A.I are all knowing

[Bucket109]

Is it possible or has anyone ever been able to sneak up on an A.I plane in singleplayer.

[Boaty-McBoatface]

I know you can in quick mission if you come from underneath. Either set starting position from behind or shoot a plane down, when the next one respawns, come around underneath it from behind.

[Bucket109]

Thanks för the reply. Does this work with the fighter planes as well? Because not having to turn fight constantly in the career mode would be fun.

Edited January 8, 2018 by bucket_109

[Finkeren]

To be honest it’s hard to know. I very often get the feeling that you can sneak up on them, but whether that is truly a line of sight issue or a glitch or a problem with mission priorities is impossible for me to tell.

 

What I do know is, that the AI can easily become target-fixated, especially when hunting bombers, which allows you to line up directly behind them and shoot them down with ease.

[Pail]

I think if you catch them near to where they spawn in they can be particularly docile until they get closer to your 'planned  flight path' or action area but it is not really sneaking up on them per se..

[Bucket109]

Thanks for the replies.

I know that when I did the campagin. I Could come in From different Angeles,but it seem once the circle around me on the map was in the area of the action point. They instanty Know where I was. The only ones that I seem to be able to sneak up on are the ground attackers and Bombers. Never a fighter atleast not for me. Maybe just my own pilot error.

Edited January 8, 2018 by bucket_109

[unreasonable]

I am fairly confident that how easy it is to approach AI depends on their AI setting - novice to ace etc.  In campaign mode I have certainly got behind fighters that failed to take evasive action. You can see one occasion of this in my film "The Knights who say Nyet!"

 

I also recall one developer post (by Han in the Qs thread?) saying that the worse the AI level the more likely the AI was not to see enemies or lose SA, although I cannot find it. 

 

If so, the program is using a RNG to determine AI spotting the player, so the result is not easy to test. (In QM the enemy already sees you).  If you really wanted to know you would have to do some repeated controlled tests set up in the ME to see if AI level makes a difference.

Edited January 8, 2018 by unreasonable

[Bucket109]

Unreasonable that Film is amazing.

[unreasonable]

Unreasonable that Film is amazing.

 

Thanks! It was fun to make....  if you liked that you will probably also like "To Russia with Love" - rather longer, takes a while to really get going, but same comedy/action genre.

[Lensman]

All the time, yes. They often take no evasive action until I open fire. Try descending on them from high above and match speed behind them.

[Tomsk]

I’d say it doesn’t work too well, honestly. I often feel when trying to boom and zoom they spot you even when it’s more likely they wouldn’t; especially passes from low six. On the flip side they have incredible target fixation and so will often totally ignore having their tail chewed off. They also sometimes just sit there like a lettuce making no attempt to evade. It’s not just that they didn’t spot you before you opened fire .. they often never spot you long *after* you’ve opened fire as well ...

Edited January 8, 2018 by Tomsk

[unreasonable]

That is fine by me: need some easy targets . Seriously though, novices might never have been shot at before, panic and befuddlement.  Some people can pass all the flying school stuff then freeze when it is for real.  What are those glowing golf balls passing over my canopy.... 

[Tomsk]

That is fine by me: need some easy targets . Seriously though, novices might never have been shot at before, panic and befuddlement.  Some people can pass all the flying school stuff then freeze when it is for real.  What are those glowing golf balls passing over my canopy.... 

 

Yeah but even novices won't fly along straight and level indefinitely while someone just slowly chews their plane apart from close dead six. For example I've done this against AI yaks when my 190 was out of cannon ... just sat behind them and poured the twin 7.92 mm cowling guns into them from the behind. It takes forever, but since they will often just sit there and do nothing it works ...

 

The AI clearly gets stuck in a "I'm flying straight and level" mode ... and nothing that happens will change its mind.

Edited January 8, 2018 by Tomsk

[unreasonable]

Perhaps. Or maybe you had already badly wounded the pilot. 

 

Personally I have never seen this - but will look out for it and try to get it on track, since it clearly has comic potential.

 

edit - Anyway you can see the problem the devs have: the OP says the AI is all knowing, you are saying they are not knowing enough.  

Edited January 8, 2018 by unreasonable

[=WH=PangolinWranglin]

I think it's a combination of 2 problems. 1: the AI can see everything around it, but 2: the AI doesn't know what to do with all of this information. Up high they'll actually perform some interesting maneuvers and they seem somewhat competent, but once they hit the deck it all falls apart. Pinned between you and the deck, the AI tries to circle around to your six, but out of habit/advantage, we turn with it, thus perpetuating the issue. The AI will actually behave somewhat normally if you disengage, but they won't really do much. 

Here's a fun thing you can try real fast. Spawn up at 4+km in a 190 up against a Yak1b at the same altitude. Let the Yak get on your six then go into a dive and laugh at the yak as he proceeds to slam into the ground because the AI doesn't know when the controls stiffen. (This may only be at low level AI. I can't remember which level I was doing this on.) They do it reliably. Every. Single. Time.  

