How to outdive a Yak with a 109

[Blackhawk_FR]

It's not really easy to do this...

 

 

109 users, have you a special tips to accelerate a bit faster with the 109 in a dive? On my side, I've discovered that only 2 things will help you (although it's not transforming the 109 into a 262  ) :

- Closing radiators

- Elevator stab correctly adjust (well it make a real difference if you have -90/100% instead of -40/50%)

 

All others parameters (like pitch or flight symmetry) seems to have no effects on the acceleration and the final speed you reach at the bottom of your dive.

 

 

Now I'm asking the crazy and dangerous question....   Does the Yak IRL had this ability to stick the 109 in a dive, until he reach its VNE?

I'm not accusing the Yak (that I like to fly btw) of being OP or anything. I don't care about it... just curious about how it was IRL 

Edited January 10, 2018 by F/JG300_Faucon

[StaB/Tomio_VR***]

Well if i have enough altitude, my elevator stab is much closer of -100% than -50% to gain speed

[56RAF_Roblex]

The mistake many people make is to just to read the words 'faster dive speed than..' but not look at the actual figures and what it means in terms of getting separation ie if the Yak is in gun range when you start diving then it could still have plenty of time to kill you before you get out of range unless you are jinking in which case you are probably not faster any more. 

 

I have not seen figures for the 109 but it has been calculated that from equal airspeed a FW190 A3 trying to dive away from a Yak-1 s69  will take a full 30 seconds to gain 110m  of separation in a 15 degree dive and at 30 degrees still only gets about 130m.   30 seconds is along time to fly in a straight line under fire!     Now consider that if you have decided to dive away then your attacker was probably gaining on you.  Using those same figures but with the Yak doing 420km/h to your 400 km/h, just 5% difference,  he will actually be 40m closer after 15 seconds and the separation will not even get back to 0 until you have been under fire for over 30 seconds and it will be a full 70s seconds until you have gained 100m separation.  You would probably be at tree tops by then and any sensible attacker will have eased his dive a bit before that and thus shortened the distance to intercept you as you are forced to fly level.   

 

People make the same mistake with climb rates.  If I am chasing a 190 or 109 who is just out of effective gun range and getting no closer then the worst thing he can do is pull up and allow me to cut the corner and get closer.  Usually this allows me to make an easy planform kill but even if I don't manage that, I will often still have enough momentum to get on his 6 and stay in gun range long enough to get the kill as we both get slower.  Yes I am getting slower quicker than he is and if he has gone vertical and stays alive long enough for me to stall first then I am in trouble but he has been flirting with death while bullets fly past his head that whole time!

 

TL:DR version   When people complain an inferior aircraft managed to stay with them, they often mean 'the increase in separation between us was not big enough to save my ass.' :-)

Edited January 10, 2018 by 56RAF_Roblex

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

You can dive away if you see him early enough.

 

If he's already behind you firing at 300m, diving straight is not really an option. Try a hard maneuver, and if he decides to go back up again to conserve his energy, you should start diving at that moment.

[unreasonable]

Best time to dive away is when the opponent is unsighted and/or turned away from you. That is what gives you separation - the delay while he tries to see where you have gone, decides whether or not to follow, and turns onto your heading.  As Roblex says, the differences in speed and acceleration are not enough to make much difference if you both start your dive at the same time on the same heading.

[216th_Jordan]

I'm not accusing the Yak (that I like to fly btw) of being OP or anything. I don't care about it... just curious about how it was IRL 

 

AFAIK russian planes (LaGG/Yak1/7/9) were quite good at diving (especially with closed rads). I remember a report where it was stated that in a diving test the spitfire quickly lost a lot of ground against a LaGG3 in a dive.

 

But in the end as the others have said its the separation and relative speeds at the beginning of the engagement that count. If you go 36 km/h faster than your opponent (which is quite good) you still only win 10 m/s.

The 109 profits a lot from shallow climbs but I do not know how it fairs against others in a shallow or steeper dive.

[Blackhawk_FR]

The 109 profits a lot from shallow climbs but I do not know how it fairs against others in a shallow or steeper dive.

