Gunner Positions feel very Clumsy

[Pupo]

Recently I've been experimenting with the Bombers in the Game, and although they are a joy to fly around, using the gunner positions has been, so far, a very frustrating experience.

I'm currently playing the game on the Realism setting, using a track IR, and the mouse to control the guns.

The issues for seem to steam from the way the game behaves depending on the state of the two controls you have to interact with the guns. These being the commands "Turret: Take/Leave control" and "Turret: Nestle to Gun sight".

When using the frontal gunner position of a HE111 H-6, I experience these issues:

1. With "Turret: Nestle to Gun sight: OFF" and "Turret: Take/Leave control: OFF":

•  Moving the mouse will attempt to move the head of the gunner, clashing with track IR.

2. With "Turret: Nestle to Gun sight: OFF" and "Turret: Take/Leave control: ON":

• Track IR stops working. I can't look around.
•  A gamy floating yellow cross-hair will appear.
• The mouse will control the gun, but it will overshoot the gun range, and can be used to look around the pit.

3. With "Turret: Nestle to Gun sight: ON" and "Turret: Take/Leave control: ON":

• Track IR works, but the movements are much slower than what normally is
• A gamy floating yellow cross-hair will appear, if I overshoot gun range.
• My view will shift faster than the gun-sight.

4. With "Turret: Nestle to Gun sight: ON" and "Turret: Take/Leave control: OFF":

• Moving the mouse will attempt to move the head of the gunner, clashing with track IR.

The experience only gets worst when I jump into the ventral gunner, where I simply can't figure out how to use any of the guns in a consistent manner. My character spends most of its time looking at the interior of the cabin, and I can't figure out how to reliably switch between guns (sometimes, pressing "Turret: Nestle to Gun sight", works, sometimes it doesn't).

There is a big chance I'm doing something wrong, or have some poorly set up keys. If such is the case, please let me know. Else, here is my suggestion on how the gunner controls should work for a less cumbersome experience:

• Track IR should work, no matter what, always with the same settings. It shouldn't be harder for me to move my head, just because I'm operating the gun. It shouldn't stop working just because I'm at the gun.
• Guns should only have an "on/off" control. One key. If you are at the gun, you are looking down the sight. If you have multiple positions ( such as the ventral gunner in the HE111 ), this command should cycle between off->gunner_1->gunner_2->off.
• When using Track ir, the mouse should only control the guns. For non-track IR users, a modifier key, could be implemented to allow looking around when using the gun (as implemented in FPS games, eg.: the ARMA series or PUBG).
• Mouse control should not overshoot the gun range. If I'm at the maximum simulated gun movement range, I'm stuck to that. As implemented in IL-2 1946.
• The gun should not lag behind the mouse input. If I move the mouse too fast, for the maximum simulated gun movement velocity, the excessive input gets ignored. My view centre should stay at the gun sight always.
• The sensitivity of the mouse should not be dependent on the zoom level.
• If playing on Realism settings, no floating yellow sight.

Feel free to correct me If I'm using any of the game features wrong, am unaware of how to use the gunners correctly, or to improve on m suggestions. Also, this thread is for the discussion of the player gunner controls, NOT about AI gunner performance/skill.

 

Have a nice one,

Pupo

 

 

TLDR: I believe the experience of playing as a gunner to be clumsy, I also believe it could be "easily" reworked to provide a much more joyful experience.

Edited January 13, 2018 by Pupo

[Pupo]

- another button on the base of the stick to switch between guns in the ventral position etc.

 

 

What key would this be? I can't figure this one out.

Edited January 13, 2018 by Pupo

[OrLoK]

I too feel that the gunner positions could use some love, especially for us VR users

[Pupo]

That one is "Switch to a next firing point in the current turret" in the Weapons menu. L_Shift + C by default I believe.

 

 

That really helped. Thank you. I really think these three commands,  "Switch to a next firing point in the current turret" ,   "Turret: Nestle to Gun sight", and "Turret: Take/Leave control", could be merged into a single one, without loss of practical functionality.

 

 

I too feel that the gunner positions could use some love, especially for us VR users

 

 

 

When compared to  problems I experience, what are the problems VR users experience? 

[OrLoK]

VR restriction ends up with head being "pushed" around which can really cause sickness issues.

 

(Moderators: My apologies for accidentally sending this via a report...doh!)

[Royal_Flight]

I use TrackIR as well, and hav my joystick set up as follows:

 

- button on the base of the stick to switch from switch between the pilot view, through the gunner views and back.

 

- another button on the base of the stick to switch between guns in the ventral position etc.

 

- the button on top of my stick that I use for brakes is also programmed for taking control of the gun.

 

- another button on top of my stick that I use to re-center TrackIR is also programmed to nestle to gunsight.

 

Not perfect, and doesn't solve all the problems you mentioned...but works pretty seamlessly now for me.

