Question on standard Luftwaffe organization

[TP_Fritz]

Hey all - I'm working on would could be a big project in the ME, and as a result have a question about the organization of Luftwaffe Gruppes during the war (well, specifically during the summer 1942 to spring 1943 period).  Specifically, what I'm hunting for is how the individual aircraft within a Gruppe would have been numbered / identified.

 

Now, forgetting for a moment that the situation at the front was extremely fluid and caused lots of changes in the structure of a Gruppe due to damage, mechanical problems, and combat losses, how would a typical Gruppe's planes be numbered / identified in - lets say - a pre-combat "perfect" situation?

 

To set up an example, lets say for the sake of argument that I'm using the 3rd Gruppe (III Gruppe) of a given geschwader as my model, with the typical three Staffeln and three schwarms per Staffeln.  I know that all the planes would be identified with the Gruppe marker behind the bar cross on the fuselage with either a double wavy bar or a vertical bar.  Furthermore, each Staffeln (numbered 7, 8, and 9 in this example) within the Gruppe would have their identifying marks (numbers and Gruppe identifier) color coded - in this example it would be white for the 7th Staffeln, black for the 8th Staffeln, and yellow for the 9th Staffeln.  So with all that set - how would the aircraft be numbered throughout the Gruppe's Staffeln?  Does each Staffeln start at 1 with the first plane (for example, 1 + | ) and continue until the twelfth plane (i.e., 12 + | ) and then start again with the next Staffeln?

 

Sorry for the length of this, and potentially far more info that is necessary for the question, but I just want to be sure I'm getting the organization down correctly.  It's quite possible that I've confused myself and have made this more complex than it actually is.

[TP_Silk]

From what I've seen there was no hard and fast rule, but generally yes, each Staffel would consist of numbers 1-12 for fighter units. It appears that Heavy Fighters *Bf-110) and most bomber units used letter marking rather than numbers though.

 

You may find some of these useful:

http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/markings.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organization_of_the_Luftwaffe_(1933%E2%80%9345)

http://www.chronicles-of-the-luftwaffe.de/?page_id=58

http://www.ww2.dk/misc/unitid.htm

[TP_Fritz]

Great - thanks Silk.  Fighter units are more of what I'm looking for, but the information on heavy fighters and bombers is definitely useful as well.  I'll give the linked pages a good look over also.

[JG7_X-Man]

cerebus06 - I believe the links Silk provided will give you relatively what you need to a point. To add to what Silk said, most Jabo units use letters too, but not all example SG. 2. However SKG. 10 did. If I were to give a suggestion, some of us have thousands of  USD in research material (I counted 40 Osprey books at $25 average each). My Jane's Battles with the Luftwaffe ran me $100, the two Red Star Black Cross, the two Fighter Aircraft in Profile, 6 month's to Oblivion, some 30 others etc... what I am trying to say is what you are asking takes years to acquire, like Silk said - it's not cut and dry, but the more profiles you come across, you start to see a pattern. Thus, it would be easier to get someone to help you with the historic aspect and you focus on the mission building part. Just a thought.

Edited January 30, 2018 by JG7_X_Man

[TP_Fritz]

Thanks, and I understand completely - I myself have a similar library, it just doesn't include a lot of specifics on the Luftwaffe unfortunately (it mostly concerns the ground war, Battle of the Atlantic, as well as a bunch of other periods in history).

 

But to be clear, I'm not necessarily attempting to emulate 100% a given unit.  I'm more interested in what the standards would be in a perfect situation so I can model what I'm working on based upon that standard setup.  The mission(s) themselves are fictional, while the historical situation is based upon as much realistic data as I have on hand and can find (front movements, specific actions on certain dates, and even weather data).

 

Having said that, in the opinion of those of you here, would you think it better to develop a fictional unit as well?  Or base the player's unit off a real unit?  What I'm working on has a basis in the activities of III Gruppe, JG3, and while I'm sure I could find actual mission data for the unit during this period, that's not really what I'm wanting to do as far as the missions themselves go.

[JG7_X-Man]

If you ask me - I would say semi historic-would be sufficient.

