Any rumours of a Griffon?

[MiloMorai]

This is an entertaining read, http://users.atw.hu/kurfurst/articles/MW_KvsXIV.htm

 

Enjoy.

[JV69badatflyski]

 

Mark XIVs Total Delivered by end of month - Number delivered that month

 

1943 : 18 18

01-44 : 30 12

02-44 : 45 15

03-44 : 50 05

04-44 : 56 06

05-44 : 68 12

06-44 : 101 33

07-44 : 129 28

08-44 : 151 22

09-44 : 185 34

10-44 : 245 60

11-44 : 300 55

12-44 : 341 41

01-45 : 399 58

02-45 : 511 112

03-45 : 648 137

04-45 : 743 95

05-45 : 815 72

06-45 : 844 29

07-45 : 873 29

08-45 : 891 18

09-45 : 898 7

10-45 : 904 6

11-45 : 911 7 

 

As for how rare the

 

As far as XIVs go, and how slowly they were deployed..As of 18th May 1944, Spitfires with Sqn's:

MK XIV 61.

 

Now as of the XIVs in total as of 14 December 1944, there were 120 in operationally fit Sqns. This also include Squadron reserves as the RAF practice was to have 20-22 aircraft per Squadron, but only 12 flying at the time, the rest were spares. That basically gives you about 6 Squadrons with 20 planes present in each, but only about 72 actually flying of these in the best case.

 

 

 

 

 

Kurf,

Your numbers for production and delivered are slightly off but not much.

i've got as number for Assigned to Squadrons on the 20mai44,  43 airframes (Assigned does NOT Mean Operationnal), so your 61 are way too optimistic.

 

 

 

 

Actually, by December 1944, there were also two Tactical Recce units, namely 2 and 430(Canadian) Sqns equipped with F.R Mk. XIVs, as well as 41, 130, 350, 610 and 402(Canadian) sqns. Contrary to some opinions, these Tac R units were just as ready to engage in air-to-air combat as the fighter squadrons: to leave them out of Spitfire XIV strength returns is disingenuous.

There were more than just those 2, but the number of allowed airframes isn't really significant.

Those weren't actually FR Marks but designed as MK14E in the Spitfire Production List.

It wasn't even worth the effort of making a graph for the Mk14E:

 

 

No FR was operationnal until end Feb45.

 

NZTyphoon: Telling how much airframes were build doesn't mean a thing, that's the same excuse used for the 262 for like almost 20years now.

Build doesn't mean assigned to Squadron and Assigned to squadron also doesn't mean operationnal.

Taking the numbers from the analyze of each airframe of the Mark14 Version (MK14/MK14E/FR14/FR14E) shows really great differences between the reality and the wishfull expectations of any aircraft type fanatics (it works on both sides! i assume, i'm a wurger-whinny ) That was the reason i created a time line for every airframe build and categorized it. Just because the data was available and complete and also because i was curious.

 

on the 31dec44, that was the global situation since the production start (here Mk14):

 

 

199 Airframes in delivery status (getting equippement installed after production) or in Repair (Maintenance units) I used the same param for both to keep it simple.

121 Airframes assigned to Squadrons ( Take75% availability rate as an average)

41 airframes beeing Officially SoC (struck of Charge, unrepairable or plane lost)

 

And that how the Mk14 was assigned:

 

 

If you take a global look, you'll see that more than 50% of all Mk14/E/FR build never saw combat or even a military airfield in WW2, beeing send to India or directly deassembled.

 

To the "allied" standards, the Mark14 was a rare plane, the production numbers and operationnal numbers are small compared to others Spit Marks or even to Poney's and Bolts.

 

Now, should it be included? That's the Devloppers decision...

 

 

 

 

 

[HagarTheHorrible]

This is all getting a bit silly, nice charts and graphs though.

 

The Luftwaffe was a rarity on the Western front by the end of 44, early 45, does that mean we don't include them ?