Can you control the guns by using trackIR then?

I'll have to try this out.

 

Definitely agree that the gunner position could be much easier to use than it is at present.

 

Also I have a Thrustmaster TWCS throttle with a mini-stick on it, I've tried to set it so I can control the gunner with that but it seemingly can't be done, which seems flawed and is disappointing. If I could set it this way I wouldn't need to lift my hands to use the mouse, which is the whole point of a HOTAS to begin with.

Anyone know if this is possible?

[Yogiflight]

 

 

That really helped. Thank you. I really think these three commands, "Switch to a next firing point in the current turret" , "Turret: Nestle to Gun sight", and "Turret: Take/Leave control", could be merged into a single one, without loss of practical functionality.

They were divided by purpose, to simulate the time the gunner needs to bring his gun into firing position and aim through the iron sight, and for the ventral and the waist gunner, to change between the two weapon positions. And lets be honest, with set those three commands to the right keys, you are still much faster than the RL gunners were. Using Track IR, I use the Coolie Hat left for changing positions, right for changing side in one firing position, up for nestling to gun sight, and I take control of my gun with the right mouse button. When you are used to it, you lose pretty no time, as you do it while looking for your target.

[Pupo]

They were divided by purpose, to simulate the time the gunner needs to bring his gun into firing position and aim through the iron sight, and for the ventral and the waist gunner, to change between the two weapon positions. 

 

I agree with this decision. I really like the animations that we get when we the gunner "activates the gun", and I do not suggest removing them. My suggestion is just to collapse the 3 keys that you currently have to one. Both the animations and delay between changing positions, should definitely remain.

Edited January 14, 2018 by Pupo

[Avimimus]

I'd like to see more effects on the player from the pilot manoeuvring the plane (e.g. at least in some cases)

 

However, my top priority for improvement: Being able to manually raise or lower the horizontal bar used by the gunner in the Ju-52. This might not seem that important - but it'll matter a lot more for WWI aircraft which used these types of turrets.

 

It is really annoying to aim downward over the side of the aircraft only to have the gun automatically move lower and thus reduce its field of fire downward! This should have its own control and not be automatic!!

[WIS-Redcoat]

They are really cool in VR but obviously not designed for VR. Some work cleaning up crew positions would be welcome

[Pupo]

Positions are very clumsy. My preferences :

 

 

 

Moving to a gun position automatically gives control of the gun and you're looking down the sight.

 

  - This might be undesirable since operating the guns in some planes comes with a aircraft performance penalty. You might want to be at the gunner position looking around.

Remove the ability to control the aircraft while in any gunner position

 

 - I think removing this ability is also a bad idea. if you can always activate the level stabilizer (Available for all planes) while at the guns.

 

Enable gun control by the joystick instead.

 

 - Me too, would like to see this as a possibility.

Have a distinct zoom position setting on gun positions (not shared with pilot view)

 

 - Why would this be necessary? it would just add even more redundant keys that one has to configure.

[Nil]

I agree they feel clumsy.

So much hard work modeling the gunner station and it is sad to see how it is difficult to control them,

but I found a solution:

 Bind "Turret: Take/Leave control" and "Turret: Nestle to Gun sight" and "reload" on the SAME buton (right mouse bouton)

so now it is much better.

Let me know if it helps

Edited January 18, 2018 by 1./TG1_Nil

[Nil]

I just think that flying an aircraft when you're sat in the back seat is not good, I'm the gunner when there, not the pilot. The joystick control of the aircraft would have to stop if it is to be used to move the gun.

Microsoft Combat Flight simulator had this limitation. so It was simply a disaster to fly bomber.

You were eather a pilot not be able to make evasive actions as you could not watch for bandits, 

Or you were a siting duck in your gunner position with a peashooter.

Gosh I hate so much this game!!

 

On the contrary what I love in IL2 is this ability to be always the pilot( so flying bomber is less suicide)

If this simulator have this limitation, I would not play as a bomber pilot.

I hope this would NEVER change!

Edited January 19, 2018 by 1./TG1_Nil

[Pupo]

I agree they feel clumsy.

So much hard work modeling the gunner station and it is sad to see how it is difficult to control them,

but I found a solution:

 Bind "Turret: Take/Leave control" and "Turret: Nestle to Gun sight" and "reload" on the SAME buton (right mouse bouton)

so now it is much better.

Let me know if it helps

 

 

I like where your suggestion is going. Going to give it a try as soon as I'm back from vacation.

[LukeFF]

 

 

Moving to a gun position automatically gives control of the gun and you're looking down the sight.

 

The first half is actually already possible when using one of the commands to move directly to a specific gunner position (instead of having to cycle through each of them one-by-one). 

[Yogiflight]

 

 

The first half is actually already possible when using one of the commands to move directly to a specific gunner position (instead of having to cycle through each of them one-by-one).

