Tiredness of the pilot (G factor)

[Herne]

I'm talking about what happen after black outs, no Gs pulling only   As I said if you manage to pull your G without having a black out, you can last long like this, with some training.

 

To summary again my idea, there are some planes you can pull very high G due to the maneuverability at high speed (Yak, Spitfire for example), and so get a G lock if you are not careful. After that, the pilot should loose a bit, more or less (hard to define, I know), of his efficiency in combat.

 

 

As you're talking about your interesting fighter experience, I'm wondering: How was the physical / G training of WWII pilots, compared to nowadays fighters pilots? Did they had centrifuge trainings?

Ever blacked out in game with a yak or a spit ? Not being able to see for a few seconds tends to reduce your combat effectiveness.

[Blackhawk_FR]

I did. And we can still control the plane, while the pilot should be unconscious, unable to control anything. And also, completely lost after the G lock. 

 

I've experienced it one time... During few seconds, it's like waking up without knowing who you are, where you are, and why you are in a plane. Not fun. 

[Herne]

yes, but read my experience earlier in the thread, not all black outs end in GLOC

[GP*]

I'm talking about what happen after black outs, no Gs pulling only   As I said if you manage to pull your G without having a black out, you can last long like this, with some training.

 

To summary again my idea, there are some planes you can pull very high G due to the maneuverability at high speed (Yak, Spitfire for example), and so get a G lock if you are not careful. After that, the pilot should loose a bit, more or less (hard to define, I know), of his efficiency in combat.

 

 

As you're talking about your interesting fighter experience, I'm wondering: How was the physical / G training of WWII pilots, compared to nowadays fighters pilots? Did they had centrifuge trainings?

 

Side note, based on your last question: I've only been to the fuge 3 times in my career. What's more important is consistent training and exposure to Gs in your aircraft.

[neofightr2]

I'm talking about what happen after black outs, no Gs pulling only   As I said if you manage to pull your G without having a black out, you can last long like this, with some training.

 

To summary again my idea, there are some planes you can pull very high G due to the maneuverability at high speed (Yak, Spitfire for example), and so get a G lock if you are not careful. After that, the pilot should loose a bit, more or less (hard to define, I know), of his efficiency in combat.

 

 

As you're talking about your interesting fighter experience, I'm wondering: How was the physical / G training of WWII pilots, compared to nowadays fighters pilots? Did they had centrifuge trainings?

I got news for you aside from blood pooling away from your brain thereby causing you approach g-loc there are no other physiological effects. There are famous videos out there that shows how people react after gloc/blacking out but after a few seconds everyone returns to normal. Whether you are flailing your arms or simply waking up everyone returns to normal and no, there is no fatigue affect afterwards. I have been to countless flight surgeon briefings and never ever was there mention of efficiency declining due to an inadvertent gloc or blackout.

 

This is some crazy myth that seems to never go away in the sim community.

 

There is no such thing as training for pulling Gs other than learning the "hook" maneuver. Yes over time your body does get more use to pulling Gs but there is no magical way of training against Gloc/blackouts other than perfecting the "hook" maneuver with a G-suit.

 

The centrifuge training that I got during my pilot training days was to show me what it's like when you approach gloc/blackout so I can recognize it coming and let off on the Gs. It was not to "toughen" me up and build up my g tolerance that would be a waste of money.

 

In my thousands of hours in the Hornet I learned to pull Gs just enough to feel the sensation of approaching Gloc. It was like feeling sleepy and every time I felt this I let off on the pull and recovered instantly. I never experienced a blackout or tunnel vision and I have pulled over 8 Gs on many occasions.

 

And one last thing, the majority of WW2 pilots did not have to worry about Gloc or blackouts simply because they were never pulling high Gs for that long enough. Dive bombing when done right (airbrakes extended, etc) would not have you pulling high-Gs anywhere near the amount of time where jet pilots do.

 

Fighter pilots unless pulling out of a deep running away dive would not be getting enough Gs to make an impact for blackouts or glocs.

Hard turns at the merge and into a lufberry in your typical avg ww2 fighter would not generate enough high Gs to cause a black out.

 

Why? Airspeeds. You need at least 300-350kts to pull 6gs for more than 2-3 seconds. Most WW2 fighters could only pull that off in a dive.

Once in a dogfight you weren't going to do that unless you dived and ran away and decided to do a 180 back to the fight. And that would be poor tactics.

 

It wasn't until the arrival of the really fast planes like the mustang and the beginning jets did Gloc, gsuits and blackouts became a real and common issue.

[neofightr2]

Ok one last thing on this. I just realized you might be confusing G-loc/blackout and high-altitude sickness.

 

Lack of cockpit pressuration/o2 mask will affect pilot efficiency starting at an altitude of 10,000 feet for more than 3 hours.

At 30k feet, loss of pressure only takes a minute or two to drastically affect the pilot.