 

It's all very well people quoting production figures but it ignores distribution of Luftwaffe resources to different theatres and roles not to mention relative levels of attrition and wastage

[NZTyphoon]

NZTyphoon: Telling how much airframes were build doesn't mean a thing, that's the same excuse used for the 262 for like almost 20years now.

Build doesn't mean assigned to Squadron and Assigned to squadron also doesn't mean operationnal.

 

If you take a global look, you'll see that more than 50% of all Mk14/E/FR build never saw combat or even a military airfield in WW2, beeing send to India or directly deassembled.

 

 

JV69badatflyski, while I appreciate your hard work, you've completely missed the main points of what I had written: namely, that there were unsubstantiated claims being made that the Griffon 65 in the Spitfire XIV was unreliable, and that there were only 5 operational 2 TAF squadrons using the Spitfire XIV. I also made the point that getting the Spitfire XIV into production wasn't like turning on a tap. That some 900 XIVs were built by war's end, in spite of needing to fulfill other production commitments, was a bit of an achievement by Supermarine, regardless  of what happened to those XIVs that were built.

 

By reading the ORBs, you would realize that once a Spitfire XIV entered squadron service in 2 TAF during WW 2, the chances were extremely good that it saw operational service, rather than languishing in a hanger.

 

41 Sqn ORB Dec 44.pdf

 

Nor did I state, or even imply, that all Spitfire XIVs reached operational service, while I also commented about XIVs being sent to SEAC: thus, you were making a moot point.

[Royal_Flight]

The Luftwaffe was a rarity on the Western front by the end of 44, early 45, does that mean we don't include them ?

 

I think you've just solved this argument for all time.

[HBPencil]

Anyway, to answer the OP's question: no, the devs have made no suggestion that they plan to include the XIV or any other Griffon Spit. Nor are there any "rumours" of them doing so.
Which is not say it might not appear in the game one day but if the devs did decide to do that it'll be way into the future, which is hardly surprising given that BoBP has only just been announced.

[Field-Ops]

Anyway, to answer the OP's question: no, the devs have made no suggestion that they plan to include the XIV or any other Griffon Spit. Nor are there any "rumours" of them doing so.

Which is not say it might not appear in the game one day but if the devs did decide to do that it'll be way into the future, which is hardly surprising given that BoBP has only just been announced.

Yea, the speculation is basically a year ahead of time. The last two extra collector planes came in on the tail end of Kuban development, and they were not certain to come out. The speculation of the Griffon is along the same lines in that people want another two collectors at the tail end of Bodenplatte. I for one wouldnt expect the trend to stay especially as Kuban was delayed for a bunch of small reasons (the two collectors planes no doubt having their toll). Its just fun, but pushy, speculation at this point I feel. 

[=X51=VC_]

It was not my intention to be pushy although being new to the series I didn't realise at the time the length of the development cycles in BoX (I expected if something is on pre-order it would be at most a few months, not announced years in advance). In any case, I consider this speculation less pushy than various talk of zeroes and carriers

[unreasonable]

There is Zero chance of carriers - at least any time soon: perhaps Midway into the next decade.  Despite all the aleutians to it on the forum. 

Edited January 20, 2018 by unreasonable

[Venturi]

Lol

[BlitzPig_EL]

There is Zero chance of carriers - at least any time soon: perhaps Midway into the next decade.  Despite all the aleutians to it on the forum. 

 

Well played sir, well played.

[ZachariasX]

There is Zero chance of carriers - at least any time soon: perhaps Midway into the next decade.  Despite all the aleutians to it on the forum. 

Now that is conversation, isn‘t it?

[Panthera]

I'd suggest adding the Mk.XIV with the following unlockable mods:

 

- E wing (2x 20mm + 2x .50 cal)

- clipped E wing 

- bubble canopy

- +21 lbs/sq.in. boost

- K-14 Gyro sight

 

The std. being a razorback with full C type wing and +18 boost and std. reflector sight, Server hosts can then decide what mods they would like to make available.

