GOA_ViperARG Posted January 12, 2018 Posted January 12, 2018 Hi dear fellas. Im Viper, and I´m an electronic engineer student in Argentina. I love digital electronics for medical equipment, measure equipment and control. I have a thrustmaster hotas flight with throttle but the potenciometers at the joystick broke. I want to replace the XYZ 40° pots with single, five or ten turn potenciometer. I think it is more realistic to use 5 turn 10Kohm pots plus I save the work of making a gear reductor. Is there any way of using the flaps as an axis instead of up and down buttons? Also I want to do it with the radiators with the sliding potenciometers so I can make a DIY wooden, aluminum front panel with safe toggle switch for dropping bombs and rockets and integrate all the stuff in there for a more fun way of flying the sim. If I can I will make a big post of making it for yourself.Hope people that likes to build stuff like it as well. Cheers!
curiousGamblerr Posted January 12, 2018 Posted January 12, 2018 (edited) My squadmate 19//SAG builds his own throttles and stuff, he might have some tips! Edited January 12, 2018 by 19//curiousGamblerr
Mitthrawnuruodo Posted January 12, 2018 Posted January 12, 2018 (edited) Making panels is quite fun. Do remember that Il-2 does not natively support many types of switches. Some aircraft functions can only be toggled on/off by the press of a button. Toggle switches only work properly if there is software that emulates a keystroke (this can get rather messy if the game state is not synchronized with the physical position of the switches). However, modifying joysticks is not easy. Usually, it is best to find sensors that closely match the originals because they have to cooperate with the electronics inside the stick. Edited January 12, 2018 by Mitthrawnuruodo
Sokol1 Posted January 12, 2018 Posted January 12, 2018 (edited) I have a thrustmaster hotas flight with throttle but the potenciometers at the joystick broke. I want to replace the XYZ 40° pots with single, five or ten turn potenciometer. I think it is more realistic to use 5 turn 10Kohm pots plus I save the work of making a gear reductor. If your "Thrustmaster HOTAS with pot" is HOTAS X/4 this model require more than pot to worth the job, require too a new USB controller, the actual is 'borrowed" from gamepad's and is too limited - low resolution/frequency. Potentiometer is not the best solution for joystick gimbal, due joystick gimbal limited movement ~20-25+20-25 degrees, joystick need specific type of potentiometer with limited "electrical angle" ~30 to 60 degrees. This type is not available in electronic stores, is made for industry. A multiturn pot there will only add a unnecessary complication in joystick gimbal and not result in improvements, keeping the usual problem of pot' - wear out and spikes. Multiturn pot is good for trim's - in games that allow trim on axes (limited support for this in Bo'X). "High-end" joysticks of today use contact less sensor instead pot, e.g. HALL sensor (Tm Warhog, T1600M, Saitek X-5X, MFG...) or "GMR" loke sensors ( VKB, VirPil, Baur, GVL 224, Slaw...). So don't try "reinvent the wheel", but use a new model already tested. But put a contactless sensor in cheap made plastic gimbal with play (HOTAS X) don't make much sense. Anyway this type of sensor is easy to use in DIY projects. I suggest you take a look in this topic: http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3899105/1 Same subject in il2sturmovik.ru forum: https://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/topic/4664-mmjoy2-besplatnaya-proshivka-i-soft-dlya-samodelnogo-k/ Is there any way of using the flaps as an axis instead of up and down buttons? Not all aircraft of Bo'X game has flaps that allow set any degrees of deployment for benefit of use a analog axis for control, some has flaps with defined positions (e.g. Stuka, Fw 190...) but the major issue is that game controls don't allow map flaps control in an axis, so this idea is not practical, unless your are thinking in other flight games, eg. FSX. Edited January 15, 2018 by Sokol1 1
GOA_ViperARG Posted January 15, 2018 Author Posted January 15, 2018 Thank you Sokol1 for the info, I aprecciate it. But I the pots can be simulated with rotary encoders and I2C/SPI potenciometers like Microchip MCP4017 all simulated from software. Potenciometers can also work as switches with op amps and transistors for those planes which you cant set an angle. Like the Stuka. About the electrical angle, Thrustmaster use 40 degree 10Kohm linear pots along with ADC input pin of the main MCU. If you try to calibrate with windows software and you select view raw data, you can see the decimal values on different axis from 0/255 - 0/1023. I gonna try this soon and see what It comes up. I will update it here. Hugs!!
