A WWII Spitfire pilot honoured.

[DD_Arthur]

I still stare and amaze myself at how a simple post at a Forum, with an interesting theme, some totally innocent piece of info, can light a discussion of sometimes hundreds of flamed posts...

 

It's a very interesting ground for Behavioural Science investigation, I guess... Simply start a thread with a composition of words that can look like something not totally out of context, given the Forum base theme, and wait for the effect to build up :-)

 

WTF ( sorry... ) - the OP just wanted to transmit some interesting article on a "girl" whose gone older, to the "dreds" ( from hun-dred... ) class, and was once a delivery pilot working for RAF. Isn't it nice to know ?

 

[NZTyphoon]

I'm still with Wulf on this one.

 

You're all so busy trying to defend the female pilot, in some sort of fluffy, cuddly protective, modern male way that you've lost all objectively.

 

You are all jumping up and down on Wulf, not because what he says isn't true, which you all, because you are all better informed than the average Joe, know to be true, even if modern sentiment blinds you to common reason.

 

 

Thus, woe betide any man who dares to assert the rights of an ATA woman to be called a Spitfire pilot, because thou shalt forever be condemned as being "fluffy, cuddly, protective, third-wave-feminist, politically correct and non-masculine".    

[Cybermat47]

You're all so busy trying to defend the female pilot, in some sort of fluffy, cuddly protective, modern male way that you've lost all objectively.

You’re making it sound as though we’re defending her because she’s a woman. We aren’t. We’re defending her because she did her part in the war, and did great things for aviation on the Isle of Wight. She’s one of the most notable people to come from the Isle of Wight, so why not give her the Freedom of the Isle of Wight?

 

I’d be equally as supportive of the Freedom being granted if she was a man.

 

She wasn't. For one very simple and clear reason, she never used the aircraft for it's intended purpose.

Okay, I’ll go and tell all the people who flew RAAF F-111s that they’re not actually F-111 pilots.

[Wulf]

Fascinating logic.

 

So let's say I'm employed by a Formula One racing team to move their cars from one event to the next.  Does this make me a F1 racing car driver?  Would the people who actually do the racing regard me as an F1 racing car driver? 

 

According to the brains trust above, I'm guessing I am, and they would.

 

Jesus....  

[MiloMorai]

The F1 cars are not driven on the road but put in haulers.

 

If one has clearance/sertification to fly a certain a/c and flies that a/c then one is a pilot of that a/c.

[unreasonable]

I'm still with Wulf on this one.

 

You're all so busy trying to defend the female pilot, in some sort of fluffy, cuddly protective, modern male way that you've lost all objectively.

 

The bone of contention is not what she did, or achieved or even how dangerous, or not it was, it is simply the headline, describing her as a "WW2 Spitfire pilot".

 

She wasn't. For one very simple and clear reason, she never used the aircraft for it's intended purpose. The phrase " WW2 Spitfire pilot" is loaded with meaning beyond that of a simple sentence and suggests something she was not. Had she only delivered Ansons or Dakotas or Tiger Moths would that have made her any less deserving of praise ?

 

What is sad is that somehow serving in the ATA and doing all that they did was somehow not worthy enough in and of itself.

 

You are all jumping up and down on Wulf, not because what he says isn't true, which you all, because you are all better informed than the average Joe, know to be true, even if modern sentiment blinds you to common reason.

 

It is really sad because it belittles so much bravery, courage, service and sacrifice. As you get older and wiser ( hopefully) you begin to appreciate that not all heroes are Ramboesque supermen but that doesn't mean every action that might require gritted teeth and courage is somehow heroic.

 

Salute her courage, endevour and spirit of adventure but don't belittle it, and by association all other ATA pilots,by subscribing to falsehoods and "fake" news just because the headline panders to modern sentiment and limited general knowledge It does you all a disservice.

 

Hagar, this is getting it all wrong, in particular projecting motivations that are simply not there.

