Tiredness of the pilot (G factor)

[Blackhawk_FR]

Hello everybody, 

 

We all know (pilots or not) that G force affect physically the pilot. 

The thing is, in that game, after a G lock you just have to wait few seconds to recover, and then you continue the flight like nothing happened. Which is of course impossible.

The idea would be to see the pilot getting slowly but surely more and more tired if he pull too much G. After a moment, he should be unable to pull hard turns and sustain another hard and long dogfight. 

Btw, WWII pilots had not anti G flight suits.

 

I'm posting this firstly to know if dev already talked about it. Could it be possible to implement that in the game?

It would be so much interesting... 

 

I'm also looking for memories of WWII pilots talking about it. My experience of G force is only based on aerobatics flights, which is quite different: we take higher G (positive and negative), but we don't have to sustain it for more than few seconds (maximum 5-6 seconds, which is enough to get a black out btw). And the average duration of the flight is 15 minuts. 

Edited January 7, 2018 by F/JG300_Faucon

[Jade_Monkey]

Personally, I'd rather not see that simulated in IL2.

[Willy__]

Why not ? The lack of strenght to pull the elevator is modeled, why not tiredness because of pulling high-G's ?

[=gRiJ=Roman-]

How? What do you have in mind?

Maybe, making the controls less responsive or clumsy for some seconds?

[Willy__]

I'd like to know: after pulling high-G's, and possible after a few blackouts, does the pilot enter into "blackout mode" more easily than before ? I mean IRL offcourse.

[Pail]

I could see it making VR users feel more queasy.......

 

But for everyone else it could possibly feel a bit 'gamey' and annoying because you only really have visual cues to make sense of/experience it....

 

I have made the point before that the I-16 doesn't really model the affects on the pilot of being in an open cockpit at high altitude in -20 degrees but that is obviously only because I-16 pilots are superhuman.

[Blackhawk_FR]

I'd like to know: after pulling high-G's, and possible after a few blackouts, does the pilot enter into "blackout mode" more easily than before ? I mean IRL offcourse.

 

From my experience, and what I know from other pilots, after one black out (even a short one), you are already less effective as before, less precision and strenght. 

But there is a step between the grey/black vision, and the black out, or G lock (you loose your conscience for few seconds). That's why if you manage your Gs and don't go further black vision, you can continue to pull your Gs (you'll just get more or less tired after a moment, depending on your physical strenght).

 

G force is like running a sprint. If you hold your sprint, you'll fall after a moment. If you make a hard sprint for 10sec, then recover, you can make another one, etc etc...

 

 

 

 

How? What do you have in mind? Maybe, making the controls less responsive or clumsy for some seconds?

 

 

Exacly, and after a real black out, should be more than few seconds. It takes time to fully recover from a black out.

 

Obviously, some pilots during WWII were shot down because of a G lock.

Edited January 7, 2018 by F/JG300_Faucon

[Willy__]

From my experience, and what I know from other pilots, after one black out (even a short one), you are already less effective as before, less precision and strenght. 

But there is a step between the grey/black vision, and the black out, or G lock (you loose your conscience for few seconds). That's why if you manage your Gs and don't go further black vision, you can continue to pull your Gs (you'll just get more or less tired after a moment, depending on your physical strenght).

 

G force is like running a sprint. If you hold your sprint, you'll fall after a moment. If you make a hard sprint for 10sec, then recover, you can make another one, etc etc...

 

 

Exacly, and after a real black out, should be more than few seconds. It takes time to fully recover from a black out.

 

I'm sure that some pilots during WWII, were shot down because of a G lock.

 

Interesting... Thanks for the asnwer!

 

 

 

I have made the point before that the I-16 doesn't really model the affects on the pilot of being in an open cockpit at high altitude in -20 degrees but that is obviously only because I-16 pilots are superhuman.

 

 

The pilots would use adequate clothing, and besides, you rarely see i16s at high altiture in the mp scene.

 

 

 

About the G-Lock.... Too bad we dont have it ingame 

[Blackhawk_FR]

About the G-Lock.... Too bad we dont have it ingame 

 

 

Actually you have it, and it feels like the real one. It starts by getting more and more blind with black vision, but you still can control your pilot, like IRL. But if at that moment, you dont stop pulling, your pilot loose conscience, and you can't control anything for few seconds, until he recover.

 

Problem is as I said, after the black out, the pilot still got all the strenght he had, which is not possible.