Sokol1 Posted January 18, 2018 Posted January 18, 2018 (edited) 6127V1A180L.5 - Hall Effect Sensor, Position, 180 °, 4.5 V to 5.5 V, Pin, Cylinder Rotatable, 200 mV Bi-tech is bit expensive but very easy to use, for joystick gimbal is better use 60 - 90º for match gimbal movement. Not sure if HOTAS-X gimbal deserve one. I use one in Cougar TQS. BTW - Impressive cockpit, four throttles? GOA_Viper, Take a look in this DIY HALL sensor assembly: You can use the defective pot of HOTAS X as base for DIY HALL assembly: http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4098966/re-mmjoy-build-your-own-usb-controller#Post4098966 Joystick gimbal made with some DIY HALL assembly: If you have access to 3D printer, a good gimbal project, using CAM for center. http://www.gavca.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=24137#p173127 Edited January 18, 2018 by Sokol1
DarKcyde Posted January 18, 2018 Posted January 18, 2018 I'm sending you a photo to have an idea ... You have any more details on that cockpit? More pictures? Would love to see the collective. I've been wondering how to integrate throttle and collective into the same pit. Lots of creative stuff in that cockpit.
Marvel Posted January 19, 2018 Posted January 19, 2018 I guys, sorry if I meddle in the topic, but I have the same project of Viper. I made my own homebuilt joystick and for use all travel of pots I used a pair of gears for each potentiometer, a pinion for pot and a gear for joystick axis. I use a Bodnar card, the BU0836X. I built it like this because a member of an Italian forum of flight sim helped me for building. He had chosen this solution and I, having no experience of this kind, I did the same. Here the result: The joystick gimbal is a bit bulky, but I saw in internet gimbal joystick with small dimensions and no gears reduction for the pots (or more often Hall sensors), as described in this topic by Sokol. Now, I would like to rebuild the gimbal with smaller dimensions and use Hall sensors. In this case I read that the joystick range is approximately 20°/25° for each direction but with Hall sensor how can I calibrate the range? There is a software to manage this? Many thanks for all your help (Viper I hope you do not get angry if I get involved in your topic… ) Ciao! Marco
Sokol1 Posted January 19, 2018 Posted January 19, 2018 Thing is that straight gears have "backlash" between teeth, are complicated to assembly and this used in your project don't looks cheap. About potentiomters (pot) x contact less sensor: Joystick (and R/C transmiter) manufacturer's when use potentiometer (low cost/entry-level joystick models continue using pot because this pot cost $0.10 or less for then) don't use gears, but use "joystick pot". "Joystick pot" have their resistive trail limited to 30 ~60 degrees - called "electric angle" - instead the common 270/300 degrees of common pot available in electronic stores. This limited "electric angle" make easy match the gimbal movement, typically ~25 degrees for each side with pot "electric angle" and achieve the maximum resolution possible of joystick controller. E.g. 10 bits - 1024 "steeps" in this 50 degrees pot movement. But pot is based on a wiper sliding over this resistive trail, who wear out with use, or can have this reading disturbed by dirt accumulated over this trail. Why all joy soon or latter with pot will fail (noise/spikes). E.g. The "high-end" at time HOTAS Cougar was impaired by bad potentiometers. A honorable exception is CH stick - vintage products using vintage pot, an bit pot with metal case that can last several years - but this pot cost $10 - as replacement. Other is Microsoft Sidewinder's, that probable use Panasonic pot rated to 10M cycles, discontinued in 2003 several units continue working OK. Issue for DIY: "joystick pot" (with limited electric angle) simple is not available in electronic stores, seems made for industry only. But today - due their popularity in other industry segment, e.g. automotive - contact less position sensors (HALL sensor, Magnetoresistive, GMR...) cost less than pot used by CH or a good quality pot. T.16000M/Warthog/X-55/56 Melexis MLX90333 3D sensor cost - for consumer ~$6.44 (Mouser). Infineon TLE 5011 cost $5.83 (Mouser). Allegro A1324EUAT, Honewell SS495A1 cost ~$2. This sensors don't have physical contacts between parts, so no wear out like pot, angle movement detection is based on magnet field. Are used in X-52, X55, X-56, T.16000M, Warthog, VKB Gladiator/Gunfigher, VPC (VirPil) T50, BRD-D sticks and in MFG, BRD, Slaw, VKB rudder pedals, and in some axis of GVL224/Kanttori custom throttles. Sensor like Melexix MLX90333 - made for joystick use - can be programmed for match gimbal movement, e.g your custom gimbal move 50 degrees (25+25) you program this sensor to read 0-5V in 50 degrees. But Melexis are not option for DIY because this programming require a thousands dollar programmer equipment, besides use this sensor require a USB controller with digital input and compatible firmware. For now only MFG controller firmware - not properly available for DIY - is compatible with Melexis sensor. A "2D" version of Melexis is available in analog mode (EBay/Aliexpress) and can be use with any joystick controller - if work in 5v. A TLE5010/11 sensor is not programmable, but used with MMjoy2 firmware can be achieved ~11 bits resolution in ~50 degrees. What you need do in joystick gimbal is place a Neodimium magnet turning with gimbal axis, and position the sensor aligned with this magnet. But since your base/gimbal is almost ready, if gears backslash don't result in mechanical deadzone, keep the pot, just assure a easy way to replace then eventually and use quality brands - Spectrol, Alps, Bourns, Bi-Tech... But you want a compact base, go to contactless sensor, is cheap, relatively easy/practical to assembly. In the end you can achieve good result using (good) pot', but are less complicated/expensive way to achieve the same result.
Marvel Posted January 20, 2018 Posted January 20, 2018 Hi Sokol, wow, many thanks for all these informations! :biggrin: Thing is that straight gears have "backlash" between teeth, are complicated to assembly and this used in your project don't looks cheap. The gears have been given to me for free by the past Italian forum member.... But since your base/gimbal is almost ready, if gears backslash don't result in mechanical deadzone, keep the pot, just assure a easy way to replace then eventually and use quality brands - Spectrol, Alps, Bourns, Bi-Tech... Yes, the actual gimbal is almost ready and obviously I will use it for now, but in the future (not too much future... ), I would like to build one smallest, with centering cam, no gear and with Hall sensor. You suggested some very interesting ideas in this topic (reply #7). Working in the metal industry, I would build the gimbal in dural for a better duration, instead of 3D printing.... I read Helo used Bi-Tech 6127V1A180L.5 - Hall Effect Sensor, Position, 180 °, 4.5 V to 5.5 V, Pin, Cylinder Rotatable, 200 mV, for his joy and you say It is easy to use in DIY gimbal joystick. But, how I can have a approximately 40°/ 50° range (20+20 or 25+25), beginning from a 180° range? There is a software or a way to do this? This is currently my biggest unknown factor.... Many thanks for all! Ciao! Marco
Sokol1 Posted January 20, 2018 Posted January 20, 2018 I read Helo used Bi-Tech 6127V1A180L.5 - Hall Effect Sensor, Position, 180 °, 4.5 V to 5.5 V, Pin, Cylinder Rotatable, 200 mV, for his joy and you say It is easy to use in DIY gimbal joystick. But, how I can have a approximately 40°/ 50° range (20+20 or 25+25), beginning from a 180° range? There is a software or a way to do this? Is what I post after, this Bi-TECH 6127 has several sub-variants with 30 to 300 degrees of "electric angle". So don't pick the 180 degrees model, but the 60 degrees for use in joystick gimbal. Look at this part of code "A180L". The one I use in (Cougar) TQS was 60 degrees, hence the code: 6127V1A60L.5 http://s13.postimg.org/e6w9qwdrb/TQS_2.jpg
Marvel Posted January 21, 2018 Posted January 21, 2018 Hi Sokol, thanks for info. I looked for in internet and I found that the range of this kind of pot is from 15° to 360°, as on mouser.it web site on the search drop down menu: The range is quite wide, I think. It comprises 15-45-50-60-90-180-200-340-360 degrees of range with L.5 as linearity. I think 45° it should be fine for gimbal joystick (about 22,5 in each side), considering my joystick is about 55 cm long. 60° it should be fine for rudder pedals I designing now, the pedals have an angular deflection of 30 °. I just hope 45° is currently available.... Ciao! Marco
