What about making an "IL2 Battle of Ruhr" DLC?

[DusJG/1Caeser]

Hello!

 

What about making an "IL2 Battle of Ruhr" DLC, including the night raids by the Royal Air Force targeting Germany?

 

Airplanes would be the Avro Lancaster, Handley Page Halifax and Messerschmitt Bf-110 G-4.

That would be a very nice DLC!

It wasn´t included in the last IL2 Serieals at all and it would be sad to not give it a DLC in this great flight simulator.

 

 

Best Greetings Caeser.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

I prefer Bodenplatz vs. a 6-7 hour flight in a strategic bomber in pitch dark.

[PatrickAWlson]

What I would like to see are more maps.  Even without more planes  we could extend the war into all sorts of places.

[DusJG/1Caeser]

I prefer Bodenplatz vs. a 6-7 hour flight in a strategic bomber in pitch dark.

You can also fly Bombraids at day.   The RAF flew attacks also at day between 1944 and 1945.

 

And the britsh bombers are great planes!

[CanadaOne]

What I would like to see are more maps.  Even without more planes  we could extend the war into all sorts of places.

Yep, new maps are always welcome.

[Danziger]

No no no absolutely not. That's crossing the line.

[[APAF]VR_Spartan85]

hey dont forget about the Mossie!  I believe they flew path-finder missions and dropped marker flares on the target ahead of the bombers.

 

But all-in-all, i think a mosquito would be over all more capable to do in this sim, being a fighter bomber...

 

And its just awesome

[DusJG/1Caeser]

No no no absolutely not. That's crossing the line.

More maps without more planes, or "Battle of Ruhr"?

[csThor]

Remember the game engine excells at tactical operations, but isn't quite up to issues pertaining specifically to the strategic air forces. First and foremost the issue of map size and flight distances. Secondly any night ops as technically sophisticated as the one fought over Germany in the second half of the war add a considerable hurdle in the form of replicating said technical devices. I don't think many players would actually enjoy such ops because of their rather "technocratic" character (staring at radar screens or out into the darkness) without any guarantee of actually seeing anyone or anything ... gameplay-wise rather questionable. I believe such a scenario works better in procedure sims like DCS with its intricate systems modelling - and for the crowd that loves procedure sims.

 

And remember: We're talking about a small team here, one that actually postponed a major project because they could not get adequate technical details, drawings and manuals within a certain timeframe, without paying a fortune or jumping through too many hoops. I just think this Il-2 is the wrong engine, the wrong crowd and probably the wrong dev team (because they don't like making too many compromises) for such a scenario.

Edited January 9, 2018 by csThor

[InProgress]

But there are already night missions..

I played few in stalingrad camping as bf110 and you don't even have a radar to help you, yet it was possible and fun. Tho ai is cheating and can see in the dark. Game already has night so i don't see why it can't have more of it. I would enjoy night hunt as 110, kind of like uboot in the sky

 

Career mode and night missions will be great (;

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Heavy bombers are a non-starter for this team and game engine. Multiple threads as to the hurdles regarding such an endeavor.

[DusJG/1Caeser]

But there are already night missions..

I played few in stalingrad camping as bf110 and you don't even have a radar to help you, yet it was possible and fun. Tho ai is cheating and can see in the dark. Game already has night so i don't see why it can't have more of it. I would enjoy night hunt as 110, kind of like uboot in the sky

 

Career mode and night missions will be great (;

To shoot down a heavy bomber like the Lancaster or Halifax should be easy with a Bf-110.

[InProgress]

I know there wont be heavy ones, does not make impossible to do night mission, you can always shoot medium ones doing night bombing runs.

[PatrickAWlson]

I have fully implemented strategic night missions for RoF in PWCG.  One of my goals is to bring night missions to BoS as well.  The game definitely supports it, right up to doing lighting conditions based on historical moonlight (I had to go back to 1916-1918 lunar charts to get the dates for night bombing ).

 

So for night missions,yes.  WWII Strategic bombing campaigns ... not yet.  Nighttime strategic bombing campaigns are probably even further out.

[Tomsk]

What I would like to see are more maps.  Even without more planes  we could extend the war into all sorts of places.

