109G gunpods

[=X51=VC_]

Not seen much discussion on this topic or much use in game.

 

I tried G-2 with the gunpods last night and while they do make it feel like your ailerons are operating in custard I got some really sweet instant disintegration snapshots. I feel if the situation is e.g. one of those crazy furballs where if you dare go below 2,500m you're dead no matter what you do and you're forced to play super cautious BnZ, the ability to just delete people when given the tiniest firing window is worth the slight performance loss. Even then it's mainly agility that suffers but speed and E retention felt very OK. Would try it again, also want to strafe some trains if that map comes up.

 

What are your experiences and use cases?

Edited January 11, 2018 by VC_

[Luftschiff]

That custard is a solid deterrent, I'd say. Personally, I very rarely bring out the gunpods for the 109. If I do it's for strafing runs or bomber patrol duties - taking down a Peshka without them is a tricky proposition, but the Focke-Wulf is a clearly superior choice in both of those cases, however, so it's a rare event. There is certainly something to be said for the extra firepower in situations where agility is of marginal concern, but the 20/15 mm aren't enough to handle many ground targets, so my stints in the Luftwaffe tend to slew towards bombers and attackers.

[Herne]

I've tried wing cannons recently on berloga playing LW. I think I prefer to have them, my reasoning is that I don't feel I lose too much rate of roll, but what ever I hit tends to die in a single pass. As a VR user the classic sit on a high perch and boom n zoom, is not well suited for me.

[=X51=VC_]

That custard is a solid deterrent... There is certainly something to be said for the extra firepower in situations where agility is of marginal concern

That was sort of my point. I love getting into close fights with my 109s and the plane can handle itself 1v1 but a lot of the time committing to that kind of fight is suicide. If you're on strict BnZ you shouldn't need your agility and anyway it's crippled by control stiffening. When all you get is a last second kick of the rudder to put a short burst on a twisting target the extra shells really seem to count more than a bit of roll rate. Does mean though that you don't have a choice to dogfight if you want to.

[Willy__]

I dont mind the maneuverability loss, as I tend to keep strictly on BnZ, but I do mind the drag and the lower top speed that they cause, hence, I only take them if I know I'll be facing a lot of peshkas, otherwise the motorkanone must suffice. 

[Dakpilot]

In a lot of Russian literature about air combat on Eastern Front, the 20mm Gunpods  fitted to 109's seem to be considered quite a common thing,  certainly not rare, at least that is the impression left to me

 

Wonder if there are any records of how much actual operational use they had? ,

 

many German 'Ace' pilots I have read, saying they preferred not to have them, but there were a lot of normal German pilot's who did not write memoirs

 

Cheers, Dakpilot

[von-Luck]

The performance lost by these is less than ideal. Unless you are specifically big game hunting Peshkas then I don't think they are worth the performance loss. In ideal situations it's easy to see the pros as the firepower increase is considerable. That said you often find yourself in far from ideal situations where every little bit helps. The extra climb, speed, and lower wing loading really matters when you are trying to escape those sticky situations.

 

von Luck

Edited January 11, 2018 by von-Luck

[Ropalcz]

If you want to literally shred everything on one flyby, take them.

 

If you want to have a chance to survive when you get into problems, let them on the ground.

[MarcoPegase44]

Hello,

The Gunpods to reinforce the armaments of the BF 109 were motivated during the summer of 1942, before Stalingrad, to more effectively intercept the IL2 which were tough for the BF19 with standard weapons, this by some squadron leaders to meet the demand of the Wehrmacht who asked for better air support.

That's what I read in "Black Cross and Red Star"

[=X51=VC_]

In a lot of Russian literature about air combat on Eastern Front, the 20mm Gunpods  fitted to 109's seem to be considered quite a common thing,  certainly not rare, at least that is the impression left to me

 

Wonder if there are any records of how much actual operational use they had? ,

 

many German 'Ace' pilots I have read, saying they preferred not to have them, but there were a lot of normal German pilot's who did not write memoirs

 

Cheers, Dakpilot

 

I would be curious too. It would seem at least from the available photographs that non-German users of the 109 were quite fond of them also.

[von-Luck]

The average pilot in WWII was about as bad at flying as the average newcomer to IL-2. I would be willing to wager I have more simulated combat experience than 99% of the pilots in WWII - especially if you consider my thousands of hours are mostly spent in bloody dog fights. I'm sure the addition of extra guns held the same glamorous appeal then as it does now - especially to new pilots. With that taken into consideration and the context of your average pilot in WWII plus the very different nature of their typical engagement. Yes I'm confident you will find testimony of pilots whom liked them and commanders who wanted them for their squadrons.