Actually I am faster with circling through the posititons by pressing the button on top of my yoke, than with searching for the right key for the specific gunner position, I want to enter.

[Nil]

Well I would like to see Rekts suggestion instead, and, have AI gunners call attackers properly (6 high etc).

 

As it is, if I want to do evasive manoeuvres I do it as the pilot and leave the AI to gun.

I do not understand the interest of making this limitation knowing that you can already do that now. Nothing prevent you to do that, so why preventing others to not handle the plane while using turrets?

 

Personally, I love to handle my plane with my left hand, and aim with the gun with my right hand. 

 

However, I wish the AI gunners call attackers properly as you said, like the mighty B17 simulator...have you tried it? it is a pure gem.

[Nil]

Maybe a ' disengage aircraft control' button would suit my wish and keep yours.

You read my mind!

On B17 simulator, we control the guns with the joystick, but I find it more difficult and less precise than the mouse.

I guess it is a matter of taste.

[Avimimus]

For the Ju-52 (and WWI aircraft in general) we really need a separate control for raising and lowing the gun bar mounting.

 

...that said, I'd like to see more issues with aircraft motion translating into movement of the gun... i.e. physics modelling to make sighting more difficult and challenging... I find the gunner positions a bit too easy to use.

Edited January 24, 2018 by Avimimus

[SAG]

They are very clumsy indeed

[Yogiflight]

 

 

However, my top priority for improvement: Being able to manually raise or lower the horizontal bar used by the gunner in the Ju-52. This might not seem that important - but it'll matter a lot more for WWI aircraft which used these types of turrets. It is really annoying to aim downward over the side of the aircraft only to have the gun automatically move lower and thus reduce its field of fire downward! This should have its own control and not be automatic!

It is the same for the He111 H6, where the dorsal gunner was able to fire below the horizontal stabilizer IRL, in the game you can hardly fire horizontally.

[kestrel79]

If you have a gaming mouse (think mine is a Logitech 605?) you can bind all the gunner station keys to the custom buttons on the mouse. Makes switching turrets and aiming much easier having them all in your mouse hand.

[von_Michelstamm]

One immediate change I’d like to see is to eliminate the “switch sides” button and just make the secon gun at a position a different numbered firing position. We have 9 total, the 111 only uses 5, why not make it 7 (for the ventral and second belly gun, too)

[Yogiflight]

The difference is, changing position from the dorsal gunner to the ventral gunner, is from one gunner to another. The ventral gunner is there already and prepared for shooting. Changing from left to right waist gun, is the same gunner, who has to move to the other gun station and take control of the gun. For me this system makes it more simulaion, but I know most players want everything just as easy for them as possible, for them it is enough, when the aircrafts fly like they should.

[RedeyeStorm]

I like the current system as well. But that is just me. The only thing I would like if they checked out the gunners position in VR. Sometimes you clip through the plane (pe2 and IL2) in the 110 I have to physicly lean forward otherwise I get a weird jumping effect in the view. In the ju52 you need a roomscale setup because if you rotate the gun, even in nestled view, you have to physicly move with the gun otherwise you look one way and the gun points in another.

[LukeFF]

10 hours ago, von_Michelstamm said:

One immediate change I’d like to see is to eliminate the “switch sides” button and just make the secon gun at a position a different numbered firing position. We have 9 total, the 111 only uses 5, why not make it 7 (for the ventral and second belly gun, too)

 

The second gun position is already a different numbered firing position in the list of key commands. You can try it yourself in the He 111 H-6, which has six numbered positions at the moment:

1. Nose gunner
2. Top gunner
3. Rear ventral gunner
4. Front ventral gunner
5. Left side fuselage gunner
6. Right side fuselage gunner

Like I said, you can instantly jump to any those commands right now without needing to use the "switch sides" command.

[von_Michelstamm]

Interesting.

so is it redundant?

[LukeFF]

1 hour ago, von_Michelstamm said:

Interesting.

so is it redundant?

 

Kind of - it just depends if you want to use one command or the other. 

[von_Michelstamm]

Also... am I right in noticing that ‘take control of gunsight’ seems non-essential too, since jumping to a station automatically takes control, and that button really just releases control to look around the plane for sightseeing?

so the only one you really need is ‘nestle’, which just gives you different (better) view?

I wonder if one could just double bind nestle to all the gun stations (maybe with a delay) so you automatically go into the best firing mode?

 

[LukeFF]

5 hours ago, von_Michelstamm said:

Also... am I right in noticing that ‘take control of gunsight’ seems non-essential too, since jumping to a station automatically takes control, and that button really just releases control to look around the plane for sightseeing?

so the only one you really need is ‘nestle’, which just gives you different (better) view?

 

Yes, that's right. ? The "Nestle" command toggles the gunsight view on and off. 

Edited June 30, 2019 by LukeFF