[Lusekofte]

I read somewhere that AI cannot see on the other side of the cloud and mountain, if they are able to see you in blindspot , I guess it is up to the coders and how the AI is programmed

[PatrickAWlson]

Wranglin put it well: the AI sees much better than you do, but they don't use the information terribly well.

 

One other thing: they get incredibly, unbelievably target fixated.  That can give the illusion of sneaking up on them but it is just an illusion.  They know you're there, they just don't care

[ShamrockOneFive]

Being up sun affects gunners and I presume fighter planes too. Sometimes when you come in from the sun or from a cloud you can surprise them. I find its pretty rare and once you're at an angle where they could see you... they do see you. They don't have omni vision but they are faster at spotting than most humans. Executing effectively on what they spot is more hit and miss.

[unreasonable]

It is their deflection shooting that I find most unnerving. That is difficult for a human, but especially at higher AI levels they have robotic precision. Since they are, indeed robots... the LAA is the same.

 

Actually if I were doing an AI revision I would keep the high level AI SA about the same, but degrade their shooting somewhat. 

Edited January 9, 2018 by unreasonable

[Feathered_IV]

I think one of the AI settings is: follow waypoints unless shot at.  Sometimes it gives the illusion that they haven't seen you.  Other times it makes you wonder what is wrong with them

[dburne]

It is their deflection shooting that I find most unnerving. That is difficult for a human, but especially at higher AI levels they have robotic precision. Since they are, indeed robots... the LAA is the same.

 

Actually if I were doing an AI revision I would keep the high level AI SA about the same, but degrade their shooting somewhat. 

 

I definitely agree with that.

[sniperton]

It is their deflection shooting that I find most unnerving. That is difficult for a human, but especially at higher AI levels they have robotic precision.

I think this screenshot illustrates the whole issue as well as that it's interrelated with how the AI "sees" through obstacles. The moment when the AI pulled the trigger the target plane would have been invisible to any human pilot not using icons.

(Needless to say that half a second later those rounds would exactly hit the 109.)

Edited January 9, 2018 by sniperton

[unreasonable]

The Soviet Marseille.   I do not mind them attempting shots like that - he could have seen you before then pulled into the lead turn - and after all in any turning fight it is impossible to see the target in most aircraft when the correct lead is achieved.    But the prediction of aim should be much less good, especially when the target is invisible.   Even with wings level and the target in sight the shot you illustrate is still difficult and low percentage: best done with a Fw190 with four cannons.

[hames123]

In my opinion, the AI needs to be less target fixated, or if it remains target fixated should still take snap shots at any enemy planes coming in front of it.

[Tomsk]

In my opinion, the AI needs to be less target fixated, or if it remains target fixated should still take snap shots at any enemy planes coming in front of it.

 

^^^ This.

 

Single biggest AI issue: the AI gets far too target fixated. It shouldn't even be too hard to improve it quite substantially. I can think of a few simple rules that should greatly improve the AI behaviour: disengage if under attack, switch target if a much better one appears, prefer to target nearby enemies that no ally is targetting.

[hames123]

^^^ This.

 

Single biggest AI issue: the AI gets far too target fixated. It shouldn't even be too hard to improve it quite substantially. I can think of a few simple rules that should greatly improve the AI behaviour: disengage if under attack, switch target if a much better one appears, prefer to target nearby enemies that no ally is targetting.

Indeed. And as a stop gap, maybe just make the AI be a little less predictable sometimes? Like maybe instead of having 4 ME 110s come from West against your flight of PE-2s you are escorting, and let us gun them down because they are slow and weak and generally ungainly(I cannot down ME 109s, they are way to fast for me, but I can get the 110s and bombers fine), they get a flight of 109s come from the East and draw you and you flight off, and then have the target fixated 110s come in and attack the bombers. So many ways around the problem at hand, so really the devs have no excuse for not acting.

 

And the most ironic thing is that the one type of plane that is not target fixated are the bombers. When you achieve your mission by downing one of them, the others turn back, and jettison bombs if you keep after them, even though often you intercept them very close to the target and it would make more sense for the bomber pilots to grit their teeth and keep going, since turning back at this stage would not help much and would cause their mission to be a failure. It is especially stupid when a flight of 6 Ju 88s turns away just because one of their members got downed, when only 2 minutes from their target(speaking of which, the bomber targets are almost always one factory building in a town, and never supply dumps or troop concentrations full of halftracks and trucks and supply mounds.)

Edited January 9, 2018 by hames123

[PatrickAWlson]

Looking for cooperative AI behavior is asking a lot.  I would love to see it, but in the short-mid term I would appreciate changes that make individual AI bots more believable in ways both good (better decision making, altitude retention, survivability) and bad (can't see through objects, loses sight, can be surprised)

[HeavyCavalrySgt]

It is their deflection shooting that I find most unnerving. That is difficult for a human, but especially at higher AI levels they have robotic precision. Since they are, indeed robots... the LAA is the same.

 

Actually if I were doing an AI revision I would keep the high level AI SA about the same, but degrade their shooting somewhat. 

 

 

Yeah, I had a Bob Hoover moment yesterday, looking at an IL-2 on my 9 o'clock as I was crossing in front of him a long way away. I was thinking there was no way he could hit me when he KO'd my engine.

 

LOL