Edited February 9, 2018 by Panthera

[=X51=VC_]

Nice idea. We have precedent for engine and weapon mode but not for whole wing and fuselage mods though.

[EAF19_Marsh]

Can we get finished Kuban first, followed by the IX? Sorry to be boring, but baby-steps and all that.

 

The 'spares' issue has come up before, BTW: apparently half of Spitfire XIVs were 'spares (don't count); none of the K-4s were 'spares (do count). And thus is history twisted...

[Panthera]

Would just be nice to finally have a sim with the Spitfire XIV included, and since it was at bodenplatte this is the perfect opportunity. Certainly makes more sense than the Mk.IX imo, esp. since the German side gets the Me262.

[Kurfurst]

Would just be nice to finally have a sim with the Spitfire XIV included, and since it was at bodenplatte this is the perfect opportunity. Certainly makes more sense than the Mk.IX imo, esp. since the German side gets the Me262.

It makes as much sense IMO as having a Westland Whirlwind before having the Hawker Hurricane for a BoB scenario just because the former has the looks and that small band of loud historical revisionists for vonal support, because hey, it wasn’t rare at all and Peregrines were perfectly servicable engines too.

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

Nice idea. We have precedent for engine and weapon mode but not for whole wing and fuselage mods though.

One fuselage mod I can think of is the improvised gunner position in the IL-2 1942... Besides the change in the 3D model, it has a 40 km/h penalty and the added weight of 130 Kg. So that one does significantly change the FM of the plane.

 

Black six mentioned the Mk XVI as a modification of the Mk IX so who knows, maybe we could get a bubble canopy mod making it effectively a XVI? (I know it wouldn't be as good as a XIV but well).

 

Maybe we can get the XIV in the future as an extra collector, but seems like the Typhoon is a more requested plane for the "after BoBP" collector planes.

[ShamrockOneFive]

One fuselage mod I can think of is the improvised gunner position in the IL-2 1942... Besides the change in the 3D model, it has a 40 km/h penalty and the added weight of 130 Kg. So that one does significantly change the FM of the plane.

 

Black six mentioned the Mk XVI as a modification of the Mk IX so who knows, maybe we could get a bubble canopy mod making it effectively a XVI? (I know it wouldn't be as good as a XIV but well).

 

Maybe we can get the XIV in the future as an extra collector, but seems like the Typhoon is a more requested plane for the "after BoBP" collector planes.

 

Oooh he did? Where was that? That'd be interesting because on the face of it the Spitfire XVI and the IX are basically the same aircraft. The Merlin 266 is supposed to be the equal of the Merlin 66 although some pilots on operations complained in mixed formations that the Spitfire IX Merlin 66 equipped fighters seemed to perform better.

 

That said the XVI went through some additional development and by March(ish) you start seeing the XVI with the cut down rear fuselage and bubble canopy variant. It's certainly striking and a very cool Spitfire design.

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

Oooh he did? Where was that? That'd be interesting because on the face of it the Spitfire XVI and the IX are basically the same aircraft. The Merlin 266 is supposed to be the equal of the Merlin 66 although some pilots on operations complained in mixed formations that the Spitfire IX Merlin 66 equipped fighters seemed to perform better.

 

That said the XVI went through some additional development and by March(ish) you start seeing the XVI with the cut down rear fuselage and bubble canopy variant. It's certainly striking and a very cool Spitfire design.

 

I think he was meaning the IRL plane rather than the in game plane. So I wouldn't know for sure if he meant we would have the XVI as modification. Only that the XVI can be considered a modification of the IX so their units could be used for IXs for an ingame campaign perspective I think.

 

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/32255-discussion-bodenplatte-flying-circus-and-tank-crew-announcem/?p=533021

 

 

 

According to this publication,they did. 1./KG51, 2./KG51, 3./KG51

 

https://books.google...q=2kg51&f=false

Stab./KG 51, I./KG 51 and II./KG 51 had Me 262 A-2s on 01.01.1945

 

Why IL-2 Sturmovik: Battle of Bodenplatte has no Founder Bar anymore??? Missing in Action???