 

This is a very serious condition and very dangerous because pilots don't see it coming. All it takes is a faulty o2 mask or a malfunction pressurized cockpit.

It can cause pilots to behave erratically or simply pass out and yes it can also cause fatigue.

 

Not sure if it would be worth modeling this in the sim since it wouldn't add much to the fun factor of the game.

 

Here are the symptoms via wiki:

Primary symptoms[edit]

Headaches are the primary symptom used to diagnose altitude sickness, although a headache is also a symptom of dehydration. A headache occurring at an altitude above 2,400 metres (7,900 ft) – a pressure of 76 kilopascals (0.75 atm) – combined with any one or more of the following symptoms, may indicate altitude sickness:

Gastrointestinal disorder: Loss of appetite, nausea, or vomiting, excessive flatulation^[8]Nervous system disorder: Fatigue or weakness, headache with or without dizziness or lightheadedness, insomnia Locomotory system disorder: Peripheral edema (swelling of hands, feet, and face) Respiratory system disorder: Nose bleeding, shortness of breath upon exertion Cardiovascular system disorder: Persistent rapid pulse Others: Pins and needles, general malaise

Edited January 11, 2018 by neostar

[J2_Trupobaw]

No, thanks. I need not computer to simulate tiredness for me. When I find time to fly sims I usually have more than enough of genuine, not simulated stuff.

[Dakpilot]

 

Ok one last thing on this. I just realized you might be confusing G-loc/blackout and high-altitude sickness.

 

Lack of cockpit pressuration/o2 mask will affect pilot efficiency starting at an altitude of 10,000 feet for more than 3 hours.

 

This is a very serious condition and very dangerous because pilots don't see it coming. All it takes is a faulty o2 mask or a malfunction pressurized cockpit.

It can cause pilots to behave erratically or simply pass out and yes it can also cause fatigue.

 

Not sure if it would be worth modeling this in the sim since it wouldn't add much to the fun factor of the game.

 

Here are the symptoms via wiki:

Primary symptoms[edit]

Headaches are the primary symptom used to diagnose altitude sickness, although a headache is also a symptom of dehydration. A headache occurring at an altitude above 2,400 metres (7,900 ft) – a pressure of 76 kilopascals (0.75 atm) – combined with any one or more of the following symptoms, may indicate altitude sickness:

Gastrointestinal disorder: Loss of appetite, nausea, or vomiting, excessive flatulation^[8]Nervous system disorder: Fatigue or weakness, headache with or without dizziness or lightheadedness, insomnia Locomotory system disorder: Peripheral edema (swelling of hands, feet, and face) Respiratory system disorder: Nose bleeding, shortness of breath upon exertion Cardiovascular system disorder: Persistent rapid pulse Others: Pins and needles, general malaise

 

 

 

Pretty sure is already in game, just activation is automatic and visible oxygen mask is not yet modelled, damage to oxy bottles will have an effect, however most combat (all  ?) takes place below 10k

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Herne]

Pretty sure is already in game, just activation is automatic and visible oxygen mask is not yet modelled, damage to oxy bottles will have an effect, however most combat (all  ?) takes place below 10k

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

10k in feet is only about 3k meters approx. Still a fair bit of in game combat that takes place at equivalent or greater altitude. Like you say though, oxygen is automatic, I've seen it damaged so it less effective, by about 50% if I recall. Not sure how damage states for oxygen work in game.

[162nd-YU-Markoni]

Pilot fatigue is realistic. And it would be nice if it can be optional on expert servers. But before that we need a plane with all buttons that can be pushed!

It would be nice if on expert server pilot needs to manually start the plane. Fuel pump, magnetos... Everything.

[Herne]

Pilot fatigue is realistic. And it would be nice if it can be optional on expert servers. But before that we need a plane with all buttons that can be pushed!

It would be nice if on expert server pilot needs to manually start the plane. Fuel pump, magnetos... Everything.

 

I disagree. I can see how it might add, to the immersion, but not necessarily add anything at all to game play. I am content to sit, watch, and wait while the engine start sequence takes place.

 

I mentioned earlier that you are more likely to feel fatigue through maintaining high levels of alert, than pulling a few G's. I can tell you that playing in VR, constantly checking your six and maintaining a good look out takes discipline, if you do it properly you will feel fatigue. No need to simulate it, the fatigue is real, just as the excitement when combat starts is equally as thrilling.

 

 

[busdriver]

But before that we need a plane with all buttons that can be pushed!

It would be nice if on expert server pilot needs to manually start the plane. Fuel pump, magnetos... Everything.

 

That's the LAST thing I want in an AIR COMBAT simulation.

