How to outdive a Yak with a 109

[=X51=VC_]

Yup, I followed recommendations and did a very successful escape the other day. 2v1 in blue favour went south and I decided I didn't want to 1v1 the guy (he looked like he really knew what he was doing) but despite the fact I was almost on the deck I took a shot to force a break, dived gently in the opposite direction, climb at 450km/h and trimmed to hold the attitude... never saw the guy again.

 

I'm trying to remember to use trim more, I've mapped it somewhere more convenient now than the Shift+whatever. I usually set to 0 for combat, is that right? The 109 has issues with high speed turns so I was wondering if it's worth setting negative (nose up) trim to help with this, but even with 0 I am pushing down quite hard to hold a dive past 700km/h. Do you adjust the trim constantly while diving and in combat?

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Do you adjust the trim constantly while diving and in combat?

Yes.

[JG27*Kornezov]

VC_

It looks like this thread served its purpose. I am happy you made a successful extension. Regarding your question.

 

-Negative trim is used when you want more acceleration and more speed. So it is in the first and medium stage of the dive.

-Positive trim is used when you want more drag and more elevator authority. So it is when you are already at high speed and you do not want to accelerate anymore, for fear to hit the ground.

If you are too fast in nose low attitude the elevator authority alone will not be enough to pull up.

 

So it is always a trade off, if you are in very high speed and in a shallow dive, you can keep the negative trim to keep the speed high.

However if you are in nose low attitude if you are trimmed down you may hit the ground as the elevator alone becomes unresponsive at 600 km/h.

According to what I remember from actual piloting records you trim in a steep dive to a degree that you need a little push on the stick to keep the orientation, in that way you know you are trimmed correctly to pull up.

 

 

 

[=X51=VC_]

OK yes, the thread has served its purpose indeed and I've also derailed it, but one more question. When you say you adjust trim in combat, how often? I'm wondering because in the 109 at high speed it can be nearly impossible to hit a deflection shot because the elevators don't respond. Do you actively use the trim in addition to the elevator to pull up to aim in situations like this?

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Trim is always adjusted with forsesight as airspeed varies. If you dive on an enemy knowing you have to pull hard for a deflection shot you'd not trim it nose heavy all the way but so that it's slightly tailheavy allowing for a quicker pullout. Different story when entering a long dive to the deck where you'd want to adjust your trim before entering the dive for high speed.

 

Basicly trim should always be adjusted for every situation in advance so you can focus your attention entirely on other things. Situational awareness and knowing the aircraft is key to sucesfully managing trim in combat.

[JG27*Kornezov]

VS. It is unrealistic to change the trim all the time. It is unrealistic to be perfectly trimmed and to adjust the trim in a knife fight. You need to have your best preset dogfight trim.
For a fight something between -60 and 0
There are 2 best 109 dog-fighters for which I have information:
Mr X uses -60 according to what I saw in his videos with moderate use of flaps.

DavidRed uses 0 according to his explanations (but they concern the old FM) but no flaps. (maybe it is equivalent to -37 in the new FM but I do not know for sure)
So there are different working combinations as grand-masters differ in their use.

However if you use above 0 at low speed you will loose energy very fast. Above 0 is for high speeds to get the max performance instantaneous turn, it is a little bit counter-intuitive.

Also my approach is different, instead of trimming re-trimming constantly I just have a preset of power setting and trim. Just make those settings and I let the plane stabilize itself.
 

Otherwise it will be a constant work with the controls. I prefer to spend my attention looking around than spending on controlling the plane.
If any of you have other data let me know. That is only for 109.



 

Edited January 28, 2018 by JG27_Kornezov

[=X51=VC_]

Right, next time I'm in a 109 I'll check what those % correspond to on the cockpit indicator (I usually keep the HUD off) and play around see what feels good to me. Thanks all!

[rolikiraly]

VS. It is unrealistic to change the trim all the time. It is unrealistic to be perfectly trimmed and to adjust the trim in a knife fight. You need to have your best preset dogfight trim.

For a fight something between -60 and 0

There are 2 best 109 dog-fighters for which I have information:

Mr X uses -60 according to what I saw in his videos with moderate use of flaps.

DavidRed uses 0 according to his explanations (but they concern the old FM) but no flaps. (maybe it is equivalent to -37 in the new FM but I do not know for sure)

So there are different working combinations as grand-masters differ in their use.

 

However if you use above 0 at low speed you will loose energy very fast. Above 0 is for high speeds to get the max performance instantaneous turn, it is a little bit counter-intuitive.

 

Also my approach is different, instead of trimming re-trimming constantly I just have a preset of power setting and trim. Just make those settings and I let the plane stabilize itself.

 

Otherwise it will be a constant work with the controls. I prefer to spend my attention looking around than spending on controlling the plane.

If any of you have other data let me know. That is only for 109.

 

 

And what would you use on the FW190? While this aircraft is much more convenient in this regard (more controllable at high speed regardless of stabilizer position, and faster to adjust), it still matters, and i would like to know what 'preset' would you choose, for a defensive scissors maneuver, for example?

Also, i recently saw a 'scissors' compilation with the old FM, where the flaps were fully released, consistently in the different clips. Does that make sense with the current FM?

Edited January 28, 2018 by rolikiraly

[JG27*Kornezov]

Allow me to have some trade secrets
For 190 a3 -25 is a good compromise.
 

Edited January 28, 2018 by JG27_Kornezov

[rolikiraly]

OK, you are much more talkative when noone asked for help, though  . Just kiddin' of course. Thanks anyway!

[=X51=VC_]

Just some feedback on this. 109G-2 trim goes from -6 to 2 on the cockpit dial. Annoyingly, the technochat is backwards so -6 is 100% and 2 is -100%. Seems pretty linear. Default is cockpit 1 (-75%) and that's level flight at 450km/h IAS. Cockpit -2 is 0%. I'll use cockpit dial numbers because I fly HUD off.

 

So, with -2 you can't really dive past 750km/h, because after 700 the plane pulls up by itself even against stick full forward. BUT, if you then pull the stick back, you get almost instant G-loc and go from a 45 degree dive to staring at the angels in seconds. First time I did this I assumed I would lose my wings (I didn't). 109 doesn't turn at high speed? This test completely redefined my understanding of the plane.

 

Kornezov do those numbers match with your understanding?

Edited January 30, 2018 by VC_

[JG27*Kornezov]

I only use percentage and I am confused with dial numbers. At high speed you need to use vertical stabilizer trim to pull out of a dive. Even if you regain some positive pith authority your plane cannot roll. And you do not have any negative pitch authority. Russian planes also lock at high speed but 109 locks before them (I am a Luftwhiner after all).)

Edited January 30, 2018 by JG27_Kornezov

[=X51=VC_]

Yes, you lose nearly all nose-down control but you can compensate by diving below and shooting them on the way up. At least that way you have enough reserve nose-up control to pull lead if they break instead of sailing helplessly past their tail. Ailerons get a bit stiff but nowhere near as bad as elevators.