Stuka on the east front

[Fifi]

Hi,

 

Currently reading Hans Rudel story (by himself), the best JU87 pilot ever, i'm quite surprised by the Stuka efficacity he describe on the Est front.

Indeed on the Western front, Stukas were known like a kind of nice flying target for English/Americans fighters pilots, and the JU87 quickly became obsolete. But it seems it was an other story on the Est front...

Reading Hans Rudel, they didn't really fear Russan fighters, even when in small formations, and he even managed to bring down some Lagg 5!!   (not by the gunner)

Many times, he mention Russians fighters were pretty bad shooters, and Russians bombers pretty bad droppers...

They were attacked many times by PE2, airfield even non AA protected because of too fast mouving front, and Russians missed and dropped their bombs all around but on the targets...

In the meantime, Rudel Stukas were able to drop bombs precisely at the meter on tanks (he mention an airfield attack by Russians tanks he incredibly stopped to the last bomb in supply!) and after Stalingrad battle when he tested the 37mm gunpods, Stukas could be precise up to 20 centimeters on tanks armour!

It seems the only real thing Stukas pilots feared on Est front, was in fact Russian AA...and the lack of supply and fuel.

 

Beside the fact Rudel was without a doubt an awesome pilot, mastering all Stuka possibilties, i'm a bit sceptic knowing he was also a convinced Nazi (up to the last years in Argentina)...isn't it all this sounding like a bit of propaganda? 

 

Anyway, i'm impressed by the Stuka reliability and strenght he mention. They could fly even with missing parts and full of AA holes. Even with almost dying engine!

Even though JU87 was slow, he mention a nice maneuvrability when out of bombs load. He could manage loops quite easily...

Will BOS reflect the challenge?

 

[Mogster]

During the later stages of the Continuation War with Russia the Finns were often under heavy air attack by ILs and PE2s. By reports from veterans the air attacks were so inaccurate that they came to feel almost safe in their trenches. That seems to back up what Rudel's saying.

 

I think generally in WW2 level aerial bombing was extremely inaccurate. Dive bombing like Rudel's and low level bombing units with special training could do better but in Europe they were unusual. You look at the BOB and really the Germans couldn't hit anything which made the whole campaign much less effective. Britain and the US changed to area bombing because they couldn't reliably get bombs within miles of the target from altitude.

[79_vRAF_Friendly_flyer]

Good point about WWII accuracy!

 

As far as I know (and I may be wrong), dive bombing was the only way to deliver pin-point accuracy back then. It was all the rage during the pre- and early war years, but I guess the high skills needed by the crew combined with the vulnerability of the planes designed to function in that role made general level bombing a more viable solution in the long run.

 

On the Allied side I believe the Vultee Vengeance filled a similar role with the Australian air force, and quite successfully too.

[Fifi]

Stukas in good hands could be incredibly accurate, from Rudel writing.

Himself, more than 2000 ground targets destroyed (with more than 500 tanks!) one battleship (!) two heavy cruisers, one destroyer, and 9 aerial victories...

Staline himself promised a reward for Rudel's head! 

But Est front was certainly quite different of Western front. I don't think Hartmann would have downed 300 planes against the English...without any wound or any critical plane damage.

 

Could BOS future career could reflect the Russian bad shooting too? 

[Bando]

Well, if I see the inaccuracy of the rockets. I'd say they're pretty much on par 

 

The real stories always gives a chill, don't they?

 

Anxiously waiting for what tomorrow brings.

 

Big map, IL2, Stuka.........?

[Emgy]

But Est front was certainly quite different of Western front. I don't think Hartmann would have downed 300 planes against the English...without any wound or any critical plane damage.

Fewer targets on all sides, on the west front. Airacobra would not have been the top scoring US fighter if it had been used in the west front instead of the east .

[Fifi]

Fewer targets on all sides, on the west front. 

 

Not exactely during BOB, Overlord and further on....

Counting US bombers UK bombers + fighters escorts, allies brought up thousands of potential targets! 

On many testimonies, it always appear that Estern victories were easier. Even for Galland (but he could have said this for other personal matter)

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 Rudel was extremely lucky to get over his early problems with flying and getting the touch to mastering his plane. He was propably not very liked even among his own ranks, but no-one can deny his achievements. Flying an "underwhelming"  Stuka until the end of WW2 is a feature not many did nor survived. Shame that some of his medals, flight diary and other stuff were stolen in the US POW camp by the guards. Even if you filter his text heavily it pretty much goes in line with what I've read. VVS pilots were not the best shooters in the world and started firing way too far out giving themselves away. Sure they got better during war but the "average artyom" was far from Pokryshkin or Golubev.