Edited January 7, 2018 by F/JG300_Faucon

[Willy__]

Actually you have it, and it feels like the real one. It starts by getting more and more blind with black vision, but you still can control your pilot, like IRL. But if at that moment, you dont stop pulling, your pilot loose conscience, and you can't control anything for few seconds, until he recover.   Problem is as I said, after the black out, the pilot still got all the strenght he had, which is not possible.

 

Just checked ingame, we dont have G-LOC, we do have blackouts, but while in the blackout you can still fully control the airplane. 

 

-edit-

 

What I meant by "while in blackout" is when the pilot vision ingame is completely blackened out, you cant see anything, but you can still fully control the plane.

Edited January 7, 2018 by 3./JG15_Staiger

[Pail]

 

 

The pilots would use adequate clothing, and besides, you rarely see i16s at high altiture in the mp scene.

 

It was mostly a joke. Did the Russians use electrically warmed clothing and very widely ? I'd reckon you would want some in an I-16......I could imagine being pretty stiff and cold and not being able to move your face....

 

....And as far as pilot effects.....it still makes me worry that it might be like an annoying 'stamina bar' situation.....or someone elses heavy breathing typee thing.....nah please don't......

[Guest deleted@134347]

this is tad amusing or LOL. People can't agree on the engine damage model, so let's introduce a pilot's head damage model. Before we can continue let's establish a baseline:

 

- red vs. blue

- Malnourished winter VVS pilots vs. the summer bread/milked/egged/ accidental VVS fatties

- Hartmanns raised on Bacon with cardio-vascular problems vs. blue marathon runners

- Last time the pilot got his physical eval

- Last time the pilot got his psych eval

- Allergies?

- blood pressure in high g environment?

- Did the pilots go through the Rocky training school (high altitude)?

- I don't know.. when was the last bowel movement?

- etc etc..

 

Let's just leave it at a 5-8 second black-out timer.

[Pail]

 

 

this is tad amusing or LOL.

 

...and I've run out of upvotes.

[Willy__]

While you are at it, lets remove the stiffness aswell, because... why not ? 

 

 

   

[Solmyr]

Some pilots died because of this tiredness in the short time as described above (because of conscience lose) and in the long time (because overall tiredness made them unable to face any situation anymore, even in normal (not fighting) conditions.

Tiredness was horrific during WW2 for fighter pilots.

Edited January 7, 2018 by Solmyr

[busdriver]

I'm okay with the way GLOC (G induced Loss Of Consciousness) is modeled. We are after all 1G Comfy Chair Fighter Pilots.

 

As moosya suggests, an individual's g tolerance is personal. When I attended USAF centrifuge training 30 years ago as a 29 y/o fighter pilot, I could pull a constant 6 g's without straining and without the use of my G-suit (plugged in but not allowed to inflate). The day before my training, two Aggressor pilots from Nellis AFB (after a night of partying in San Antonio) GLOC'd at 5 g's...they "went to sleep" and their bodies did the funky chicken flailing around in the cockpit. When they woke up, they had no clue as to what happened, only that they had an urgent need to get out so they could puke.

 

At the time the individual with the highest centrifuge recorded g tolerance was a woman. There was a humorous plaque on the wall showing her picture under 15 g's acceleration, and a cartoon of an elephant standing on a person's chest. IOW what it feels like to pull 15 g's.

Edited August 20, 2019 by busdriver

[Oubaas]

The point of any flight simulation is for the user to be the virtual pilot.

 

That being the case, I think that ALL physical impact should be modeled, with excruciating accuracy. Here's the idea...

 

To play the game, you have to have a complete flight physical, with the results notarized, and submit your results via your IL-2 account. Once they've been reviewed and accepted by the developer's flight surgeon, the game will be unlocked and you'll be able to play.

 

Your in-game performance will be directly and accurately affected by things such as your height and weight, age, resting heart rate, stressed heart rate, any pre-existing medical conditions, visual acuity, and so on and so forth.

 

Are you visually impaired? Well, the game won't render targets as well. Out of shape? You'll be fatigued to the point of inability to continue, reflected by in-sim performance, and have to return to base.

 

Not only would it make the game more realistic, it would provide motivation for players to get in shape and look after their health.

 

There should also be a feature, based on this system, that limits which aircraft you can fly if ergonomics would be affected by your condition.