 

Agree, Bodenplatte gives us most of the plane set for a Normandy scenario (June-July 1944 sort of thing). No FW 190 D9 (Aug 1944), or Bf 109 K4 (Nov. 1944) but most of the lineup still applies.

[Eicio]

I prefer Bodenplatz vs. a 6-7 hour flight in a strategic bomber in pitch dark.

 

I totally agree, bodenplatte is perfect, then it may be be PTO and if not I think that battle of Africa would be much more relevant and the map would be Awesome.

[DusJG/1Caeser]

I have fully implemented strategic night missions for RoF in PWCG.  One of my goals is to bring night missions to BoS as well.  The game definitely supports it, right up to doing lighting conditions based on historical moonlight (I had to go back to 1916-1918 lunar charts to get the dates for night bombing ).

 

So for night missions,yes.  WWII Strategic bombing campaigns ... not yet.  Nighttime strategic bombing campaigns are probably even further out.

Then is there a way to implement the Lancaster, Bristol Blenheim or Vickers Wellington as well?

 

I dont think it would be to hard to fight against a bomber with a Bf-110 at night.

If it´s not possible to implement heavy bombers. The RAF flew also with the Bristol Blenheim, Handley Page Hampden and Vickers Wellington! ;-)

And I think these are medium bombers...

[Tomsk]

Then is there a way to implement the Lancaster, Bristol Blenheim or Vickers Wellington as well?

 

Sadly, the current policy of the developers is no heavy bombers (such as the Lancaster). However, they could do medium bombers such as the Blenheim, or Wellington.

[InProgress]

Hmm i can be wrong but cliffs of dover have 1 heavy 4 engine german bomber. But i am not 100% sure. Ai only.

 

I don't know why we can't have heavy bombers :/ even as AI only in single player.

Edited January 9, 2018 by InProgress

[PatrickAWlson]

Hmm i can be wrong but cliffs of dover have 1 heavy 4 engine german bomber. But i am not 100% sure. Ai only.

 

I don't know why we can't have heavy bombers :/ even as AI only in single player.

 

Three reasons that I am aware of.

1. Intensive modeling of interior positions.

2. CPU usage by AI.  Lots of gunners = lots of bots = lots of CPU usage.

3. The mission sizes required to make sense would overwhelm the engine.  While nobody expects B17s to appear in formations of 1000 in a game, the engine probably can't handle much more than 8.  For night fighting #3 does not apply since bomber streams were effectively individuals.  

 

Still, lots and lots of resources to make a single heavy bomber.  I don't think anybody is saying never, just not now .. and maybe never.

[Corsair]

While I support the decision to keep heavy bombers out of the game, more emphasis on fast medium bombers (i.e. Ju 88 C & 188, Do 217 M on Axis side, I am not aware of any counterpart for VVS aside Pe-2) would be0 great.

Edited January 9, 2018 by EC.5/25.Corsair

[DusJG/1Caeser]

Three reasons that I am aware of.

1. Intensive modeling of interior positions.

2. CPU usage by AI.  Lots of gunners = lots of bots = lots of CPU usage.

3. The mission sizes required to make sense would overwhelm the engine.  While nobody expects B17s to appear in formations of 1000 in a game, the engine probably can't handle much more than 8.  For night fighting #3 does not apply since bomber streams were effectively individuals.  

 

Still, lots and lots of resources to make a single heavy bomber.  I don't think anybody is saying never, just not now .. and maybe never.

ROF has a four engine bomber (ok in IL2 1946 there where so many heavy bombers XD ) and I think ROF has the same gameengine. 

 

But when there is no way to include heavy bombers to the game, i would be happy to see british medium bombers on the battlefield! :-)

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

The history of previous titles may give some clues about the possibility of heavy bombers.

 

The old Il-2 did not have them until later in its development. I suspect that developers tackle easier projects first to fill the game with content. It is bad to expend huge amounts of resources on bombers that do not easily fit the context of the game. However, we did eventually get the Pe-8 and B-24.

 

Il-2: Great Battles is still young. As the series grows, the time for bombers may come. In the future, an abundance of other content combined with technical advances may permit the addition of bombers as a novelty. 