[Guest deleted@83466]

I would be for some residual G effects.  One of the most common defensive manuevers one sees in this game is repeated Negative G maneuvers (which I think some have referred to as the Hartmann manuever).  Perfectly valid thing to do, but negative G's cause considerable discomfort, give people throbbing headaches, and pop blood vessels in the eyes and brain  I'm told that -G's just aren't something that people are inclined to do over and over and over again.  We already have the Redout obviously, someone mentioned the idea of incurring a slight "wound" from repeated G effects...  At first I scoffed at the idea, but the more I think about it, maybe he is on to something. 

 

[Herne]

I would be for some residual G effects.  One of the most common defensive manuevers one sees in this game is repeated Negative G maneuvers (which I think some have referred to as the Hartmann manuever).  Perfectly valid thing to do, but negative G's cause considerable discomfort, give people throbbing headaches, and pop blood vessels in the eyes and brain  I'm told that -G's just aren't something that people are inclined to do over and over and over again.  We already have the Redout obviously, someone mentioned the idea of incurring a slight "wound" from repeated G effects...  At first I scoffed at the idea, but the more I think about it, maybe he is on to something. 

 

I wonder actually what the negative G limitations were for all of these aircraft, regardless of the pilot limitations.

[Willy__]

One of the most common defensive manuevers one sees in this game is repeated Negative G maneuvers (which I think some have referred to as the Hartmann manuever). 

 

Funny enough, most of the times I see this happening, the pilot player is flying a VVS aircraft....    

Edited January 11, 2018 by 3./JG15_Staiger

[216th_Jordan]

Funny enough, most of the times I see this happening, the pilot player is flying a VVS aircraft....    

 

That says more about the blue pilots though

[=362nd_FS=RoflSeal]

I got news for you aside from blood pooling away from your brain thereby causing you approach g-loc there are no other physiological effects. There are famous videos out there that shows how people react after gloc/blacking out but after a few seconds everyone returns to normal. Whether you are flailing your arms or simply waking up everyone returns to normal and no, there is no fatigue affect afterwards. I have been to countless flight surgeon briefings and never ever was there mention of efficiency declining due to an inadvertent gloc or blackout.

 

This is some crazy myth that seems to never go away in the sim community.

 

There is no such thing as training for pulling Gs other than learning the "hook" maneuver. Yes over time your body does get more use to pulling Gs but there is no magical way of training against Gloc/blackouts other than perfecting the "hook" maneuver with a G-suit.

 

The centrifuge training that I got during my pilot training days was to show me what it's like when you approach gloc/blackout so I can recognize it coming and let off on the Gs. It was not to "toughen" me up and build up my g tolerance that would be a waste of money.

 

In my thousands of hours in the Hornet I learned to pull Gs just enough to feel the sensation of approaching Gloc. It was like feeling sleepy and every time I felt this I let off on the pull and recovered instantly. I never experienced a blackout or tunnel vision and I have pulled over 8 Gs on many occasions.

 

And one last thing, the majority of WW2 pilots did not have to worry about Gloc or blackouts simply because they were never pulling high Gs for that long enough. Dive bombing when done right (airbrakes extended, etc) would not have you pulling high-Gs anywhere near the amount of time where jet pilots do.

 

Fighter pilots unless pulling out of a deep running away dive would not be getting enough Gs to make an impact for blackouts or glocs.

Hard turns at the merge and into a lufberry in your typical avg ww2 fighter would not generate enough high Gs to cause a black out.

 

Why? Airspeeds. You need at least 300-350kts to pull 6gs for more than 2-3 seconds. Most WW2 fighters could only pull that off in a dive.

Once in a dogfight you weren't going to do that unless you dived and ran away and decided to do a 180 back to the fight. And that would be poor tactics.

 

It wasn't until the arrival of the really fast planes like the mustang and the beginning jets did Gloc, gsuits and blackouts became a real and common issue.

 

Positive G's I think are fine, but what do you think of how negative G's are experienced ingame, from my small amount of air hours in a small plane when I was in air cadets, even negative -0.5G is one of the most uncomfortable sensations you can feel, yet ingame, the most common defensive maneuver is full nose down, -2 to -3Gs immediately.

[Guest deleted@83466]

Funny enough, most of the times I see this happening, the pilot player is flying a VVS aircraft....    

 

Nice attempt to bait...but your sarcasm is obviously completely irrelevant to what side the player is on. I know that you only fly one side in this game, but for once at least, lets try to keep the LW/VVS partisanship out of this discussion and focus on the discussion at hand.

[Dakpilot]

Not sure how up to date this is, but VVS A/C generally cannot produce as much negative G due to less elevator authority, is also why generally easier to fly

 

Bf 109 F-4: -4g , after that it's stalls

Bf 109 G-2: -4g , after that it's stalls

Fw 190 A-3: -3g , after that it's stalls

LaGG-3 ser.29: -1g , can't achieve more AoA and G on max pushed stick pitch and trim

La-5 ser.8: -2g , can't achieve more AoA and G on max pushed stick pitch and trim

Yak-1 ser.69: -3g , can't achieve more AoA and G on max pushed stick pitch and trim

 

 

Cheers, Dakpilot

[Willy__]

 

 

Nice attempt to bait...but your sarcasm is obviously completely irrelevant to what side the player is on. I know that you only fly one side in this game, but for once at least, lets try to keep the LW/VVS partisanship out of this discussion and focus on the discussion at hand.