 

 

I've just noticed the Spitfire is a bit slower in dive. 

[Higaluto]

Do you use rudder in the dive\climb?

Step on the ball and keep it centered if diving in a 109, it requires alot of left rudder.

Rudder drag is moddeled in the game.

 

How much speed you loose if you dont use your rudder idk, but i always use the rudder in climbs\dives\turns.

[przybysz86]

You can dive away if you see him early enough.

unless he have tons of energy over you why would you dive at all? 109 is much better climbing away from Yak

[Blackhawk_FR]

 

 

How much speed you loose if you dont use your rudder idk, but i always use the rudder in climbs\dives\turns.

 

 

With and without symmetry correction give the same results. 

From what I've seen so far, the 2 things that will help you most are radiator closed and elevator stab correctly adjust. 

[BubiHUN]

In a dive, if a 109 is faster, the yak shoot it down, Not because its faster, or it has enough time to hit that 109. No. 
They just manage to get those lucky impossible hits, like on the wing tips, and the whole wing is blown off. 
The DM is pretty underworked(is that word exists?) on the german planes. 

[unreasonable]

In a dive, if a 109 is faster, the yak shoot it down, Not because its faster, or it has enough time to hit that 109. No. 

They just manage to get those lucky impossible hits, like on the wing tips, and the whole wing is blown off. 

The DM is pretty underworked(is that word exists?) on the german planes. 

 

The German aircraft are a little more fragile - IIRC the devs say they are working on the assumption that one wing spar is more vulnerable to damage than two. A subject on which there have been threads - I still do not know what the answer should be. 

 

If you actually run systematic tests - such as my Airfield defense mission - you will find, for instance, that about 87% of 109 G-4s hit by 20mm Flak 38 are "lost" (ie shot down or leaking fluids) compared to 73% of Yak-1 ser 69.  I expect that tests on other fighters would show a similar pattern. Ie the difference in DM is has a real effect,  but the effect should not be exaggerated.  

 

As for "impossible" shots - my own view is that this has far more to do with the lack of all the real stresses on a pilot trying to make the shot, rather than anything to do with the ballistics. Same reason the AI shoots far too accurately: no stress.

 

OP - apologies for off topic.

[56RAF_Roblex]

 

As for "impossible" shots - my own view is that this has far more to do with the lack of all the real stresses on a pilot trying to make the shot, rather than anything to do with the ballistics. Same reason the AI shoots far too accurately: no stress.

 

 

 

Or...the stupid 109 is flying in a straight line 300m in front of a Yak 'Because 109s dive faster than Yaks so I must be safe.'.   When your target is not moving it is a lot easier to get those 'impossible shots' at long range because you can keep firing short bursts and adjusting until you get a good hit.   VVS pilots see this a lot because they are usually chasing something that is slowly pulling away so it is 'Try a few impossible shots' or give up.   LW pilots don't have to do it so often because if the aircraft they are chasing is not quite in range then they can just save their ammo and wait until the target is in easy gun range.

Edited January 11, 2018 by 56RAF_Roblex

[Talisman]

The 109 is a very small fighter with small skinny wings.  This means it has some advantages, including that it is a smaller target and harder to hit.  But, when that small 109 target/wing is hit then the damage is a logically a larger percentage of damage than a fighter that is bigger and well made.  A small aircraft that is accurately hit by a number of 20 mm rounds is morel likely to suffer more damage to closely packed critical parts than a larger aircraft. 

 

Happy landings,

 

56RAF_Talisman

[Tipsi]

I always find that diving should be used as a last resort in the 109. When faced with a situation where a russian fighter is on my 6 at a reasonable distance; or usually when my plane is out of their "shooting range", I will usually tend to start climbing and pushing my engine to the limit to gain as much distance from him as possible. The one thing the 109 is really good at is climbing, especially the F4, G2 and G4. But there are obviously cases where climbing is not really a safe option...

 

I only find myself diving if: I have been "jumped"; shot without me knowing about it. In my opinion, if you find yourself in this situation, you have done something wrong a few "moves back".

However, it is only in the situation of being jumped, do I find myself diving.