Marvel Posted January 22, 2018 Posted January 22, 2018 Hi Helo, my congratulations for your impressive work!! :o: :good: The gimbal joystick is very interesting (like everything else obviously! ). Have you used TTElectronics Hall sensor pot model 6127V1 for joystick axis? If yes wich model you used? Ciao! Marco
Marvel Posted January 23, 2018 Posted January 23, 2018 (edited) Hi Helo, thanks for info. Just few questions: what is the angle of Hall sensor potentiometer you used for the joystick? Have you used Hall sensor potentiometer series 6127 of TT Electronics? Many thanks! Ciao! Marco Edited January 23, 2018 by markino
VO101_MMaister Posted January 23, 2018 Posted January 23, 2018 Nice cockpit Helos, I especially like the gimbal. I guess I have seen something very similar before:)
Marvel Posted January 23, 2018 Posted January 23, 2018 Hi Helo, many thanks for the info! :) DIView calibrates any angle It was what I was looking for....so I can have a pot with, e.g. 180°, and calibrate it like it has 60° (or any other angle), right? Ciao! Marco
Sturmovnik_PL Posted January 23, 2018 Posted January 23, 2018 Hi dear fellas. Im Viper, and I´m an electronic engineer student in Argentina. I love digital electronics for medical equipment, measure equipment and control. I have a thrustmaster hotas flight with throttle but the potenciometers at the joystick broke. I want to replace the XYZ 40° pots with single, five or ten turn potenciometer. I think it is more realistic to use 5 turn 10Kohm pots plus I save the work of making a gear reductor. Is there any way of using the flaps as an axis instead of up and down buttons? Also I want to do it with the radiators with the sliding potenciometers so I can make a DIY wooden, aluminum front panel with safe toggle switch for dropping bombs and rockets and integrate all the stuff in there for a more fun way of flying the sim. If I can I will make a big post of making it for yourself. Hope people that likes to build stuff like it as well. Cheers! I recommend for you use Arduino with MCO ( MUST BE "Atmega32u4" ), and Joystick.h library, is very easy in use, than MMjoy. Link to library, and instruction http://www.instructables.com/id/Arduino-LeonardoMicro-as-Game-ControllerJoystick/
Sturmovnik_PL Posted January 23, 2018 Posted January 23, 2018 There is my button box, but on video I am speaking in polish, and i forget set focus on camera.
Sokol1 Posted January 23, 2018 Posted January 23, 2018 It was what I was looking for....so I can have a pot with, e.g. 180°, and calibrate it like it has 60° (or any other angle), right? Yes, but your are loosing resolution. A 180º pot is done for read 0 - 5v in 180º, if you turn then less the voltage variation will be less and so the resolution in controller ADC, the calibration process will define what is this maximum resolution for the now reduced voltage. Why joystick industry use special pot' with 30 - 60 degrees of "electric angle". Why Melexis sensor are the ideal (if not the cost of programmer) for DIY joystick use - you define in how many angle the 0-5v variation will occur. So get the pot (or sensor) in what the "electric angle" are equals or a bit more than your gimbal angle. I suggest read this document: http://www.hempstick.org/download/articles/OnResolution.pdf
Marvel Posted January 24, 2018 Posted January 24, 2018 Hi Sokol, thanks for info. Surely I will read the pdf you shared. Based on your experience, for a pot with 90° range reduced to 60°, do you think the lack in resolution is signifier? Ciao! Marco
Sokol1 Posted January 24, 2018 Posted January 24, 2018 If the USB controller used is 12 bits - 4.096 resolution points (e.g. BU0836A). 4096 / 90 * 60 = 2730 points, a bit more than 11 bits (2048) so are OK - you understand better this after ready Hempstick "On Resolution", more is better but are a practical limit. In any case avoid that resolution drop bellow 10 bits (1024 points) - at least for main axes: aileron, elevator, rudder. Some players report notice difference in control between 10 and 12 bits. But, if you have option to buy a sensor with "electric angle" more close of your gimbal angle movement, why buy one with more?