 

Agreed. I wasnt trying to bait though, sorry if that came that way.    

[Ropalcz]

I'm also looking for memories of WWII pilots talking about it. My experience of G force is only based on aerobatics flights, which is quite different: we take higher G (positive and negative), but we don't have to sustain it for more than few seconds (maximum 5-6 seconds, which is enough to get a black out btw). And the average duration of the flight is 15 minuts. 

 

Read "Fighter over Finland" from Eino Anteero Luukanen. He is describing the high positive G overload - One day, he got inflammation of nasal cavity and was not able to breath through nose. The next day, he had to evade soviet fighter by a high speed dive and had to pull hard to recover from the dive. He returned back to the airfield and landed safely. His plane (BF 109 G-2 or G-6, don´t remember) was untouched, but that huge overload ripped away the soft tissues from his nose. His face and swimming vest were covered by his blood, but as he writes "he was finally able to breathe with his nose again"

[neofightr2]

Positive G's I think are fine, but what do you think of how negative G's are experienced ingame, from my small amount of air hours in a small plane when I was in air cadets, even negative -0.5G is one of the most uncomfortable sensations you can feel, yet ingame, the most common defensive maneuver is full nose down, -2 to -3Gs immediately.

negative g's are uncomfortable because you are hanging by your harness and at over 2Gs that gets very painful plus you get all kinds of dirt and debris hiding under the floor coming up to meet you and get can get nasty especially in those ww2 planes.

 

As to blood pressure to the head that would increase too but you can tolerate that much longer than you can with hanging by the harness.

[Blackhawk_FR]

I would be for some residual G effects.  One of the most common defensive manuevers one sees in this game is repeated Negative G maneuvers (which I think some have referred to as the Hartmann manuever).  Perfectly valid thing to do, but negative G's cause considerable discomfort, give people throbbing headaches, and pop blood vessels in the eyes and brain  I'm told that -G's just aren't something that people are inclined to do over and over and over again.  We already have the Redout obviously, someone mentioned the idea of incurring a slight "wound" from repeated G effects...  At first I scoffed at the idea, but the more I think about it, maybe he is on to something. 

 

 

Of course negative G are not confortable, but it's quite easy to support them, up to -3. And up to -7/-8 with trainings. Your body quickly get used to it, without having throbbing headaches 

 

The thing is, after pushing negative G, if you pull positive G shortly/immediatly after, the black vision/black out will come earlier. It's because under negative G, blood vessels widen, so when you pull positive G, the blood "fall down" faster in your legs.

[JV69badatflyski]

Not sure how up to date this is, but VVS A/C generally cannot produce as much negative G due to less elevator authority, is also why generally easier to fly

 

Bf 109 F-4: -4g , after that it's stalls

Bf 109 G-2: -4g , after that it's stalls

Fw 190 A-3: -3g , after that it's stalls

LaGG-3 ser.29: -1g , can't achieve more AoA and G on max pushed stick pitch and trim

La-5 ser.8: -2g , can't achieve more AoA and G on max pushed stick pitch and trim

Yak-1 ser.69: -3g , can't achieve more AoA and G on max pushed stick pitch and trim

 

 

Cheers, Dakpilot

at those numbers, if the neg G is sustained for 5sec,the pilot's out.

the real pb for the neg G's is mechanical.

How long can an engine give sufficient power/thrust and not fail?

if the fuel flow can be guaranteed:

All the carb's engines even with miss shelling like item are out  immediately: engine cut or power loss due to minimized fuel-flow.

Injection engines: theoritically infinite time but then comes the pb with lubrification: For how long can a Merlin, a Db, a Klimov work inverted before seizure? i'd like to think it's counted in seconds, depending on the internal oil volume but then come the pb related to the oil tank that for most of our planes isn't designed to allow suffucient flow in Neg G mode.

The only plane from WW2 that i know that actually "could" be flown inverted until the oil ran out is the Wurger because of the design of it's frontal oil tank.

 

After this small anecdote...

I'd like also to have some more pilot's effects after G's modelled or even fatigue due to heavy controls.

But even before that, i'd also like to see implemented the differences of G's effects depending on the plane type: a pilot in a Wurger should not have the same effect in a 5G turn as a Spitfire pilot, not even talking about the VVS pilots, only because of his lying position and not the "sitting" position found in the spits or vvs planes. This point was never implemented in any Sim-game (exept for some il2 modded versions).