[unreasonable]

Thanks, and I understand completely - I myself have a similar library, it just doesn't include a lot of specifics on the Luftwaffe unfortunately (it mostly concerns the ground war, Battle of the Atlantic, as well as a bunch of other periods in history).

 

But to be clear, I'm not necessarily attempting to emulate 100% a given unit.  I'm more interested in what the standards would be in a perfect situation so I can model what I'm working on based upon that standard setup.  The mission(s) themselves are fictional, while the historical situation is based upon as much realistic data as I have on hand and can find (front movements, specific actions on certain dates, and even weather data).

 

Having said that, in the opinion of those of you here, would you think it better to develop a fictional unit as well?  Or base the player's unit off a real unit?  What I'm working on has a basis in the activities of III Gruppe, JG3, and while I'm sure I could find actual mission data for the unit during this period, that's not really what I'm wanting to do as far as the missions themselves go.

 

My suggestion would be that you decide what sort of unit you are looking for, the date, theater of war etc, then post what you propose and ask for comments.  It is easier to point out something that is clearly wrong than to make a generalization.

 

But for the record, for a standard JG, you should use markings as per this page which sets it out pretty clearly and concisely.  For mid war you would use only Black for 2nd Staffel, (obviously red markings a problem when fighting Soviets), and JGs at that time had a 12 aircraft per Staffel, 3 Staffels per Gruppe as a standard. 4th Staffel (blue numbers) and 4th Gruppe being a late war organization - OK for BoBd.

 

http://www.486th.org/Aircraft/Markings/

Edited February 1, 2018 by unreasonable

[Stig]

Actually, a Jagdgeshwader in this period (early mid war) would have a Stab with 4 aircraft, 3 Gruppe each with a Stab with 4 aircraft and 3 Stafffeln with 12 aircraft. Generally, they also had one or more independent. Staffeln , such as Jabo, Erg. (operational training) and at least in the case of Jg 2 and Jg26 after converting to Fw 190A, a Hôhe Staffel (high altitude) flying Bf 109G-1's. 

 

It's quite a complex organisation.

[II./JG1_Kliegmann]

The numbers on the aircraft also has a meaning.  So, within JG1, I am the flight leader of 3rd flight, which means my number is 31, 3 for 3rd flight, and 1 for 1st aircraft of 3rd flight.  #32 is my wingman, #33 is 2nd element leader and #34 is his wingman..

[unreasonable]

The numbers on the aircraft also has a meaning.  So, within JG1, I am the flight leader of 3rd flight, which means my number is 31, 3 for 3rd flight, and 1 for 1st aircraft of 3rd flight.  #32 is my wingman, #33 is 2nd element leader and #34 is his wingman..

 

That is absolutely not how the German air force numbered their single seater fighter aircraft, what ever your MP squadron does. Aircraft in JGs were marked by bars etc for Gruppe, colour of numbers for staffel, and numbered within Staffel - ie from one upwards for each staffel.  Which is why you will struggle to find a WW2 picture of a German fighter from a JG with a number higher than 16.

 

 Quite apart from that, it would not necessarily be the case that the staffel leader would have plane number 1, his wingman 2 and so on. This may have happened when a unit was re-requipped with a new type, but once operations started and planes on strength began to be unserviceable the reality was far more messy.

[TP_Fritz]

Wow, thanks for all the info.

 

I do have a question though, in regards to the information on the page you linked @unreasonable.  There, it states:

 

Each Jagdgeschwader was broken down into four Gruppen (groups), which in turn were divided into three Staffeln (wings). Each Staffel was then made up of three Ketten (flights) which operated with 3 aircraft. There was also a Jagdgeschwaderstab (staff) of 4 aircraft (a 4 aircraft section was called a Schwarm), and a Gruppenstab with 3 aircraft each for every Gruppe.