Marvel Posted January 25, 2018 Posted January 25, 2018 Hi Sokol, thanks for info! But, if you have option to buy a sensor with "electric angle" more close of your gimbal angle movement, why buy one with more? No, no, it was for my information only. I have in option to buy, a little at a time, several TT Electroncs pot of 6127 series: 45° for joystick (about 20°+20° each axis); 60° for rudder pedals (30°+30°) and 60° for throttles (power, propeller and mixture), for the moment. Ciao! Marco
Sokol1 Posted January 25, 2018 Posted January 25, 2018 (edited) I recommend for you use Arduino with MCO ( MUST BE "Atmega32u4" ), and Joystick.h library, is very easy in use, than MMjoy. Link to library, and instruction http://www.instructables.com/id/Arduino-LeonardoMicro-as-Game-ControllerJoystick/ Take a look in this page instructions but find flash MMjoy firmware is more easy/practical. The major plus of MMjoy2 firmware is their customization allowed without need re-write code. If I want use the Arduino for a simple rudder pedal with rudder axis control only I just set in MMJoySetup 1 axis and a custom name, e.g. "Rudder One" without have more 7 axes hanging in the air, like happens in non customizable codes/sketchs. If I want use pot or instead TLE501x sensor in digital mode in that axis, just need select the input type in drop down menu. Edited January 25, 2018 by Sokol1
Sokol1 Posted January 26, 2018 Posted January 26, 2018 (edited) Markino Take a look in AS5600 "12-bit Programmable Contactless Potentiometer", this sensor model allow program their "electric angle" - one time without specific I2C programmer, that is not too expensive. http://ams.com/eng/Products/Magnetic-Position-Sensors http://ams.com/eng/Products/Magnetic-Position-Sensors/Angle-Position-On-Axis/AS5600 https://www.mouser.com/ds/2/588/AS5600-SO_RD_ST_Operation_Manual-948143.pdf You can order a sample: http://ams.com/eng/Products/Magnetic-Position-Sensors/Angle-Position-On-Axis/AS5600 How to program: A trim wheel for flight games made with similar AMS sensor: http://robdobson.com/2017/04/flight-trim/ Edited January 26, 2018 by Sokol1
Marvel Posted January 28, 2018 Posted January 28, 2018 Hi Sokol, many thanks for all these informations! You are a mine of information!! Very interesting kind of sensor and cheapest, compared to TT Electronics sensors. Now I must to study well the contactless sensors and the best way to assemble they in the various hardware stuff. Many thanks for everything, mate!!!!! :) Ciao! Marco
Marvel Posted January 28, 2018 Posted January 28, 2018 Hi Sokol, I took a look at AS5600 sensors....but then how I connect it to the BU0836X? Ciao! Marco
Sokol1 Posted January 28, 2018 Posted January 28, 2018 By default they work in analog mode - 3 wires connection: +5V (or 3.3v), Gnd, Signal. Can use SPI mode too but BU0836 don't support this. Are guy's experimenting with this sensor for joystick, soon will post the result, await a bit. https://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/topic/4664-mmjoy2-besplatnaya-proshivka-i-soft-dlya-samodelnogo-k/page-33?do=findComment&comment=591503
Sokol1 Posted January 28, 2018 Posted January 28, 2018 (edited) Hi Sokol, Why BU 0836 would not support the way it works analogously No, what I say that BU don't support the SPI mode of AS5600 - a digital protocol, not that don't support AS5600 in analog mode. He can plug AS5600 in BU in analog mode (3 wires), like any other analog sensor (pot or contactless). Edited January 28, 2018 by Sokol1
Marvel Posted January 29, 2018 Posted January 29, 2018 By default they work in analog mode - 3 wires connection: +5V (or 3.3v), Gnd, Signal. Can use SPI mode too but BU0836 don't support this. Are guy's experimenting with this sensor for joystick, soon will post the result, await a bit. https://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/topic/4664-mmjoy2-besplatnaya-proshivka-i-soft-dlya-samodelnogo-k/page-33?do=findComment&comment=591503 Hi Sokol, Thanks! Unfortunately I can't see the pictures on the link because I haven't the permission. Ciao! Marco
Sokol1 Posted January 29, 2018 Posted January 29, 2018 Unfortunately I can't see the pictures on the link because I haven't the permission. You need login in that forum (il2..ru) - using the same password of this forum.
