 ft/min.

Edited January 21, 2018 by Panthera

[Gambit21]

A 262 that maintains its speed will be untouchable - that's what makes it so good at attacking bomber formations....speed plus that armament made it devastating against bomber boxes.

[Panthera]

A 262 that maintains its speed will be untouchable - that's what makes it so good at attacking bomber formations....speed plus that armament made it devastating against bomber boxes.

 

It also shined as a night fighter where it proved a real menace for Mosquitos,

[Ehret]

The acceleration to top speed for the Me262 isn't that long, remember it outaccelerates any prob job from  ~450 km/h and up. So as long as you don't drop below that speed, well then it's gonna be real damn hard for anyone to catch you,

 

This is intriguing because at similar speed P51's ramjet radiator starts to gain efficiency, too.