 

 

[Venturi]

I think modern fighter pilots are probably at a level of fitness, training, equipment, and straight-up RESTEDNESS that their WW2 counterparts could not possibly have aspired to. They were in a shooting war with multiple missions per day... for months - years?

 

And as for the speed requirement to generate G-forces, well, I have to say that any rolling, diving scissors fight from 2km and above should theoretically give you the situation and enough energy to get a G loc. Nevermind from 7-8km like when the bomber streams over West Europe were encountered... why else were semi-recumbent seats and G-suits invented during WW2? Because they were unneeded? 

 

Physiologically speaking...

 

Positive Gs are essentially like losing your blood pressure to your brain. People react differently depending on the amount of time and the severity. I have had a grey-out, progressing to tunnel-vision and near blackout. It came with nausea, hyperventilation, and a sense of doom, weakness, and a loss of ability to concentrate. This lasted for a minute after recovering...

 

Negative Gs are essentially increasing your intracranial blood pressure. As such they are a cause of headaches, papilledema, retinal hemorrhages, and worst case scenarios result in intracranial bleeds aka hemorrhagic strokes. It's called a "red out" because your retina (which gets its blood supply from the same vessels that feed your brain) is becoming engorged with blood... and you are seeing through the engorged vessels. Bleeds don't disappear once you stop pulling Gs. Luckily, pilots feel very uncomfortable indeed and stop pulling negative Gs...

 

Your brain is very good at auto-regulating its blood flow, because this is critical to its function. When this mechanism is overwhelmed, positive or negative, there are consequences. Just because you are young and hot stuff, doesn't mean your brain doesn't follow the rules... and when your brain gets whacked, you are whacked...

I've posted a USAF research paper on these forums which detailed the consequences of positive G black-out. 

 

Like any person who suddenly loses blood pressure to their brains, some pilots went into seizures...

[Venturi]

Ok one last thing on this. I just realized you might be confusing G-loc/blackout and high-altitude sickness.

 

Lack of cockpit pressuration/o2 mask will affect pilot efficiency starting at an altitude of 10,000 feet for more than 3 hours.

At 30k feet, loss of pressure only takes a minute or two to drastically affect the pilot.

 

B17 crewmen at 25,000' who lost O2 from battle damage, pretty much went unconscious immediately.

 

Everest climbers WITH OXYGEN, permanently lose an estimated 5-10 IQ points from the prolonged hypoxia (aka brain damage).

 

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/brain-cells-into-thin-air/

https://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/10/20/mountain-climbing-bad-for-the-brain/

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/10/081016084045.htm

[Herne]

B17 crewmen at 25,000' who lost O2 from battle damage, pretty much went unconscious immediately.

 

Everest climbers WITH OXYGEN, permanently lose an estimated 5-10 IQ points from the prolonged hypoxia (aka brain damage).

 

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/brain-cells-into-thin-air/

https://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/10/20/mountain-climbing-bad-for-the-brain/

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/10/081016084045.htm

And yet some climbers climb Everest without oxygen

[unreasonable]

And yet some climbers climb Everest without oxygen

 

They had obviously lost IQ before climbing.

[Avimimus]

I'd like this. Also a bit more head motion under G-forces - especially for gunners.

 

Gun jams would also be good.

[Blackhawk_FR]

 

 

I'd like this. Also a bit more head motion under G-forces

 

I was thinking the same thing, few weeks ago. But after trying myself IRL, you can easily hold your head under G forces, negative and positive.

 

For example in COD, the head motion is just way way WAY too much exaggerated, especially during rolls.

[neofightr2]

I think modern fighter pilots are probably at a level of fitness, training, equipment, and straight-up RESTEDNESS that their WW2 counterparts could not possibly have aspired to. They were in a shooting war with multiple missions per day... for months - years?

 

And as for the speed requirement to generate G-forces, well, I have to say that any rolling, diving scissors fight from 2km and above should theoretically give you the situation and enough energy to get a G loc. Nevermind from 7-8km like when the bomber streams over West Europe were encountered... why else were semi-recumbent seats and G-suits invented during WW2? Because they were unneeded? 

 

Physiologically speaking...

 

Positive Gs are essentially like losing your blood pressure to your brain. People react differently depending on the amount of time and the severity. I have had a grey-out, progressing to tunnel-vision and near blackout. It came with nausea, hyperventilation, and a sense of doom, weakness, and a loss of ability to concentrate. This lasted for a minute after recovering...

 

Negative Gs are essentially increasing your intracranial blood pressure. As such they are a cause of headaches, papilledema, retinal hemorrhages, and worst case scenarios result in intracranial bleeds aka hemorrhagic strokes. It's called a "red out" because your retina (which gets its blood supply from the same vessels that feed your brain) is becoming engorged with blood... and you are seeing through the engorged vessels. Bleeds don't disappear once you stop pulling Gs. Luckily, pilots feel very uncomfortable indeed and stop pulling negative Gs...