 

 Regarding the P39. Finns called it the "Rocking chair" as it was not very stable if was firing more than only a few rounds and the accuracy of the 37mm gun left a lot to desire for. Of all the VVS fighters Finns considered the Yak-9 most challenging and Hurricane/P39 the least. La-5F/FN was somewhere in between. 

[LukeFF]

The thing with the Stuka is that, as long as the Luftwaffe controlled the skies, the plane could thrive. It was when they didn't (e..g., Battle of Britain) that it suffered. It was really no different in the Pacific. Val pilots were very, very good at the beginning of the war, but it wasn't long before they started being shot down in droves.

 

As for accuracy with dive bombing, look no farther than Midway. The B-17s there couldn't hit anything, but I think those SBDs did alright.

[SimFreak]

Given that we have a lot of practice and redue ability, those slow targets will not last.

[Fifi]

Given that we have a lot of practice and redue ability, those slow targets will not last.

 

Unless they fly properly and do not get dumb gunners...

[Mogster]

 

As for accuracy with dive bombing, look no farther than Midway. The B-17s there couldn't hit anything, but I think those SBDs did alright.

Didn't the B17s attack their own ships at one point?

[AX2]

Some time ago I was looking for information about the Henschel Hs 123  in russians websites , then I found info about Stuka on the Russian front.

 

The biggest problem for the Stukas, was not the fighters, the main problem was the AAA, In the course of the war on the Russian front The Stuka was forced  to make very close air support and fly very low, , strafing and make attacks like an IL2,  The Stuka not have the armor to attack low in close air support  missions.

The Rusian antiaircraft weapons  Shotdown and damaged  the 70% of the Stukas,  faster than the supply of spare parts.

Often a simple damage,  could not be repaired for lack of spare parts. 

Edited December 27, 2013 by Mustang

[Fifi]

 

Some time ago I was looking for information about the Henschel Hs 123  in russians websites , then I found info about Stuka on the Russian front.

 

The biggest problem for the Stukas, was not the fighters, the main problem was the AAA, In the course of the war on the Russian front The Stuka was forced  to make very close air support and fly very low, , strafing and make attacks like an IL2,  The Stuka not have the armor to attack low in close air support  missions.

The Rusian antiaircraft weapons  Shotdown and damaged  the 70% of the Stukas,  faster than the supply of spare parts.

Often a simple damage,  could not be repaired for lack of spare parts. 

 

 

Yes, it match to Rudel's writing.

They often flew more than 10 missions per day (up to 17!), and it seems 80% of time they didn't meet/never saw their own fighter escort!

Stukas looses due to Russian fighters were very low even without escorts, and Rudel himself was shot down only once, because he mixed up ennemy fighters to friendly fighters!....and ran through a whole Ivan squad alone...had to land (so not even blew up in the air) and walk back home airfield. This was way after Stalingrad, when they were retreating to Germany...

Suddent bad weather with fog or snow, making Stukas flying very low at the close proximity of AA, was probably more feared by Rudel's Stukas than Ivan fighters!

[Fifi]

On side note for "little history", it was pretty common they flew with 4 guys in the Stuka!    ...when a Stuka had to emergency land after an AA bad hit, an other was landing beside (when possible)  and saved the crew from Ivan's hands.

Once, it played a bad song to Rudel himself...after landing to save a crew, Rudel's Stuka was deeply stuck in the mud...and again they had to come back walking...through ennemy lines!

This guy story is quite stunning. A shame he was so...nazi.

[[JG2]R7_Blackadder]

I think you should have known the man to weight "how much nazi" he was and why, or in what measure. There are always degrees of belief.

[AX2]

The Luftwaffe had great pilots, the vast majority were not Nazis, just fought. another BIG, stupid  and wrong war, as many soldiers do today.

About "the other story of Rudel"

Rudel was repudiated many times by other pilots of the Luftwaffe and often called a liar by his comrades.

Nobody knows the exact truth...