 

The article does not describe Mary Ellis as a heroine. It says "Isle of Wight Council leader Dave Stewart described her an "national, international and Island heroine"."  Simple reporting of direct speech.

 

In the other related article linked to the OP's " Mrs Ellis said the Spitfire has always been her favourite aircraft, she said: "I love it, it's everybody's favourite. I think it's a symbol of freedom." "

 

In addition it may well be the only WW2 aircraft a large proportion of the readers of this article could name.  That is why the headlines include the word Spitfire: and why not. Good editing.

 

"You're all so busy trying to defend the female pilot, in some sort of fluffy, cuddly protective, modern male way that you've lost all objectively."  This is patently absurd: protecting women is not at all modern, it is traditional. Modern feminists do not think women need protecting by men (until they do), indeed any man seeking to protect women (until they decide that they need it) is deemed to be oppressing and patronizing them.

 

As to growing older and wiser - I have no idea who wins the "age game" or why you even think this is relevant, but at the age of 62 implying that I (and I expect some other critics) lack the age to form objective judgments is as wide of the mark as Wulf is in accusing me of being a feminist.    (First time that has ever happened!)

 

You are simply reading far too much into the headline - quite why you and Wulf find this usage so objectionable is an interesting matter, so if you want to continue to speculate on the psychology and motivations of why people are disagreeing with you perhaps we should discuss your motivations as well.  

 

This old MCP is quite happy to recognize Mary Ellis as a Spitfire pilot, and a heroine in her own way, volunteering to do what she could in a dangerous job to help her country in its hour of need - the maximum that she was allowed to do under the conventions of the time. 

[JG5_Zesphr]

Just for the record, Eric Brown was a combat veteran, before he became a test pilot.

 

yea flying wildcats for the FAA, however his most accomplished achievement was out of combat as a test pilot where it is apparently easier

[Pail]

 

 

Is an interesting book (but i must admit I haven't read it properly....I might now).

 

 

On the males of the Air Transport Auxiliary it says...

 

"To be eligible for membership you had to be ineligible for the RAF but still able to fly.

That ruled out clear-eyed, coordinated, brave young men; but it ruled in a different sort of elite;

one of oddballs, intellectuals, artists, bank managers, civil servants, wounded veterans

and Francis 'Frankie' Francis - flying ace, backgammon ace, ex-Guards officer and raven-headed millionaire from the North shore of Lake Geneva."

 

The women were initially only allowed to fly were trainers initially De Havilland Moths and later Miles Magisters and they jokingly referred to themselves as the "Ancient and Tattered Airmen" as a comment on the state of the planes.

 

"The women had to struggle for nearly to years to be allowed in fighters, and five before they started flying them to Europe"

...and were rather cruelly given the nickname "Always Terrified Airwomen"

 

Of the women it says :

 

The simple fact of having learned to fly before the war made them an elite within an elite.

Their eventual success in operational aircraft in the teeth of RAF resistance only compounded their Kudos.

They were marshalled by the daughter of a prominent Tory MP, championed by a powerful handful of 'pro-women' men,

and led through the air by the likes of Lettice Curtis.

They were a close-knit group, barely twenty strong. Many knew each other from Stag Lane, Heston, and Brooklands - London's most famous pre-war flying clubs.

Most were from monied backgrounds, with accents and assumptions to match.

Those that were not were ruthlessly frugal.

Some were well known, especially to the society editors of the Daily Sketch and the Picture Post.

They were the 'It Girls' doing their bit but their was nothing superficial about their courage and motivation.

On the contrary, their defining traits were inner steel and a fierce if usually unspoken patriotism."

 

I'm not sure but i suspect it may have been those media outlets that first called them 'spitfire women/girls' because of course as well as rich many were hotties.....

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think Wulf is just misplacing his anger at the elites...

Edited January 21, 2018 by Pail

[kendo]

...

The bone of contention is not what she did, or achieved or even how dangerous, or not it was, it is simply the headline, describing her as a "WW2 Spitfire pilot".