 

"We're sorry. But according to your current state of health, you wouldn't fit in the cockpit of this aircraft. Please choose another aircraft."

 

Flight physicals for flight simmers. It's an idea whose time has come!

 

[Guest deleted@134347]

 

 

To play the game, you have to have a complete flight physical, with the results notarized, and submit your results via your IL-2 account.

 

 

 

I think half TAW players would orgasm if this became even a glimpse of reality.

[3./JG15_Kampf]

 

 

To play the game, you have to have a complete flight physical, with the results notarized, and submit your results via your IL-2 account

 Please, send the force test of your arms together so that you can know your strength to pull the aircraft's stick. Maybe your plane blocks the elevator at 400km / h or maybe 700km / h              Oh, I forgot. This has already been modeled.    

[Willy__]

They must be from the Very Victimized Society, when something goes against their favorites aircraft I guess its fine to troll and derail the topic... I wonder where is the FM/DM forum police now ?

 

Oh the double standards....

 

Edited January 7, 2018 by 3./JG15_Staiger

[216th_Jordan]

They must be from the Very Victimized Society, when something goes against their favorites aircraft I guess its fine to troll and derail the topic... I wonder where is the FM/DM forum police now ?

 

Oh the double standards....

 

Damn that must be some strong weeds you got there.

What are you even talking about?

 

On topic:

I'd very much like to see an exhaustion model (and G-LOC), devs said they wanted to do that, so maybe we see that sooner rather than later. Current AI has that modelled to some extent, novice pilots will wear out sooner, resulting in lesser tight turns.

[curiousGamblerr]

I simulate pilot fatigue with alcohol =P as the night goes on, I get worse!

Edited January 7, 2018 by 19//curiousGamblerr

[Willy__]

What are you even talking about?

 

Im talking about comments like the ones moosya and Oubaas did. 

 

I have no problem with some banter and fun when its not trolling, just like Mr Gamblerr did above. 

Edited January 7, 2018 by 3./JG15_Staiger

[GP*]

I'm okay with the way GLOC (G induced Loss Of Consciousness) is modeled. We are after all 1G Comfy Chair Fighter Pilots.

 

As moosya suggests, an individual's g tolerance is personal. When I attended USAF centrifuge training 30 years ago as a 31 y/o fighter pilot, I could pull a constant 6 g's without straining and without the use of my G-suit (plugged in but not allowed to inflate). The day before my training, two Aggressor pilots from Nellis AFB (after a night of partying in San Antonio) GLOC'd at 5 g's...they "went to sleep" and their bodies did the funky chicken flailing around in the cockpit. When they woke up, they had no clue as to what happened, only that they had an urgent need to get out so they could puke.

 

At the time the individual with the highest centrifuge recorded g tolerance was a woman. There was a humorous plaque on the wall showing her picture under 15 g's acceleration, and a cartoon of an elephant standing on a person's chest. IOW what it feels like to pull 15 g's.

I posted in the G6 vs La-5FN thread, but long story short I agree with this. Shack.

 

For those bringing G suits into the conversation, today’s best G suits only increase your tolerance by 1.5-2s. So for me pulling 9.5 Gs (doesn’t last long), it’s still about 7 just on me.

 

I’ve been in fights sustaining 6-7Gs nonstop for 4-5 minutes before, which, believe me, isn’t possible in this sim the way we fight. It’s exhausting and borderline miserable, but doable. After flying a 0.9-1.2 ASD, I’m definitely exhausted once I’ve landed and the adrenaline wears off, but pilots of today and pilots of yesteryear should be able to fight without losing significant combat capability.

 

I think another poster said it best — the fear here is that this would turn into some sort of G-health bar, which would honestly be terrible.

[Herne]

I blacked out 20 years ago in a glider, its the strangest thing. It was one of those days when the whole sky was going up, I'd been up for well over an hour, near the airfield at somewhere between 5 and 10000 feet, when the guy comes on the radio, and asks me to RTB. 

After a few clearing turns I went into a shallow spiral dive to keep my speed as i pulled the stick increasingly back further into my lap. I held a steady 5G turn for about 45 seconds. First of all your vision goes black and white, then the tunnel vision, which gets increasingly smaller until you can no longer see. At no point was I unconscious, I was very much aware  of my situation and I just gently eased back pressure on the stick, and immediately my vision started to come back in reverse order to how it went. I was actually quite euphoric about the whole thing, I was on a high for days.