[ShamrockOneFive]

ROF has a four engine bomber (ok in IL2 1946 there where so many heavy bombers XD ) and I think ROF has the same gameengine. 

 

But when there is no way to include heavy bombers to the game, i would be happy to see british medium bombers on the battlefield! :-)

 

Keep in mind that for IL-2: 1946 the TWO heavy bombers added to the game that are fully flyable types took literally years. The guy working the B-24D for example took 7-8 years of research and modeling to make that a reality. Granted it wasn't his day job but that should give a bit of a clue as to how difficult it can be. The Pe-8 too was a major endeavor. Aside from that the rest of the bombers are all light and medium bombers and usually with less fidelity than we're now expecting.

 

Rise of Flight had a single four engine bomber. Crucially it has a single turret and no electronic systems at all.

 

A Lancaster would have two dual .303 turrets and a single quad .303 turret for a start. Then we have electronic systems. Many Lancasters were fitted with the H2S. They also commonly navigated using the "Oboe" system. All of this would need to be done to have some proper night operations. The issue then turns to how much appeal something like this would have.... It would have some but of a limited variety. Of course I think some people just want a big heavy bomber to fly at low altitude and shoot things in a dogfight server. Fun but kind of fruitless.

[Rolling_Thunder]

How about a "battle of the atlantic" DLC. Never done before. some interesting aircraft on both sides, escort carriers (nice place to start carrier tech if Japanese aircraft info is still scarce in a couple of years), catapult aircraft, anti shipping, depth charges, u-boats. Whats not to like?

[SYN_Speck]

What I would like to see are more maps.  Even without more planes  we could extend the war into all sorts of places.

 

+1

 

I really hope the Devs have this on their radar, though I'm not aware of any mention in their posts, unfortunately. IMO it would be a relatively low-cost way of making the BOX world a lot more interesting.

[unreasonable]

As Pat says most of what we need is already there. I have done a Yak night interception mission in "Ivan's War" IIRC - it was a lot of fun. 

 

Night fighter interception of RAF night raids - or GAF night raids over London in the Blitz - would actually be relatively easy for the engine to model.

 

1) No formations - the bombers flew in streams. This means:

 - No need for AI formation keeping issues, as would be the case for day bombing

 - Interception is essentially 1 vs 1, the "too many gunners" point is invalid

2) Night - no ground textures and objects on night only maps so do not need full detail

3) No need to model interiors of the bombers if you are just doing the night-fighter side

4) The on board radar aids are relatively simple and little known - if the sub sims can do a descent illusion of a passive sonar display, this team can do the air-air radars

 

In addition the engine could model the bomber side if it stuck to 2-engined types like the Mosquito - which would be a terrific addition to the game for the day side as well.

Edited January 10, 2018 by unreasonable

[InProgress]

There was radar in il2 1946,at least I saw video of it. In bf110 night version with mg that could fire from roof.

 

I don't get too many ai problem, in some planes we have you can see tail, belly, nose and side gunners + pilot. 5 inside, planes like Halifax or lancaster had 7. 2 more isn't that bad, I get b17 and 10 is a lot but 7?

 

Pilot

Flight Engineer

Navigator

Bomb Aimer

Wireless Operator

Mid-Upper Gunner

Rear gunner

 

Crew for lancaster. Do we really need to make some of them full ai? They could just sit there as 3d model, wireless operator, navigator, flight engineer. It's -3 crew. Basically only 4 actual crew members that would be alive and you could take their place. And if AI only plane then even better, so even here argument that too many AI to make heavy bomber work fails. I get it's impossible to make 1000 planes raid but even day mission on small scale 8 or something like this could happen.

Edited January 10, 2018 by InProgress

[bzc3lk]

ROF has a four engine bomber (ok in IL2 1946 there where so many heavy bombers XD ) and I think ROF has the same gameengine. 

 

But when there is no way to include heavy bombers to the game, i would be happy to see british medium bombers on the battlefield! :-)

 

That four engine bomber (Sikorsky S-22) also has only one gunner position (Turret: 1 х Lewis, 517 rounds) which is also a major governing factor of how many aircraft you  can have in the present Rise Of Flight ( Digital Nature Engine) and Bos gaming engine  (Digital Warfare engine). This point has already been outline by PatrickAWilson in his previous post.