 

She wasn't. For one very simple and clear reason, she never used the aircraft for it's intended purpose. The phrase " WW2 Spitfire pilot" is loaded with meaning beyond that of a simple sentence and suggests something she was not. Had she only delivered Ansons or Dakotas or Tiger Moths would that have made her any less deserving of praise ?

 

What is sad is that somehow serving in the ATA and doing all that they did was somehow not worthy enough in and of itself.

 

...

 

 

Fascinating logic.

 

So let's say I'm employed by a Formula One racing team to move their cars from one event to the next.  Does this make me a F1 racing car driver?  Would the people who actually do the racing regard me as an F1 racing car driver? 

 

According to the brains trust above, I'm guessing I am, and they would.

 

Jesus....  

 

You do realise that by this logic every modern-day Spitfire display pilot who demonstrates the aircraft at airshows is not a Spitfire 'pilot' either.

 

Maybe the BBMF guys need to be given a new 'designation' that better reflects their 'non-piloting' status?

 

Buggered if I know what that would be though.

Edited January 21, 2018 by kendo

[Rolling_Thunder]

I'm thinking that hagar and wulf have a problem with vaginas. I can't see any other reason for their horror at this story. Somehow it's emasculating for them to read about a female with the skill to fly a spitfire. Practice, practice, practice and maybe one day you will handle the virtual spitfire as well as this lady handled the real thing.

[AndyJWest]

Of all the forums to argue about who is or isn't a 'pilot', one dedicated to a game where people sit behind a computer screen pretending to be one might seem the least appropriate, at least to an outsider I'd suspect. 

 

As for who is or isn't a hero or heroine, clearly this comes down to opinion, but if the people of the Isle of Weight want to suggest that Ms Ellis is one, I'm not going to argue. And as for this being down to 'political correctness', somehow I'd never seen the Isle as being a bastion of cultural leftism. From what I've heard (not been there for many years) the ferry trip still exhibits much the same peculiar time-warp behaviour and you still find yourself fifty years behind the times when you dock at Ryde. In fact I wonder whether the islanders chose to honour Ms Ellis because they think the war is still going on.    

Edited January 21, 2018 by AndyJWest

[Wolfram-Harms]

Great photos there! As for the first pic: I hadn't known that Kate Bush had flown the spitfire..

As for the 3rd photo - aerh - well, ahem... I think I better keep it for myself...

Edited January 21, 2018 by Wolfram-Harms

[AndyJWest]

... hadn't known that Kate Bush had flown the spitfire..

...

 

The way she used to wave her arms around, I don't think she needed one...

[ZachariasX]

 

 

As for the 3rd photo - aerh - well, ahem... I think I better keep it for myself...

 

Maureen Dunlop, exiting a Barracuda. She had the rating for 38 types of aircraft, logging up to 800 hours. She ferried mostly Spitfires, although her favourite was the Mosquito.

[Wolfram-Harms]

Couldn't resist - I made a "funny" tabloid of the pics. Of course it is NOT funny, but typically male and sexistic...

 

Edited January 21, 2018 by Wolfram-Harms

[Rolling_Thunder]

[Leaf]

When are you women going to stop your endless bitching...?

 

 

Wow. Just wow. 

 

[Pail]

Great photos there!

 

Most of them are in the book but that's not where I got those from. I'll have to try and put some from the book with their captions on here.

 

It has a different version of the 'two formidable ladies' taken at the same time with the caption "Curtis(left) and Gower in the cockpit of an Anson*. As their body language suggests they did not always see eye to eye."

 

Some of the captions are pretty funny and/or sad. I could see the Lettice Curtis and Pauline Gower meme become a thing.

 

* It seems the author made a mistake and it is actually an Airspeed Oxford.

 

 

https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/research/online-exhibitions/taking-flight/personal-experiences/second-world-war/flight-sergeant-hj-curtis.aspx

Edited January 21, 2018 by Pail

[Wolfram-Harms]

However - I had no idea the Brits had such beautiful pilots as Maureen Dunlop!