I think the point is not all black outs are equal. They can go from full on funky chicken, to what I experienced. I didn't feel the slightest bit fatigued, but more like a kid who just got off a roller coaster and really wants to do it again.

 

Pilot Fatigue from maintaining high level of alert is far more probable in my mind than pulling a few G's here and there

[Ribbon]

The point of any flight simulation is for the user to be the virtual pilot.

 

That being the case, I think that ALL physical impact should be modeled, with excruciating accuracy. Here's the idea...

 

To play the game, you have to have a complete flight physical, with the results notarized, and submit your results via your IL-2 account. Once they've been reviewed and accepted by the developer's flight surgeon, the game will be unlocked and you'll be able to play.

 

Your in-game performance will be directly and accurately affected by things such as your height and weight, age, resting heart rate, stressed heart rate, any pre-existing medical conditions, visual acuity, and so on and so forth.

 

Are you visually impaired? Well, the game won't render targets as well. Out of shape? You'll be fatigued to the point of inability to continue, reflected by in-sim performance, and have to return to base.

 

Not only would it make the game more realistic, it would provide motivation for players to get in shape and look after their health.

 

There should also be a feature, based on this system, that limits which aircraft you can fly if ergonomics would be affected by your condition.

 

"We're sorry. But according to your current state of health, you wouldn't fit in the cockpit of this aircraft. Please choose another aircraft."

 

Flight physicals for flight simmers. It's an idea whose time has come!

 

Lol!

Yeah, where does it ends!

I see it as new players repellent.

Next will be thirst, hunger, toilet needs, wife, kids.... ;p

[Venturi]

Rise of Flight already models this... very well I might add?

Additionally, when wounded, it is modeled already in IL-2.

Why not add it in as I suspect stick loading is already calculated?

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

War thunder mechanic

[unreasonable]

Similar issue to the control responsiveness at high speeds: but which is more "gamey", people flying in game in ways that are physically impossible for actual humans to sustain, or a mechanic that reduces or alters the link between the players HOTAS and the in game cockpit controls?

 

I would prefer the latter, at least as an option for SP.  If MP people prefer to avoid it OK, but I am actually interested in the imaginative recreation of the pilot's experience rather than in a competition.

 

People have raised the objection that everyone is different, so would have different limits etc. True - but then every aircraft is also different, depending on engine wear, finish etc.  (This used to be modeled in RoF SP as well). No reason why a satisfactory average pilot cannot be modeled.

 

I think the idea of high Gs inflicting a "light wound" effect could work. It can wear off - but not completely - depending on how far into blackout/redout one goes. After one event the effect wears off fairly quickly and you will hardly notice the sustained difference, do it several times and the control responsiveness will be considerably reduced, permanently. Time to RTB for a rest. 

[Oubaas]

Im talking about comments like the ones moosya and Oubaas did. 

 

I have no problem with some banter and fun when its not trolling, just like Mr Gamblerr did above. 

 

Hmmm. So injecting a little humor into the discussion is trolling? Tell me, who or what was I trolling? As far as I know, I didn't have a particular target in mind when I posted that. I just thought it might cause some laughter, since we were discussing pilot fatigue, GLOC, and all that.

 

Perhaps, since the whole point of flying flight sims is fun, we shouldn't take things so seriously. It might be good to maintain a sense of humor and not see the posts of others as containing barbs that aren't there. Just a suggestion.

[neofightr2]

Hello everybody, 

 

We all know (pilots or not) that G force affect physically the pilot. 

The thing is, in that game, after a G lock you just have to wait few seconds to recover, and then you continue the flight like nothing happened. Which is of course impossible.

The idea would be to see the pilot getting slowly but surely more and more tired if he pull too much G. After a moment, he should be unable to pull hard turns and sustain another hard and long dogfight. 

Btw, WWII pilots had not anti G flight suits.

 

I'm posting this firstly to know if dev already talked about it. Could it be possible to implement that in the game?

It would be so much interesting... 

 

I'm also looking for memories of WWII pilots talking about it. My experience of G force is only based on aerobatics flights, which is quite different: we take higher G (positive and negative), but we don't have to sustain it for more than few seconds (maximum 5-6 seconds, which is enough to get a black out btw). And the average duration of the flight is 15 minuts. 

I am not sure where people get this idea of pulling Gs causing massive fatigue on a pilot.