 

"2. CPU usage by AI.  Lots of gunners = lots of bots = lots of CPU usage."

Edited January 10, 2018 by bzc3lk

[hames123]

You can also fly Bombraids at day. The RAF flew attacks also at day between 1944 and 1945.

 

And the britsh bombers are great planes!

I would love the British bomber raids. No need to simulate the whole flight, just have in place a series of waypoints that yoy follow to the target, bomb it, and then return. As a German night fighter, the British bombers will only spawn if you get close enough, or when they are close enough to the target to start lining up for the bomb drop. That way you can hurry in the direction of a German city going up in flames(though too late to majorly help any of your countrymen down there). Or you could check your radar to try and see if German radar has caught a glimpse of the raiders. Or fly around and hope to see a Lancaster caught in the searchlights. Or you could do a Mosquito career and dart between the bombers, looking for German fighters, or going low to strafe the searchlights. It would be very interesting, and with an expanded Bodenplatte map we could have it without needing a dedicated game for it. Then it could be a planes DLC.

 

Like I said above, to save CPU, just make the night map much less detailed down low if needed, and more importantly only spawn the bombers near to you or as they get close enough to line up and drop their bombs all over a city. Then have them disappear again when they get too far from you.

Edited January 10, 2018 by hames123

[InProgress]

"2. CPU usage by AI. Lots of gunners = lots of bots = lots of CPU usage."

 

How 3 gunners is more than we already have?

I think argument about lots of AI was about B17 and reason why we wont see it. But there are heavy bombers with small crew like helifax or lancaster, i don't see how this "lots of gunners" is problem here. Ju88 has also 3, same he111*. Only diffrence is 2 more engines.

 

he111 maybe even have 4? Front, side, belly and top.

Edited January 10, 2018 by InProgress

[J2_Trupobaw]

ROF has a four engine bomber (ok in IL2 1946 there where so many heavy bombers XD ) and I think ROF has the same gameengine. 

 

But when there is no way to include heavy bombers to the game, i would be happy to see british medium bombers on the battlefield! :-)

In airframe covered by other RoF planes , there were 4 S-22s operational. They never flew in large formations.

 

Anything meant to resamble strategic bombing of Germany would require more planes in the air than engine can handle.

[Tomsk]

Anything meant to resamble strategic bombing of Germany would require more planes in the air than engine can handle.

 

Clearly formations of several hundred strategic bombers is far beyond what the engine can cope with. But it'd still be really fun to fly a "miniturized" version with a few fighters escorting a few bombers at high altitude, and being intercepted by a few enemy fighters. Sure it's not on the same scale, but I think it'd still be a fun coop mission (although air-start definitely required!).

 

I can see building a flyable (and crewable) B-17 would be an awful lot of work .. but I don't see why an AI only version (which works for coop) couldn't be built ...

Edited January 10, 2018 by Tomsk

[DusJG/1Caeser]

There was radar in il2 1946,at least I saw video of it. In bf110 night version with mg that could fire from roof.

 

I don't get too many ai problem, in some planes we have you can see tail, belly, nose and side gunners + pilot. 5 inside, planes like Halifax or lancaster had 7. 2 more isn't that bad, I get b17 and 10 is a lot but 7?

 

Pilot

Flight Engineer

Navigator

Bomb Aimer

Wireless Operator

Mid-Upper Gunner

Rear gunner

 

Crew for lancaster. Do we really need to make some of them full ai? They could just sit there as 3d model, wireless operator, navigator, flight engineer. It's -3 crew. Basically only 4 actual crew members that would be alive and you could take their place. And if AI only plane then even better, so even here argument that too many AI to make heavy bomber work fails. I get it's impossible to make 1000 planes raid but even day mission on small scale 8 or something like this could happen.

Correct! This was a Bf-110 G4 the nightfighter version of the "normal" Bf-110. It was a fanmade mod for IL2 1946.

 

Yes, we only need three gunners, navigator, wireless operator and flight engineer don´t need to shoot. Also in case of the Halifax.

Clearly formations of several hundred strategic bombers is far beyond what the engine can cope with. But it'd still be really fun to fly a "miniturized" version with a few fighters escorting a few bombers at high altitude, and being intercepted by a few enemy fighters. Sure it's not on the same scale, but I think it'd still be a fun coop mission (although air-start definitely required!).