 

Your brain is very good at auto-regulating its blood flow, because this is critical to its function. When this mechanism is overwhelmed, positive or negative, there are consequences. Just because you are young and hot stuff, doesn't mean your brain doesn't follow the rules... and when your brain gets whacked, you are whacked...

I've posted a USAF research paper on these forums which detailed the consequences of positive G black-out. 

 

Like any person who suddenly loses blood pressure to their brains, some pilots went into seizures...

if you read my post carefully you see I mention diving as the only way to consistently pull high-g's in ww2 planes. In dogfights meeting at level altitudes if you know what you are doing you will not have the excess energy for a gloc in a ww2 plane. Now if you don't know what you are doing then yeah you will do something stupid and have plenty of energy for a gloc (if the enemy hasn't shot you up first).

 

I have experienced enough negative Gs to know that it's really hard to get to the red-out stage because unless you have massive negative elevator trim set in you will not have the ability to maintain hands on the stick (not to mention feet on the pedals) to continue negative G flight. In combat you weren't cinched down with the straps like you would be as an aerobatic airshow pilot. You had to keep the straps loose so you could look around and check your six. So to pull hard negative G's in combat was to almost instantly lose control of the plane to which the plane was likely to return to positive G flight on it's own.

 

And I will say again, I have had many occasions pulling 6 plus Gs (a couple of 8 Gs) and never came close to a black out. I never once in my career was briefed by a flight surgeon about not being able to function for minutes on end after a black out.

Again read my post carefully, I stated clearly the need for G-suits and "hook" training came with the arrival of the fast planes like the P-51 and the early jet planes late in the war.

 

No doubt WW2 pilots were fatigued due to the nature of war op tempo but I am pretty sure they aware of the need for pilot rest back in those days too.

 

I had plenty of long op days during my combat deployment on carriers and still was able to perform well even landing on carriers with above avg grades after going for 10 hours straight in the air. So it depends on the pilot of course but fatigue is no guarantee of poor performance or blackouts.

 

No idea why you feel you need to correct me.

 

-retired F18 pilot

[Venturi]

In relation to your

 

"And one last thing, the majority of WW2 pilots did not have to worry about Gloc or blackouts simply because they were never pulling high Gs for that long enough."

 

While I respect your background, I don't think you can extrapolate your modern experiences to make such blanket statements about WW2 combat. Although I agree with your technical statement about sustained Gs in horizontal maneuvers in WW2 aircraft, I think diving maneuvers were extremely common in actual WW2 fighter combat, and that G-LOC was an issue for WW2 pilots in these situations. Why else would Messer. design slouch into his pilot couches, all the way back in the 30s...?

 

----

 

Regarding your

 

"I never experienced a blackout or tunnel vision and I have pulled over 8 Gs on many occasions."

 

and 

 

"Whether you are flailing your arms or simply waking up everyone returns to normal and no, there is no fatigue affect afterwards."

 

and

 

"I never once in my career was briefed by a flight surgeon about not being able to function for minutes on end"

 

Well, here's Dr. James Whinnery, MD PhD, USN ... conducting a study (NADC 88100-60) of 500 pilots with G-LOC [attached]. His findings were, among many others: 

 

 

1. At about 7.5g, G-LOC occurs for most pilots when they are trained to use anti-G straining maneuvers. Without this, they G-LOC at only 5.7g. (pg 24)

2. The average ABSOLUTE incapacitation (blackout) length of time at G-LOC is about 12s. (pg 16)

3. The average RELATIVE incapacitation (confusion, inable to perform a task) length of time at G-LOC is an additional 15s to #2 above, for a total incapacitation of 27-28s. (pg 16)

4. The length of time that Gs must be pulled to accomplish blackout is 6.9s. (pg 41)

 

 

Seizures, which he observed are associated with G-LOC, indicate that there is a relationship to blacking out and cerebral injury or dysfunction:

 

(pg 34):

"This relationship, as shown in Figure 5, is extremely important for understanding G-LOC as it pertains to pilot safety. In addition to unconsciousness and subsequent incapacitation, myoclonic convulsions result when the ischemic/hypoxic insult to the CNS is sufficiently great. These myoclonic convulsions occur in a specific relationship to the unconsciousness and recovery. The myoclonic convulsions occur after onset of unconsciousness and follow the return of CNS blood flow, as determined by temporal artery doppler flow measurements."

 

I am not attempting to deny your experiences, but rather add some refinement to your observations as they relate to WW2 aviators.

g.pdf

[Herne]

Quite honestly I think most pilots pulling enough G's to approach blackout in WW2, would realise they were overdoing it, when they start to lose colour, in their vision, or even experience tunnel vision, they would ease off on the stick.

 

I am confident, that they would get enough warning to ease off, that they would never experience GLOC unless they were intentionally trying to push for it.