 

The differences between actual WWII flying and this SIM are vast and not least of which is an exponentially more talented pool of pilots whom are willing to fly at the edge of an aircrafts ability. This means the setting in say WoL is far more competitive and dangerous so taking additional armament has a more elevated risk than in real life.

 

von Luck

[E69_geramos109]

for me is just an option to fly at very hight alt when even with the lose of performance you are faster and to attack targets below

[Max_Damage]

In a lot of Russian literature about air combat on Eastern Front, the 20mm Gunpods  fitted to 109's seem to be considered quite a common thing,  certainly not rare, at least that is the impression left to me

 

Wonder if there are any records of how much actual operational use they had? ,

 

many German 'Ace' pilots I have read, saying they preferred not to have them, but there were a lot of normal German pilot's who did not write memoirs

 

Cheers, Dakpilot

They have made their appearance once but they proved to be very disadvantageous in fighter combat. The planes took losses and the guns were never used again for the most part.

[LukeFF]

They have made their appearance once but they proved to be very disadvantageous in fighter combat. The planes took losses and the guns were never used again for the most part.

 

Say what? Where in the world did you pull that from?

[MeoW.Scharfi]

The good thing with gunpods on the Bf 109 is the drag. You don't become too fast on your "victim", so you won't get too stiff for the deflection shots or at least you can still correct your aim while deflection shooting. But I usually don't fly with gunpods even if I had 9 Kills in a flight with them once(+1 maneuver kill)

 

By the way in real life gunpods jammed in high G maneuvers.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STFdRrWBW2w#t=23s

Edited January 12, 2018 by MeoW.Scharfi

[Nightrise]

See little point in them. All that drag for an increase in firepower i could get by flying a 190. 

[Blackhawk_FR]

 

 

The good thing with gunpods on the Bf 109 is the drag. You don't become too fast on your "victim"

 

 

For me gunpods feel more like => Heavier plane => heavier to maneuver whatever the speed. So the lack of speed you get in a dive because of the drag is replace by the lack of maneuverability.

 

Anyway everybody have their own feeling about flying with gun pods. 

 

The only fact is you increase your firepower while decreasing almost everything on the other side (speed, climb rate, turn rate, ...). So against bombers no problems, but against fighters, you have to compensate by using your head more than your stick, in some kind of Hartmann way (the famous rule: See, decide, attack, run, and do it again). If you manage correctly your SA and trajectory, and get in a good firing position... The job is already done with the 3xMG151 

[CrazyDuck]

Do gunpods on 109 have the same ammo belting as motorcannon?

[Finkeren]

From a cursory glance at photos in my books about the 109, it seems that the gun pods only really faded from use from 1944, when use of the Mk 108 became commonplace.

 

When evaluating their use in real life, we have to remember, that the far majority of all air combat in WW2 didn't involve single aircraft fighting one another but squads of aircraft fighting as a unit. When fighting as a unit, firepower becomes massively more important than in a 1-on-1 situation (the same goes for ground combat) while maneuverability becomes less of an issue. The worst problem about the gun pods was probably the speed loss.

[CrazyDuck]

When evaluating their use in real life, we have to remember, that the far majority of all air combat in WW2 didn't involve single aircraft fighting one another but squads of aircraft fighting as a unit. When fighting as a unit, firepower becomes massively more important than in a 1-on-1 situation (the same goes for ground combat) while maneuverability becomes less of an issue.

 

This can't be stressed enough. Speed + Firepower will beat maneouverability any time except in certain 1v1 situations. This is precisely what makes a group of cooperating 190s so deadly vs virtually any opponent, despite the Wurger not really shining in 1v1 dogfighting.

[przybysz86]

if you ask me pods are great if you fly in at least a pair and can do mutual support. In that case cooperation and ability to get rid of enemy quick is more important than plane's performance 1v1.

For solo flights I rarely take them unless I know reds are going heavy and I know there will be bombers to hunt.

[=X51=VC_]

Yeah, I was solo initially but with others later on and I did feel a couple of times I could have cleared a friendly 6 faster with gunpods. But the other guys had no problem clearing my 6 without them. It might be I need to improve my aim then it won't feel like such a night and day difference. I have had short burst kills with just the nose guns but they are quite rare.

 

It might also be psychological. I hate it when I damage someone and they just loop around straight back at me like they don't care. I usually can't resist going for pass after pass, which is now harder as they're aware of me, and the longer I don't get them the more frustrated and sucked into the fight I get. Gunpods break the cycle before it starts because I either just get them outright or I force discipline by reminding myself my plane isn't set up for a dogfight.