 

All this boils down to situational awareness. If you spot an enemy attack early, you can choose the correct approach to deal with it. Just remember that when you dive, you also make it difficult for friends to help you out, and you force a 1v1 situation.

Edited January 11, 2018 by Tipsi

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

unless he have tons of energy over you why would you dive at all? 109 is much better climbing away from Yak

Haha I think that's clear to him already anyway. Why would you dive away when you have the advantage? Do people do that? :D

 

 

"Enemi at 3 o'clock, 2 kilometers below! Run François, maintenant!" hahah

[przybysz86]

Haha I think that's clear to him already anyway. Why would you dive away when you have the advantage? Do people do that? :D

I am not talking when you have advantage but even if enemy have slightly more energy but as Tipis said "is out of shooting range" it might be better to just climb instead.

 

If I am slow I will do shallow dive till I hit 400-500kph but then unless I am in immediate danger I will go into shallow 400kph possibly with very wide turn to see enemy. 

 

vs all VSS planes (including LaLas and Yak1Bs) there is not even need to go WEP with 109 to pull that off. Hell - even 190 can out-climb any VSS plane from deck to 3,5-4k if both start at similar energy and at least medium speed.

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

I always find that diving should be used as a last resort in the 109. When faced with a situation where a russian fighter is on my 6 at a reasonable distance; or usually when my plane is out of their "shooting range", I will usually tend to start climbing and pushing my engine to the limit to gain as much distance from him as possible. The one thing the 109 is really good at is climbing, especially the F4, G2 and G4. But there are obviously cases where climbing is not really a safe option...

 

I only find myself diving if: I have been "jumped"; shot without me knowing about it. In my opinion, if you find yourself in this situation, you have done something wrong a few "moves back".

However, it is only in the situation of being jumped, do I find myself diving.

 

All this boils down to situational awareness. If you spot an enemy attack early, you can choose the correct approach to deal with it. Just remember that when you dive, you also make it difficult for friends to help you out, and you force a 1v1 situation.

Tipsi is bang on here.

 

This is exactly what I do too. The only dive I make from a Yak is when I've been jumped. And I do this not to run away but to spoil a shot and either try force an overshoot for maybe a cheap guns shot but primarily with the eventual goal of getting enough separation to safely climb.

 

Only other reason to dive is to try equalise energy states slightly before I start to climb. (I'll gain speed faster in a short dive as the other plane is already fighting drag due to being faster).

 

At 4k plus you can outrun/reverse the fight/drag n bag. On the deck your dead.

 

109s should be climbing to get away.

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

I am not talking when you have advantage but even if enemy have slightly more energy but as Tipis said "is out of shooting range" it might be better to just climb instead.

 

If I am slow I will do shallow dive till I hit 400-500kph but then unless I am in immediate danger I will go into shallow 400kph possibly with very wide turn to see enemy.

 

vs all VSS planes (including LaLas and Yak1Bs) there is not even need to go WEP with 109 to pull that off. Hell - even 190 can out-climb any VSS plane from deck to 3,5-4k if both start at similar energy and at least medium speed.

Of course, I agree. It just seemed you wanted to contradict me, by adding more premises to the initial comment. Not with me buddy. We have the same opinions on that anyway, I'd sign the information you added.

I may add that the OP asked for when to dive, btw

[Ehret]

I have not seen figures for the 109 but it has been calculated that from equal airspeed a FW190 A3 trying to dive away from a Yak-1 s69  will take a full 30 seconds to gain 110m  of separation in a 15 degree dive and at 30 degrees still only gets about 130m.   30 seconds is along time to fly in a straight line under fire!     Now consider that if you have decided to dive away then your attacker was probably gaining on you.  Using those same figures but with the Yak doing 420km/h to your 400 km/h, just 5% difference,  he will actually be 40m closer after 15 seconds and the separation will not even get back to 0 until you have been under fire for over 30 seconds and it will be a full 70s seconds until you have gained 100m separation.  You would probably be at tree tops by then and any sensible attacker will have eased his dive a bit before that and thus shortened the distance to intercept you as you are forced to fly level.