[neofightr2]

In relation to your

 

"And one last thing, the majority of WW2 pilots did not have to worry about Gloc or blackouts simply because they were never pulling high Gs for that long enough."

 

While I respect your background, I don't think you can extrapolate your modern experiences to make such blanket statements about WW2 combat. Although I agree with your technical statement about sustained Gs in horizontal maneuvers in WW2 aircraft, I think diving maneuvers were extremely common in actual WW2 fighter combat, and that G-LOC was an issue for WW2 pilots in these situations. Why else would Messer. design slouch into his pilot couches, all the way back in the 30s...?

 

----

 

Regarding your

 

"I never experienced a blackout or tunnel vision and I have pulled over 8 Gs on many occasions."

 

and 

 

"Whether you are flailing your arms or simply waking up everyone returns to normal and no, there is no fatigue affect afterwards."

 

and

 

"I never once in my career was briefed by a flight surgeon about not being able to function for minutes on end"

 

Well, here's Dr. James Whinnery, MD PhD, USN ... conducting a study (NADC 88100-60) of 500 pilots with G-LOC [attached]. His findings were, among many others: 

 

 

1. At about 7.5g, G-LOC occurs for most pilots when they are trained to use anti-G straining maneuvers. Without this, they G-LOC at only 5.7g. (pg 24)

2. The average ABSOLUTE incapacitation (blackout) length of time at G-LOC is about 12s. (pg 16)

3. The average RELATIVE incapacitation (confusion, inable to perform a task) length of time at G-LOC is an additional 15s to #2 above, for a total incapacitation of 27-28s. (pg 16)

4. The length of time that Gs must be pulled to accomplish blackout is 6.9s. (pg 41)

 

 

Seizures, which he observed are associated with G-LOC, indicate that there is a relationship to blacking out and cerebral injury or dysfunction:

 

(pg 34):

"This relationship, as shown in Figure 5, is extremely important for understanding G-LOC as it pertains to pilot safety. In addition to unconsciousness and subsequent incapacitation, myoclonic convulsions result when the ischemic/hypoxic insult to the CNS is sufficiently great. These myoclonic convulsions occur in a specific relationship to the unconsciousness and recovery. The myoclonic convulsions occur after onset of unconsciousness and follow the return of CNS blood flow, as determined by temporal artery doppler flow measurements."

 

I am not attempting to deny your experiences, but rather add some refinement to your observations as they relate to WW2 aviators.

Great research. Just remember my keywords: "majority of pilots". There were always exceptions.

 

In my time I heard of marine pilots experiencing Glocs doing benign things such as carrier breaks (4.5 gs turns) at the airfield prior to landings. This resulted in tragic mishaps.

 

For a while this was a mystery for flight surgeons that was eventually solved when they realized these pilots were doing intense physical workouts just prior to flying thus lowering their avg. blood pressure during flights which made them more susceptible to blackouts.

 

Even with the research you cited there is no statement that indicates any type of fatigue or the inability to function after 30 seconds max.

 

Although the "hook" technique was not known back then they did realize they needed to tense up to help aid in keeping blood flow to the brain. They knew the g-suit was not a guarantee for avoiding black outs so they were straining whenever pulling Gs.

 

I feel very confident that I can extrapolate my experiences to comment on WW2 pilot's experiences because with regards to this specific topic the physical forces were nearly identical namely, Gs, airframe limits and airspeed not to mention basic fighter tactics used.

 

Fighter dive tactics were not common and were used to make up for aircraft shortcomings, for example the P40 pilots were taught early on to take advantage of better dive and high-speed characteristics of their a/c when fighting certain japanese fighters along with the BF109. They had no choice because they would lose in a level dogfight.

 

Russian fighter pilots also learned from their aces to use diving runs (death from above) on their unsuspecting bf109 pilots but remember this was the initial tactic after that the 109 pilots (if they were good) would deny them another dive run.

 

I have no doubt that a/c designers were trying their best to counter g-loc issues but these g-loc issues were not the norm. I am pretty confident they were for that minority of inexperienced pilots who did not have the skill to avoid (sustained) high-g maneuvers or were physically weak and had low g-tolerances.

 

The biggest reason I feel I can extrapolate my experience of this topic to WW2 timeframe is because of the time-tested statement that all fighter pilots (all pilots really) know and that is speed is life.

 

To maintain a higher energy state than your opponent is to stay in control of the fight. Needlessly pulling Gs depletes the energy which in turn rapidly puts you at a disadvantage.

 

That is why you are always turning your plane at optimum levels which in WW2 performance envelopes would never induce Glocs not even for the weak pilots.

Edited January 16, 2018 by neostar

[neofightr2]

Quite honestly I think most pilots pulling enough G's to approach blackout in WW2, would realise they were overdoing it, when they start to lose colour, in their vision, or even experience tunnel vision, they would ease off on the stick.