 

This is confusing, because elsewhere - like the Organization of the Luftwaffe page on Wikipedia and several other pages I've found (a couple of the links Silk provided and here - Jagdgeschwader Structure)  - suggest that Staffeln were organized into a single schwarm of 4 planes, rather than what's shown above (for fighters that is - apparently bomber units were organized in units of 3, or Ketten from what I've read... unless that's not correct).  Additionally, pages such as Figuring out Luftwaffe Fighter Codes suggest 4 planes in the Gruppe Stab unit also, instead of 3.  3 planes per Staffeln seems to be how things were organized in the years before the war - or at least that's how I'm reading the data.

 

Please note I'm not trying to cause angst - just trying to find out which is correct.  The primary reason for all this is because I'm working on a campaign, and I am looking to have each aircraft in the Gruppe identified with a specific skin for that plane that shows it's (nominally) correct identifiers.

[unreasonable]

Wow, thanks for all the info.

 

I do have a question though, in regards to the information on the page you linked @unreasonable.  There, it states:

 

 

This is confusing, because elsewhere - like the Organization of the Luftwaffe page on Wikipedia and several other pages I've found (a couple of the links Silk provided and here - Jagdgeschwader Structure)  - suggest that Staffeln were organized into a single schwarm of 4 planes, rather than what's shown above (for fighters that is - apparently bomber units were organized in units of 3, or Ketten from what I've read... unless that's not correct).  Additionally, pages such as Figuring out Luftwaffe Fighter Codes suggest 4 planes in the Gruppe Stab unit also, instead of 3.  3 planes per Staffeln seems to be how things were organized in the years before the war - or at least that's how I'm reading the data.

 

Please note I'm not trying to cause angst - just trying to find out which is correct.  The primary reason for all this is because I'm working on a campaign, and I am looking to have each aircraft in the Gruppe identified with a specific skin for that plane that shows it's (nominally) correct identifiers.

 

First point is to be clear that the organization changed before and during the war, so you either have to have the whole story, or pick a particular date and just worry about that.  All the below is from memory but said with reasonable confidence:

 

The organization of fighter units was different to that of bomber units. Bomber units did use the 3 ship Kette as a standard basic unit throughout the war, fighter units changed from the 3 ship Kette to a 4 ship Schwarm of two pairs before WW2 started. I think they developed it from their Spanish Civil War experience. 

 

A staffel was roughly equivalent to an RAF squadron - in the early war period the standard staffel contained two schwarms, but the trouble with this is that it guaranteed being outnumbered if the staffel met up with a full strength RAF squadron which would operate during the BoB with four three ship flights. (Of course they were not always at full strength.)  So the GAF increased their staffel establishment to 12 ships, in three schwarmen.    Even later in the war, (1944 IIRC) the standard staffel size was increased to 16.  They were trying to keep up with the sheer numbers of planes the Allies could put into the air while economizing on leaders.

 

Another thing to take on board is that a German JG would hardly ever operate at full establishment strength. Even at day 1 of Barbarossa, many fighter gruppes with an establishment strength of 40 actually only had mid 30s serviceable.  4  for the Gruppe HQ is right (well spotted: I think the web-page has that wrong) - but in practice the number might vary, since higher ranked officers had a bad habit of stashing a couple of spares so that they could carry on scoring when their main mount was in need of service. 

 

Given the timescale of BoX currently, for a fighter Gruppe, an HQ of 4 and three staffels of 12, flying in schwarms of 4, for a total of 40 ships, would be the normal establishment.  The unit would operate with whatever they could keep serviceable out of that, which might occasionally even mean having schwarms drawn from aircraft and pilots from different staffels.  Stig is right that there could be other elements of the JG organization, but TBH I would not worry about that, at least until you have nailed down what your Gruppe organization and marking scheme should look like.

 

That is about as much as I can add - if you want to know more details and how it changed over time you are going to have to start investing in the text books.

[TP_Fritz]

Thanks again - and that is exactly what I got out of all the research so far with your, and everyone else's, help.  The BoS timescale is particularly the time period I'm looking at - roughly August 1942 through February 1943.  The comments on the serviceable planes versus a "perfect" Gruppe strength is well noted... my goal is to basically begin with the (nearly) full strength Gruppe size but then begin to lose that integrity as the campaign progresses (in an effort to mirror some realism there).

Edited February 9, 2018 by cerebus06