[Fifi]

 

After the war, Rudel for a time moved to South America where he became a close friend and confidante of the Argentinian president Juan Perón, and Paraguay's dictator and Third Reich admirerAlfredo Stroessner. Although missing one leg, he remained an active sportsman, playing tennis, skiing, and even climbing the highest peak in the Americas, Aconcagua (6,962 meters or 22,841 feet). He also ascended the fifth highest volcano on Earth three times, the Llullay-Yacu in the Argentine Andes (6,739 meters or 22,109 feet). During his stay he became acquainted with notorious Nazi concentration camp doctor and war criminal Josef Mengele.^[21]

Rudel returned to West Germany in 1953 and became a leading member of the nationalist political party, the German Reich Party (Deutsche Reichspartei). Prior to his return to Germany, he published a war diary entitled Trotzdem ("Nevertheless" or "In Spite of Everything") in Buenos Aires in November 1949 which was published by the Dürer-Verlag in Argentina. Discussion ensued in Germany on Rudel being allowed to publish the book because he was a known Nazi. In the book, he supported National Socialist policy. This book was later re-edited and published in the United States as the Cold War intensified as a book of memoirs called Stuka Pilot^[22] that supported the German invasion of the Soviet Union.

 

Enough for me 

[[JG2]R7_Blackadder]

I guess i'd have to read the book, but it's a matter of opinions right ?

[Pierre64]

I think you should have known the man to weight "how much nazi" he was and why, or in what measure.

How much? Always too much!

Why? I don't know good reasons to be a nazi,.

In what measure? Is it possible to be a nazi in a "reasonable" measure?

[Fifi]

Nah...it's going to derail again on nazism...  please no!

It's about Stukas on Est front only, and i'm sorry to have started bad thing about this pilot. Forget it.

[[JG2]R7_Blackadder]

I just don't see it that simple. Anyway i'm not sympathizer and i'd be glad to go back on Stukas

[CreepiJim]

Every war has its heroes and aces. And I guess we can all agree that some of them were pretty good at what they did regardless of their ideology.

 

In case of WW2 the Axis and Allies had great warriors with innovative tactics and solutions to new problems in the changing war. I doubt this is a result of their ideology or political orientation. Rudel was a pioneer for close air support directly resulting in the A-10. The same is true for Wernher von Braun and the Apollo program.

[Pierre64]

You are right, Fifi and Blackadder,

To forgive me and coming back to the subject of this thread, let me show you this file found in the swf.gtp folder :

 

&id=ju87d3_bk37
&name=2 x 37mm 3.7cm BK gun pods
&description=2 gun pods with 3.7cm BK guns
Ammo: 6 of 37mm rounds (High Explosive or Armour Piercing)
Projectile weight: 41 g (AP) and 55 g (HE)
Muzzle velocity: 1146 m/s
Guns weight: 295 kg
Ammo weight: 10 kg
Pods weight: 190 kg
Rate of fire: 160 rpm
Total additional weight of weapon modification: 850 kg

Edited December 27, 2013 by Pierre64

[CreepiJim]

Pierre, my friend, you just made my day....could be the "Panzerjagdkommando Weiss" variant of the D-3 with the first BK 37 pods.

 

I love the Ju-87, this is the plane you will see me flying and dying in....and more so with Bk37  

Edited December 27, 2013 by III./StG2_Blechbohrer

[Pierre64]

Many more to discover. As far as Ju 87 D-3 is concerned, what about WB 81B gun pods? Additional armour plates? Sirens? And SC 1800 "Satan"? (SC 1800 on a Ju 87 D-3??)

[CreepiJim]

Stop it Pierre....the waiting for the Stuka test flight is enough torture :D

[Pierre64]

[AX2]

Also the Lagg 3 has one 37mm.

 

The 37mm cannons were firing synchronously in the Stuka.

 

The 37mm cannons in the Il2 fired asynchronously never achieved good accuracy. (And get many pilots complains )

So the 37mm of Stuka were really effective.

 

Maybe there are mistakes in the translation.

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/1191-bzt-37-mm-ns-37-mm-performance-il2-gun-pods-test-repots/

 

.