Marvel Posted January 29, 2018 Posted January 29, 2018 You need login in that forum (il2..ru) - using the same password of this forum. Ah...ok. Many thanks! Ciao! Marco
Helo Posted February 7, 2018 Posted February 7, 2018 No, what I say that BU don't support the SPI mode of AS5600 - a digital protocol, not that don't support AS5600 in analog mode. He can plug AS5600 in BU in analog mode (3 wires), like any other analog sensor (pot or contactless). Hi Sokol could you please advise me, I want to test the project with Aurdino and TLE 5011 what magnet would you recommend? well thank you
Sokol1 Posted February 7, 2018 Posted February 7, 2018 (edited) The "best" for this use is considered diametrical magnetized Neodimium magnet rings, in second in disk format. https://www.kjmagnetics.com/magdir.asp https://www.first4magnets.com/diametrically-magnetised-magnets-t177 https://www.alibaba.com/showroom/diametrically-magnetized-ring-magnets.html This TLE5010 assembled in PCB sold in China usually came with (disk) magnet. https://www.yoycart.com/Product/521365312829/ You find all ready to use in Taobao - but is PITA buy in thats place (a kind of Chinese eBay): https://world.taobao.com/item/520508841650.htm?spm=a312a.7700714.0.0.0kvtmH#detail Edited February 7, 2018 by Sokol1
Marvel Posted February 8, 2018 Posted February 8, 2018 Thanks Sokol, very useful for me too! Ciao! Marco
Marvel Posted February 8, 2018 Posted February 8, 2018 Markino Take a look in AS5600 "12-bit Programmable Contactless Potentiometer", this sensor model allow program their "electric angle" - one time without specific I2C programmer, that is not too expensive. http://ams.com/eng/Products/Magnetic-Position-Sensors http://ams.com/eng/Products/Magnetic-Position-Sensors/Angle-Position-On-Axis/AS5600 https://www.mouser.com/ds/2/588/AS5600-SO_RD_ST_Operation_Manual-948143.pdf You can order a sample: http://ams.com/eng/Products/Magnetic-Position-Sensors/Angle-Position-On-Axis/AS5600 How to program: A trim wheel for flight games made with similar AMS sensor: http://robdobson.com/2017/04/flight-trim/ Sokol, but the software I2C to program the sensor electric angle is supplied when I buy the sensor or it is supplied separately? Ciao! Marco
Sokol1 Posted February 8, 2018 Posted February 8, 2018 (edited) For what I understand the sensor can be programmed once (Option B: Programming in 3-wire mode) by close a jumper and moving the magnet from start to stop positions - what can be trick. "The industry-standard I²C interface supports simple user programming of non-volatile parameters without requiring a dedicated programmer." A I2C programmer plus software is available, not sure if is this: http://ams.com/eng/Support/Demoboards/Accessories/Programmer-and-Programming-Boards/AS5000-Programmer Edited February 8, 2018 by Sokol1
Marvel Posted February 9, 2018 Posted February 9, 2018 Hi Sokol, thanks for reply. I sent an emal to AMS for information request but without reply till now. Then I downloaded this software from the link you shared: AS5xxxxProgrammer_Setup_1v540 but I don't know if is the right one (is an evaluation version). I think that to program the sensor is needed a programming board, but they cost about $120 each....too expensive for my pockets... What do you think? I understood well the AMS informations about these sensors or not? Ciao! Marco
Sokol1 Posted February 9, 2018 Posted February 9, 2018 Get one or two - is cheep, and try program the angle with the option B, without use programmer/software. See option B there: https://youtu.be/Dwc4hFgNP5I?t=126
Marvel Posted February 9, 2018 Posted February 9, 2018 Yes, is right....I read again the description: "...An easy start and stop position programming in a so called “3 wire mode” without a programmer or digital interface is also implemented. The default range of the output is 0 to 360 degrees. The AS5600 can be applied to smaller range by programming a zero angle (start position) and a maximum angle (stop position)..." Sorry for my silly question.... Ciao! Marco
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