 

It is important not to panic when trying to extend in a dive, when enemy is shooting at you. It may take a few moments but time is on your side and every missed shot of the enemy actually helps you, as it slightly slows him down. A plane directly behind isn't easy target either - silhouette is the smallest from this angle - just avoid pulls that expose wings. Once level you can run in slight turn coordinated - odds are the enemy pilot will not, thus slowing him further.

 

Of course all that only improves chances to some extend, but such is the nature of air combat.

Edited January 12, 2018 by Ehret

[=X51=VC_]

At 4k plus you can outrun/reverse the fight/drag n bag. On the deck your dead.

 

109s should be climbing to get away.

Thing is, the fight is never that high, it doesn't even start up there. I usually patrol at 3k and in 30 hours so far in this game I count two occasions I found reds above me. How do you extend and climb if you are say zooming after a pass and find a Yak on your 6 at 1k or 2k co-E?

[D3adCZE]

Thing is, the fight is never that high, it doesn't even start up there. I usually patrol at 3k and in 30 hours so far in this game I count two occasions I found reds above me. How do you extend and climb if you are say zooming after a pass and find a Yak on your 6 at 1k or 2k co-E?

Speed up to 450kph and keep this speed during the climb, you will be running away fairly quickly. Do not slow under 450, you are dead meat after that.

[JG27*Kornezov]

Whenever I see a pilot with experience in other Flight sim games I brief him that what he holds true is not working here.

The most common defensive strategy in other games is to dive away. Actually that does not work here in this game.

 

1. First Yak have a small initial acceleration advantage. 

2. Regarding the top speed in other games yaks start loosing parts at 630 km/h. Here at 600 km/h the Yak is a stable gun platform.

3. Regarding top speed Yak has a top speed of 750 km/h. The 109 has a top speed at 850 km/h. But guess what you never reach that top speed unless you dive  from more than 4000 m.

So below 4000;  4500 m forget to loose a yak in a dive.

Also you need a steep dive shallow dive will not do. You need a vertical dive in 109. And because of friction you may never even reach your top speed before you reach the ground. Also at high  speeds you controls lock so you need vertical stab to recover.

4. Considering you dove away and you are still alive. You are at 750 km/h on deck, the Yak is still behind you. The 109 will loose faster the speed than the yak. And the yak  will catch you especially if it is the yak 1b.

So the situation is not ideal for the 109, as what is considered as the golden standard defensive strategy does not work as it is supposed to. I think it is more of a game mechanic to assure equal and interesting game-play than real life plane characteristics.

So consider the advice  of  =TBAS=Tripwire and Tipsi.

56RAF_Roblex has also very good points.

Some free trade secrets:
 

You may ask what can be done? Out-diving yak is still possible as the best Russian pilots will rarely follow the 109 in a dive towards enemy territory especially towards incoming bandits who just have been shot down and eager for revenge.  Not because they will not get the kill but because they are in a very bad positional situation after that. As the gunshots will attract a lot of attention especially regarding the 109s that are coming into the action.

 

Use lights start shooting with machine guns. That will help you. They will call you a pussy and they will get banned. I know it is a trick but it works. 

 

But above all train scissors. They will serve you well after the dive lol.

in the dive use a lot of negative gs.
 

Zoom at the pursuing enemy, go in a little turn. Doing so they cannot just shoot at you from a dead six above you head. They need to put some lead. Then they will shoot.
You have 2 options.

-Either you constantly jink but that slows you down (i use that when I am at medium range).
-Or you just wait until they shoot (at long range). After the first tracer flies towards you make a little jink and change the turn orientation (just a slight change over a bigger distance makes a huge aiming difference for the bandit). The idea is to deny them the corrective fire, that is when they hit you. Doing so will increase you odds of survival. However there is always the possibility that a dot behind you gets your wing from the first shot from more than 650 m. behind you, that is how LW pilots get banned afterwards on WOL.

 

Edited January 25, 2018 by JG27_Kornezov

[Guest deleted@83466]

 

So the situation is not ideal for the 109, as what is considered as the golden standard defensive strategy does not work as it is supposed to. I think it is more of a game mechanic to assure equal and interesting game-play than real life plane characteristics.