[=RvE=Windmills]

You are right, Fifi and Blackadder,

To forgive me and coming back to the subject of this thread, let me show you this file found in the swf.gtp folder :

 

&id=ju87d3_bk37

&name=2 x 37mm 3.7cm BK gun pods

&description=2 gun pods with 3.7cm BK guns

Ammo: 6 of 37mm rounds (High Explosive or Armour Piercing)

Projectile weight: 41 g (AP) and 55 g (HE)

Muzzle velocity: 1146 m/s

Guns weight: 295 kg

Ammo weight: 10 kg

Pods weight: 190 kg

Rate of fire: 160 rpm

Total additional weight of weapon modification: 850 kg

 

That's a really nice suprise, didn't expect this to be there until some later expansion. Gives the Stuka much more versatility then it would've had with just bombs.

 

If they will actually have this ingame that is.

[Fifi]

Something bothering me...according again to Rudel book, he said he was among the first to test those 37mm gunpods on Stuka... but it was after the BoS!...

And his Stukas tank killer squad didn't take place at BoS, but for Kourks battle.

So that's a bit strange we'll get 37mm gunpods for BoS! (doesn't mean i don't want them, but...)

[Fifi]

After quick search, first test flight of Stuka Kanonenvogel (37mm gunpod) was the 31 January 1943 (to Rudel request), and only in April 1943 the first production were delivred to front units...

[[JG2]R7_Blackadder]

Third battle of Kharkov ?

 

P.s.

Nice find Pierre!

[Fifi]

Third battle of Karkhov was from middle February to middle March, so it's just after...

[CreepiJim]

31 Jan 1943 would be within the Battle of Stalingrad timeframe if I am not mistaken (early February)?

 

I don't think the WB 81B would make much sense if there are no infantry positions to shoot at. Could be a nice ground attack mission though. Not sure what the engine can handle.

[Fifi]

31 Jan 1943 would be within the Battle of Stalingrad timeframe if I am not mistaken (early February)?

 

 

Yes, but only one or two models at that time for testing purpose.

First in units seems to took place in April 43. Few month before Kourks battle.

In Rudel's chapter about Stalingrad, no one Stuka 37mm mentioned.

 

On other side note, in this chapter he is saying Ivans fighters were always defending  upon the Russians lines. Almost never flying upon German side of the city!

So the Stukas were quite safe at this time.

Edited December 28, 2013 by Fifi

[CreepiJim]

Does it have to be a series model to make it into the game? I am not sure how the developers handle such things, I wouldn't mind Bk37 at that stage, to be honest.

 

It all depends on how they will make the unlock system work. It sure does open up new possibilities and with only 12 rounds (6 shots) you are not much of a threat anyways. Later they had 12 rounds per gun as far as I can tell from the information I could dig up.

 

Interestingly, information about WW2 planes is hard to come by that is proven and true.

[Fifi]

Forgot to add, according to the Stuka Kanonenvogel master ace, he could destroy only 4 tanks before running out of ammos.

Plenty times, he left the tanks there, came back home to reload, and re-flyed over the area to try to find them again.

On the Est front, they never were far away from action. Often only 40Km.

Doing so, if i recall well, his best daily score was 12 tanks!

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 FiFi, there is a book about Waffen-SS troops in Eastern Front. Focuses on their combat merits and difficulties rather than stamping them evil. Find book by Jonathan Trigg called Hitler's Vikings - The history of the Scandinavian Waffen-SS: The Legions, the SS-Wiking and the SS-Nordland. Published in English by The History Press. Really worth reading.

 

I use the book as a loophole how Rudel managed to get so many kills. In the book was described an incident of a Waffen-SS tank commander setting up an ambush with Panther's under his command to the advancing Russian forces 1944. He let the scouting tanks to pass not to alert the main force coming behind and engaged when they arrived. Result: Zero lost Panthers and 109 destroyed T-34's left on the battle field. Why? Because they had no frigging radios on the T34's and the Panther's 75mm gun popped them open like tincans. So I bet Rudel had success because before the tank crews even realised what was going on he had been able to take out a few already. Does not help if one tank has radio and the rest do not

[[JG2]R7_Blackadder]

I read this Radio thing all over different books but i really never realized how could be done. You can produce 100 T34s a day but you are unable to put a damn radio into each one ?

I would have understood that in the first months of Barbarossa...but late in the war with help from US and GB ? Always looked strange to me.

 

However on the Stukas, I was thinking about the gameplay reading the thread here and i was wondering if we have any hints on what to expect out of the campaign and SP missions. You know coordination and such outside the means of self-support like on CloD over TF forums. Stukas bring up a good example for the question.