 

The 109 "clean" is an excellent dogfighter which is one of the reasons I enjoy flying it but it also makes it tempting to dogfight when I shouldn't. That's why I said this was a specific situation where there was a big ongoing death-ball. Flying "clean" made it very hard to score from cautious passes and more tempting to join in the melee, which was guaranteed death sooner or later regardless of having that extra bit of performance.

 

I'll probably still fly without gunpods most of the time and see if I can improve my tactics, aim and discipline instead. But I do like them after hesitating initially due to the perception you shouldn't take them.

 

Anyway, isn't the speed loss only ~15km/h? That hardly seems a big issue.

Edited January 12, 2018 by VC_

[Finkeren]

Anyway, isn't the speed loss only ~15km/h? That hardly seems a big issue.

 

Big issue? No. An issue? Yes.

 

As mentioned earlier, in a squad vs. squad situation, firepower and speed are the two most important technological factors. Trading speed for firepower might make sense for a relatively lightly armed aircraft like the Bf 109, where a squad of already well-armed Fw 190s would most likely prefer the extra speed to having the extra firepower of the 4x MG 151 underwing pods.

[A_radek]

I agree and this translates well to the virtual combat arena as well. I remember participating in some squad vs squad tournaments back in the '46' days. At one point we gave the yak 3 a go and were absolutely butchered by the opponents 190's. I found the yak 3 untouchable in a 1 on 1 against the 190 back then. Hoping the p-39 will have the same quality.

Though flying mostly alone I personally still prefer speed and guns over agility. Perhaps It's just me being a lousy dogfighter but with the la-5 or 190 I can attack a whole squad of 109's or yaks and before they get their thing together often get away with it, speed ensures that. And big guns increase my chances of doing crucial damage on that single pass.



 

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

Do gunpods on 109 have the same ammo belting as motorcannon?

Nope. IIRC

Motorcannon = HE AP HE

gunpods = HE AP

[przybysz86]

one more thing - if you take pods motorkanone shoots together with MGs using main trigger and pods are under 2nd

[LLv24_Zami]

For example Finnish ace Kyösti Karhila chose to keep the gunpods in his G6. He liked the firepower and didn't consider the performance loss to be too significant.

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

Talking about gunpods, do you think we could get  MK 108 gunpods for the G-6 or is that configuration a later one more suited for the G-14 or K-4 in Bodenplatte?

[Finkeren]

Talking about gunpods, do you think we could get MK 108 gunpods for the G-6 or is that configuration a later one more suited for the G-14 or K-4 in Bodenplatte?

I’m not really sure it’s suited for anything. Wasn’t it purely experimental?

[Ropalcz]

I’m not really sure it’s suited for anything. Wasn’t it purely experimental?

 

MK 108 gunpods were used on G-6N I think.

 

Edit: Not sure if experimental, but definitely not common

Edited January 13, 2018 by Ropalcz

[CrazyDuck]

Nope. IIRC

Motorcannon = HE AP HE

gunpods = HE AP

 

Thanks! Any idea of the MinenGeschoss percentage in each of these? I'd assume higher percentage in the gondolas.

[Kurfurst]

I’m not really sure it’s suited for anything. Wasn’t it purely experimental?

 

Used to believe they were experimental, however there is even a service manual for the MK 108 gondie G-6/U4 from June/July 1944. So I would say limited service, but not something you would expect in 1943...

[Mac_Messer]

Yes sir, for hunting IL2s, at least three of them even for the worst gunman.

 

That custard is a solid deterrent, I'd say. Personally, I very rarely bring out the gunpods for the 109. If I do it's for strafing runs or bomber patrol duties - taking down a Peshka without them is a tricky proposition, but the Focke-Wulf is a clearly superior choice in both of those cases, however, so it's a rare event. There is certainly something to be said for the extra firepower in situations where agility is of marginal concern, but the 20/15 mm aren't enough to handle many ground targets, so my stints in the Luftwaffe tend to slew towards bombers and attackers.

In reality you fly with what you have. No "I don`t like gunpods so I take FW190".

[Cybermat47]

They work well with a teammate. On one occasion, I zoom climbed to a stall with a bandit on my six. A fellow FFS member then came in with gunpods and shredded him while he was stuck in the stall.

 

If you’re solo, I suggest going after unescorted bombers and ground attackers only. Booming and zooming a lone fighter could also be very effective, but also potentially disastrous if you miss. Hit and runs against airfields would be suicidal with that speed loss.

 

I might experiment using gunpod 109s as trainbusters. I imagine they’d be quite successful with escort, or if there were no enemy fighters in the area

[przybysz86]

Thanks! Any idea of the MinenGeschoss percentage in each of these? I'd assume higher percentage in the gondolas.

afaik in game now all HE are m-shells - at least they all behaved the same in my tests