 

I am confident, that they would get enough warning to ease off, that they would never experience GLOC unless they were intentionally trying to push for it.

Agreed. I remember experimenting at altitude seeing if I would see the signs of approaching g-loc. It was tough because all I was able to do was get a sleepy sensation. I was looking for tunnel visions but never saw it or color loss either. I suspect it was because I had always worn a tight fitting g-suit that kept the pressure high during maneuvers.

 

During my training days flying the T-2 and T-45 I was flying in that ww2 fighter envelope region a lot (220kts-300kits/4g-6gs).

I never came close to g-loc and I never heard of anyone else succombing to g-loc. And yes G-suits were a big factor but I was told time and again that G-suits were not a magic bullet and you had to be on your guard.

 

What I learned was with all the aerobatic flying we did we never had the energy to pull the sustained Gs to induce gloc. It was only when I started flying the hornet that I knew it was very possible to pass out if you weren't careful. But you really had to be trying to pull sustained Gs without letting up.

 

So unless you put yourself in a weakened state like the marines did with their pre-flight workouts you weren't going to induce a Gloc.

Now the F15 and F16 pilots with their high-speed intercepting runs might be more prone but again they had to work at it once they started that initial high-energy turn after the merge.

[Oubaas]

Having spent my entire adult life in real world military aviation before I retired, I'd just like to comment, for the purposes of guidance for this and other discussions.

 

If evil aliens came and surrounded the Earth with their spaceships, and then, using tractor beams, sucked up everything that we have that pertains to aviation, from books to actual aircraft to all the aerospace engineers, and we had to start over based only on the knowledge that the remaining people had in their memories, the various human governments would most likely meet in emergency session and declare that we had to reestablish aviation immediately and decide who they'd consult.

 

If they then decided to base the reestablishment of aviation on the memories and knowledge of people who had been aviators at some point before the aliens came, I wouldn't have a problem with that.

 

If, on the other hand, they decided to reestablish aviation based on input from the flight sim community, I'd never board an aircraft again.

 

This is not meant as an insult to flight simmers. It's just a thought exercise to put things into perspective as the arguments rage on.

Edited January 16, 2018 by Oubaas

[unreasonable]

In that scenario, I would put my faith in people who had the capability to become competent aerospace engineers.  Whether you are more likely to find that characteristic somewhere in the community of aviators or in the community of flight simmers is an interesting question: I do not find the answer at all obvious.

 

While your post is not an insult to the flight sim community, it is an oblique argument from authority, and as such not useful or helpful and should not be used as guidance by anyone.  After all, when we have discussions about flying topics even the RL pilots often cannot agree.  The arguments have to stand on their logical merits and evidentiary support, not on the claims to expertise of those making their case.

 

edited due to "Tiredness of the Poster":

Edited January 16, 2018 by unreasonable

[Oubaas]

In that scenario, I would put my faith in people who had the capability to become competent aerospace engineers.  Whether you are more likely to find that characteristic somewhere in the community of aviators or in the community of flight simmers is an interesting question: I do not find the answer at all obvious.

 

While your post is not an insult to the flight sim community, it is an oblique argument from authority, and as such not useful or helpful and should not be used as guidance by anyone.  After all, when we have discussions about flying topics even the RL pilots often cannot agree.  The arguments have to stand on their logical merits and evidentiary support, not on the claims to expertise of those making their case.

 

edited due to "Tiredness of the Poster":

 

If that was the case, we could choose flight instructors from the ranks of people who, based on aptitude tests, showed the greatest potential to become flight instructors, instead of choosing them from among experienced aviators.

[unreasonable]

The point is that  "the reestablishment of aviation" after your alien sucking scenario depends on a great deal more than just the memories of people who had been aviators.  Similarly, resolving just about any question about WW2 aviation discussed on this forum, even including the subjective experience of what it was like to fly WW2 warbirds in combat, is something that depends on a great deal more than recent personal flying experience. 

 

That does not mean that pilot's experiences are not useful or insightful: of course the rest of us have to take them into account. But when a pilot makes a claim about WW2 aviation, such as "Fighter dive tactics were not common and were used to make up for aircraft shortcomings,..." he is making a historical claim.  He gets no additional weight for this claim by virtue of his aviation experience.  In that particular case I am not at all sure that he is right: when the RAF were operating cross channel in 1941-43, diving attacks by 109s in Gruppe or JG strength were commonplace, according to my reading of the contemporary accounts. Whether those led to risk of black-outs or not I am still unsure despite this interesting thread. That is a medical issue. neostar says it never happened to him and gives reasons: Venturi posts some interesting medical research.  With luck everyone learns something.

 

And so it goes on. This is exactly how a forum is supposed to work. 

Edited January 16, 2018 by unreasonable

[FuriousMeow]

Oubass, they'd come up with the aviation equivalent of the Homer Simpson car.

Edited January 16, 2018 by FuriousMeow