 

I had several flights pulling 6gs+ during my BFM training flights in the F18 hornet and I never felt fatigued coming back no matter how many times I pulled Gs. Even in the training command where I had lots of aerobatic flights and out of control spin sessions I never felt fatigued, nauseous yes fatigued no.

 

Now it is possible to pass out especially if you happen to have low blood pressure(i.e. doing a gym workout before flying causes this) but it doesn't cause a pilot to all of a sudden become super tired.

 

I am not saying that you cant get mentally fatigued after a long stressful flight but when it comes to pulling Gs that is not a factor. I remember having the opposite issue after landing on a carrier at night and having my legs physically shaking from the stress and use during the constant braking while moving on the flight deck. But I was fully pumped and wired from all the adrenaline from the flight. Now an hour later after winding down, sure now fatigue sets in, but no way during flight because you are so pumped up full of adrenaline.

 

Also I had long flight sessions 8+hours with a couple of mid-air refuels (stressful) thrown in during my combat tour over Iraq and never felt fatigued during the flight. You could make an argument that if a WW2 pilot had several high-g encounters spanning several hours over multiple sorties in the same day maybe it could cause a long term fatigue effect in that given same day but I seriously doubt that you have have that many encounters in a single day.

Edited January 9, 2018 by neostar

[=362nd_FS=RoflSeal]

 

Btw, WWII pilots had not anti G flight suits.

 

Oh yes they did, and will be relevant in Operation Bodenplatte

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a955241.pdf

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 9, 2018 by RoflSeal

[ACG_Smokejumper]

Multiple real fighter pilots have now chimed in. I'm going to say I don't care for the idea and after their real world experience stories I like it less.

[Willy__]

Too bad, no chart or other hard proof... Historically we should dismmiss their opinions as anecdotes only...

[curiousGamblerr]

Too bad, no chart or other hard proof... Historically we should dismmiss their opinions as anecdotes only...

To bad you don't disco from this forum as often as you do in game. Stop trying to start trouble.

[busdriver]

Too bad, no chart or other hard proof... Historically we should dismmiss their opinions as anecdotes only...

 

LOL...careful my hero...somebody will take you seriously. But by all means don't believe a word I write, my wife says my eyes are dark brown for a reason. Requiem will verify that.

[[CPT]Crunch]

And the end result will be the training wheel flight model, where you can't stall or snap, because your pilot has limits.  The only practical way to put limits on 'your' behavior is by putting the restriction on the aircraft flight model, training wheels, yuck.  It's been tried before, until the resulting revolt does it in.

[Oubaas]

As someone mentioned above, drinking will impair your abilities over the course of an evening, and it's more fun than built-in limitations. There are, however, some drawbacks. Most notably the diuretic effect of the drinking. They didn't make the "P" key the one to push to pause the game for nothing.

[novicebutdeadly]

To be honest I didn't like the way it was implemented in the old il2,

In that it seemed to be linked to how much you pulled on the stick, as opposed to how many G's you actually pulled.

At least that's the way it appeared, when in a 109 (before I learnt to use the stab), I would black out at high speed trying to follow a Russian aircraft, I blacked out even though I wasn't able to follow the Russian, yet they didn't didn't black out (even though they would be pulling much higher G's).... leading me complain about the Russians pilots having "G-suits"... especially when I then got shot down.

But when I did learn to use the stab I could pull much much tighter turns before blacking out (because I wasn't pulling back as far on the stick) even though I logically was pulling much higher G's.....

 

From the point of view that both the Fw190 and BF109 had seats that were so designed to increase your resistance to GLOC (did any allied aircraft also have this??) I would like to see it introduced because it was an advantage that they had.

Understandably it's hard to model how each individual pilot reacted to high G's, and also to correctly model the increase to G resistance that some pilots managed to develop.


 

[Blackhawk_FR]

 

 

I am not sure where people get this idea of pulling Gs causing massive fatigue on a pilot.

 

I'm talking about what happen after black outs, no Gs pulling only   As I said if you manage to pull your G without having a black out, you can last long like this, with some training.

 

To summary again my idea, there are some planes you can pull very high G due to the maneuverability at high speed (Yak, Spitfire for example), and so get a G lock if you are not careful. After that, the pilot should loose a bit, more or less (hard to define, I know), of his efficiency in combat.

 

 

As you're talking about your interesting fighter experience, I'm wondering: How was the physical / G training of WWII pilots, compared to nowadays fighters pilots? Did they had centrifuge trainings?