Had the Germans only known - maybe the Luftwaffe would have stopped pestering them?

Edited January 22, 2018 by Wolfram-Harms

[Bearcat]

Thanks for the advice. I did read it and I'm still left wondering.  

 

So your saying it's one of those symbolic feel good things.  Like a participation certificate; that sort of thing.  Okay, fine. 

 

 

I find this comment astonishing and obnoxious. You clearly have no understanding of the part that this lady and her colleagues played in the war and even if it isn't a deserved award (which it is) then deliberately being negative about someone of that age and flight experience is to say the least surprising.

You are NOT a good person.

 

 

Let's see if I'm missing anything.  She flew aircraft from one place to another.  She slept in a warm bed most every night and in all probability never got shot at.  I suspect, unlike a lot of other people, that she had quite an enjoyable war.

 

You're obviously some sort of third wave feminist or something, so just keep on virtue signalling or whatever it is that you do to substitute for masculinity.  I'd rather focus on all those poor bastards who actually put themselves in harm's way.  Mostly guys, mostly forgotten, mostly they never got to live a life.

 

 

When are you women going to stop your endless bitching...?

 

 

 

I am going to take issue with this as well - since it entirely ignores what is actually in the article. The headline says "Spitfire Pilot..." (which is accurate) and the very next piece of text describes how she delivered 1000 aircraft, including bombers. No where does it say, suggest, hint or insinuate that she flew Spitfires in battle.

 

Some more from the text:

168 women, including volunteers from the USA and other nations, served in the ATA during the war

About 15 female ATA members were killed during World War Two, including aviation pioneer Amy Johnson

 

That is a 9% death rate - not near Bomber Command levels, but somewhat greater than those of the armed services as a whole according to the figures I can find.   

 

Your post reminds me of the  "all must have prizes" approach taken nowadays towards school children.  In no way does recognition of one person cheapen the contribution of others. Recognizing the achievements of old people is a "feel good" exercise, I can agree with that - I expect the lady in question enjoyed the attention, while the others involved had an opportunity to reflect on a part of our history.  I find it extraordinary that people can be so curmudgeonly that they feel the need to sneer.

 

Edit - whoops simultaneous with NZ's making the same post.  I did wonder why you had upvoted?????

 

 

I'm still with Wulf on this one.

 

You're all so busy trying to defend the female pilot, in some sort of fluffy, cuddly protective, modern male way that you've lost all objectively.

 

The bone of contention is not what she did, or achieved or even how dangerous, or not it was, it is simply the headline, describing her as a "WW2 Spitfire pilot".

 

She wasn't. For one very simple and clear reason, she never used the aircraft for it's intended purpose. The phrase " WW2 Spitfire pilot" is loaded with meaning beyond that of a simple sentence and suggests something she was not. Had she only delivered Ansons or Dakotas or Tiger Moths would that have made her any less deserving of praise ?

 

What is sad is that somehow serving in the ATA and doing all that they did was somehow not worthy enough in and of itself.

 

You are all jumping up and down on Wulf, not because what he says isn't true, which you all, because you are all better informed than the average Joe, know to be true, even if modern sentiment blinds you to common reason.

 

It is really sad because it belittles so much bravery, courage, service and sacrifice. As you get older and wiser ( hopefully) you begin to appreciate that not all heroes are Ramboesque supermen but that doesn't mean every action that might require gritted teeth and courage is somehow heroic.

 

Salute her courage, endevour and spirit of adventure but don't belittle it, and by association all other ATA pilots,by subscribing to falsehoods and "fake" news just because the headline panders to modern sentiment and limited general knowledge It does you all a disservice.

 

How many people PERIOD .. from this generation.. who actually played some kind of role in the fight.. for the winning side.... still around to honor? 

 

LOCKING. 

 

KUDOS to her.