 

 

Having never apparently flown a Russian aircraft in the this game, I think you really overestimate the ability of the Yak's diving ability.  Conspiracy theories about Overpowered Russian planes by people who have next to zero experience flying them online and therefore being able to see for themselves what they can and can't do simply have no credibility.   Need 4000 meters to able to dive away from a Yak?  Please.......what guys like you appear to want is be in a low and slow turnfight with somebody and then be able to jam the throttle forward and rocket out of gun range to disengage as if you had afterburners, or else you allege there is something "wrong".

 

Edited January 25, 2018 by Iceworm

[JG27*Kornezov]

Actually, I would not enter a debate with the guy who called me the oficial lufwhinner nº1. LOL. Actually the exact words were more offensive LOL.

Edited January 25, 2018 by JG27_Kornezov

[Guest deleted@83466]

And you never give me any reason to change my mind....look at the things you are constantly saying, starting with your signature.

 

I've followed you down to the deck and done a tail chase with you several times.  Most of the times I didn't catch you.  In the times that I did it was because even though I was well out of effective gun range and was steadily falling behind, perhaps you were so paranoid about the apocryphal "800 meter sniper shot" that you started wasting away your energy with slips and skids and excessive jinking, while I flew in a straight line, and that, and only that, was what allowed me to begin to close the distance. 

 

I think that by constantly putting forth the notion that the BF-109 is not very effective at diving away, and that only the most skillful expert can do it under such a narrow range of circumstances, you are actually hurting your side rather than helping it.  I see LW pilots who could easily get away from a bad situation by diving out all the time, with little technique other than firewalling the throttle, but convinced by people like you that it they aren't likely to succeed because the VVS planes are so awesome, they end up committed to a turning fight that they don't want to be in.  Likewise, I see BF-109 successfully disengage all the time, without any nuance or "expert technique" required on their part, other than just putting the nose down, trimming it, and pouring on the coals.  Obviously it isn't going to work all the time, depending on the situation, the relative starting energy states, fuel loads, and of course none of these planes can outrun bullets..and there are those guys who will keep chasing you all the way back to your base if necessary, shooting every ounce of ammunition they have, with no intention of flying smartly and coming back alive....and maybe they manage to slow you down sometimes.  So nothing is perfect, but again, you seem to not be satisfied unless you have an airplane that can prevail in all circumstances, no matter what...and that is the problem I have with your point of view.

Edited January 25, 2018 by Iceworm

[=X51=VC_]

Question, how does trim help with speed in a dive as opposed to just holding the right stick pressure and what is the correct trim setting for a run and disengage like this?

[Guest deleted@83466]

In the BF-109, with a moving Stabilizer it's going to cause a lot of drag if you aren't properly trimmed out.  In other planes, with trim tabs, that drag is pretty minimal.  The optimal Stabilizer trim setting is going to be whatever is necessary to allow you to have no stick deflection.

Edited January 25, 2018 by Iceworm

[JG27*Kornezov]

Everybody in this game gets shot down from time to time, but I think I never fought with you. If you were behind me, maybe you should consider that I wanted you to get closer, as I can overshoot 80 % of the yaks and out-turn actually again 80 % of the yaks. Sometimes you need to bet that behind you do not have the other 20 %.

Anyway people are free to test and compare the different strategies.

Edited January 25, 2018 by JG27_Kornezov

[=RvE=Windmills]

Does anyone use the rudder to center the ball in the 109 at high speed? I used to do it in the beginning but stopped recently because it's just too much of a distraction.

[Guest deleted@83466]

If you want top speed Windmills, you must center the ball.  Otherwise you are side slipping, and that is causing a lot of drag

[=X51=VC_]

So, it seems the best way to get a Yak off your 6 is to cut the throttle, dump the flaps and aim well.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Centering the ball is important in the 109. Less important than it was a couple of years ago. It seemed to match what I’ve read about pedal work on the 109 better before. The earlier 109 FM used to be much more sensitive to speed and power changes than it is now but everything else improved. So, I’ll take it.