 

I can see building a flyable (and crewable) B-17 would be an awful lot of work .. but I don't see why an AI only version (which works for coop) couldn't be built ...

Yes you are right this would be nice too, to fly with a little squadron of maybe 4 Bombers and two fighters.

I remember, the Lancaster had a special version. The Avro Lancaster B I. "Dam Buster". This Version had no mid upper gunner only a rear and front gunner. The frontgunner was in every Lancaster and Halifax the Airbomber.

[InProgress]

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/930424264963614254/6241867AAC90650F9D00C5E1ADC12BE5C44482E1/

 

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/930424264963615879/A1D87E882AB51A192EB93FD150E90F4DD1F1B4D3/

 

[Royal_Flight]

How about a "battle of the atlantic" DLC. Never done before. some interesting aircraft on both sides, escort carriers (nice place to start carrier tech if Japanese aircraft info is still scarce in a couple of years), catapult aircraft, anti shipping, depth charges, u-boats. Whats not to like?

This is an excellent idea. And one of the most important theatres of war, as well as one of the most unrecognised.

 

The only difficulty is avoiding the one-sidedness as the Axis have no equivalent to FAA aircraft operating from escort carriers, and no fighters that really fit the setting.

 

However if this could be creatively worked around then an Atlantic theatre could be awesome.

Finding convoys or hunting surface-running submarines from the air, potentially relying on a last known sighting at a given time and having to work out where to look, coupled with balancing fuel to make sure you can get back to your carrier or land base would make for a great flight challenge, aside from the actual combat.

Add in the challenges of flying through the Atlantic's notoriously rubbish weather and there's a lot to get into.

 

Combat would be vicious as well with unexpected interception, or ship-borne flak adding to the challenge of trying to hit a ship out of a convoy, or attack a destroyer, or chase down a submarine before it crash-dives and escapes.

And considering you're probably quite far out to sea, any damage sustained means instantly RTB-ing and having to nurse the aircraft home.

 

With enough thought put into the right mechanisms to make this work, and the proper effort put into the presentation, this could make for an extraordinarily intense, intelligent and affecting release.

 

Multiplayer would be a total shambles though.

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

 Ju 88 C & 188, Do 217 M on Axis side, I am not aware of any counterpart for VVS aside Pe-2)

 

The late medium bomber for the VVS would be the Tu-2.

[Rolling_Thunder]

This is an excellent idea. And one of the most important theatres of war, as well as one of the most unrecognised.

The only difficulty is avoiding the one-sidedness as the Axis have no equivalent to FAA aircraft operating from escort carriers, and no fighters that really fit the setting.

However if this could be creatively worked around then an Atlantic theatre could be awesome.

Finding convoys or hunting surface-running submarines from the air, potentially relying on a last known sighting at a given time and having to work out where to look, coupled with balancing fuel to make sure you can get back to your carrier or land base would make for a great flight challenge, aside from the actual combat.

Add in the challenges of flying through the Atlantic's notoriously rubbish weather and there's a lot to get into.

Combat would be vicious as well with unexpected interception, or ship-borne flak adding to the challenge of trying to hit a ship out of a convoy, or attack a destroyer, or chase down a submarine before it crash-dives and escapes.

And considering you're probably quite far out to sea, any damage sustained means instantly RTB-ing and having to nurse the aircraft home.

With enough thought put into the right mechanisms to make this work, and the proper effort put into the presentation, this could make for an extraordinarily intense, intelligent and affecting release.

Multiplayer would be a total shambles though.

Wouldn't it though!

Make the FW condor multi station fill it with axis players or bomber players. A couple of those hunting convoys and being hunted by martlets, hurricanes.

The battle of the atlantic lasted the whole of the war in the west. I'd buy it, unfortunately a lor of fighter jocks wouldnt get much joy from it, especially axis players

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

And people complained about the distances and the scarcity of islands in a vast Pacific landscape.....

[DusJG/1Caeser]

And people complained about the distances and the scarcity of islands in a vast Pacific landscape.....

Yea, fits to the topic... XD