[=362nd_FS=RoflSeal]

If you are diving (or shallow climb), make sure to be in a gentle turn so the enemy can't hit you easily from 800m (easy to do for good pilots on aircraft with centre mounted guns like Yaks and 109s)

[Ehret]

If you are diving (or shallow climb), make sure to be in a gentle turn so the enemy can't hit you easily from 800m (easy to do for good pilots on aircraft with centre mounted guns like Yaks and 109s)

 

And don't forget to correct a bank - odds are that an enemy pilot might be so preoccupied by aiming, he won't do the same.

[GridiroN]

Germans whale diving to the deck without considering the position their in is one of my favourite things. Once they get to the deck, they have thrown away their biggest advantage, and if im in an La5F, and of course found them at 3-4K, they've given me my 1750 horsepower back

[unreasonable]

I like whales too.    I agree - but what can you expect from people who judge the accuracy of the aerodynamics of this video game by comparing it with older, simpler video games?  

[JG27*Kornezov]

I like whales too.    I agree - but what can you expect from people who judge the accuracy of the aerodynamics of this video game by comparing it with older, simpler video games?  

You have  a point. You forget the historical records though.

 

There is nothing wrong to explain people what is going on in this game. I would be grateful for any explanations if I join CLOD, a different world. As I would not expect the e7 to do the same stuff here and Emil there.

Edited January 27, 2018 by JG27_Kornezov

[unreasonable]

You have  a point. You forget the historical records though.

 

There is nothing wrong to explain people what is going on in this game. I would be grateful for any explanations if I join CLOD, a different world. As I would not expect the e7 to do the same stuff here and Emil there.

 

I have not forgotten them - they have been discussed in the forum at length.

 

They can broadly be divided into two types; 

 

1) Historic test data

2) Pilot accounts, recommendations, tactical notes etc.

 

The developers have their trove of (1) and base their modelling on these. People have made - and will no doubt continue to make - critical observations about these modelling decisions, some of which may evolve over time. I am sure that we all accept that boiling down a mass of data into a single FM for a "typical" aircraft of each type will involve some guesswork and interpretation. 

 

The problem is relying on (2). As I have said before, drawing technical conclusions from anecdotes about flying, and in particular anecdotes about fighting - even tactical instructions - is not a good thing to do. There are simply too many things going that affect the outcomes.

 

I have no problem with you explaining to people what is going on in this game - it is a good part of this community that you and others take the trouble to do this. What I do have a problem with is the way in which you "explain". Pointing out that there are differences and that some things work differently from how someone playing an older, less sophisticated game is fine. But what you do - repeatedly - is to imply that IL-46 was right, BoX is wrong, we are not allowed to say why, get used to it.  That is why you will get push back when you make these kinds of posts.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Question, how does trim help with speed in a dive as opposed to just holding the right stick pressure and what is the correct trim setting for a run and disengage like this?

Your stabilizer trim acts as a second wing- The faster you go the more lift it produces. If you reach high speeds it will produce excessive lift creating a up pitch momentum. If you counter that with elevator you induce drag by producing downlift forcefully. When trimming the stabilizer to it's proper deflection for level / straight flight attitude and leaving the elevator as centered as possible the tail unit producest the least amount of drag.

 

Using the stabilizer properly was very important in the Bf 109 both when diving as well as turning at combat speed so it should not be neglected ingame.

 

Does anyone use the rudder to center the ball in the 109 at high speed? I used to do it in the beginning but stopped recently because it's just too much of a distraction.

Rudder is also very important to poerate properly. The 109 is layed out for speeds in the ~450 km/h range. Below that the pilot has to push right rudder to keep the ball centered and prevent crabbing (= drag). However, once you go beyond that speed range like in a highspeed dive the vertical stabilizer produces excesse lift overcompensating for the aircrafts left momentum means the pilot now has to use left rudder to center the ball. That is important to keep in mind and is also reknown from Luftwaffe pilot tellings.

 

If you want to get most out of your aircraft you have to work for it.

Edited January 28, 2018 by 6./ZG26_5tuka