It will be ready later

 

Not sure about the Spit 9 for Winter 44/45.

126 Wing, 39 Reece Wing, 131 Wing, 132 Wing, 135 Wing, 145 Wing, 35 Reece Wing. Also 127 Wing had Spitfire XVIs - submodification of Spit IX

Edited February 10, 2018 by -=PHX=-SuperEtendard

[ShamrockOneFive]

I think he was meaning the IRL plane rather than the in game plane. So I wouldn't know for sure if he meant we would have the XVI as modification. Only that the XVI can be considered a modification of the IX so their units could be used for IXs in game for an ingame campaign perspective I think.

 

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/32255-discussion-bodenplatte-flying-circus-and-tank-crew-announcem/?p=533021

 

Ooohh... ok. He was just trying to explain.

 

As far as Bodenplatte's Career mode is concerned I'm sure he'll be including units that had both Spitfire IX and Spitfire XVI (which started to show up in December) because its the same plane essentially. You wouldn't be able to tell unless you looked REALLY closely at the cowling in the December 1944 timeframe. They are, for all purposes here, the same. By March that starts to change.

[Panthera]

It makes as much sense IMO as having a Westland Whirlwind before having the Hawker Hurricane for a BoB scenario just because the former has the looks and that small band of loud historical revisionists for vonal support, because hey, it wasn’t rare at all and Peregrines were perfectly servicable engines too.

Oh come on...

 

I'm all for the K-4 with a 1.98ata mod as well, which I'd consider a serious adversary.

Edited February 10, 2018 by Panthera

[Kurfurst]

I am talking about priorities. The devs have finite resources. Common planes like the IX and Typhoon first, then the more exotic ones like the XIV, Meteor etc as collector planes. There are enough exotic aircraft there already (262, Tempest, P-38L).

[GP*]

I'd suggest adding the Mk.XIV with the following unlockable mods:

 

- E wing (2x 20mm + 2x .50 cal)

- clipped E wing

- bubble canopy

- +21 lbs/sq.in. boost

- K-14 Gyro sight

 

The std. being a razorback with full C type wing and +18 boost and std. reflector sight, Server hosts can then decide what mods they would like to make available.

“unlockable” — that word should be forever banned from this forum!

[Panthera]

“unlockable” — that word should be forever banned from this forum!

 

unlockable as in = unlockable by the server hosts.

[Panthera]

I am talking about priorities. The devs have finite resources. Common planes like the IX and Typhoon first, then the more exotic ones like the XIV, Meteor etc as collector planes. There are enough exotic aircraft there already (262, Tempest, P-38L).

 

Well I wouldn't really consider the Spitfire XIV anymore exotic than the German aircraft we're getting. Also what's the point of adding the IX first? The Mk.IX is just gonna end up turning circles waiting for someone to attack it as it can't catch anything...

 

Nah, since we're getting some really damn fast exotic German aircraft I'd say a fast Spitfire is needed too.

 

As for the Meteor, now you've got to be joking.... the Meteor saw no action against German aircraft (and thus shouldn't even be a collectable), where'as by comparison the Spitfire Mk.XIV saw plenty.

Edited February 10, 2018 by Panthera

[=362nd_FS=RoflSeal]

Well I wouldn't really consider the Spitfire XIV anymore exotic than the German aircraft we're getting. Also what's the point of adding the IX first? The Mk.IX is just gonna end up turning circles waiting for someone to attack it as it can't catch anything...

 

Nah, since we're getting some really damn fast exotic German aircraft I'd say a fast Spitfire is needed too.

 

As for the Meteor, now you've got to be joking.... the Meteor saw no action against German aircraft (and thus shouldn't even be a collectable), where'as by comparison the Spitfire Mk.XIV saw plenty.

I can imagine Mk XIV being a collectable only aircraft like Yak-1b, La-5FN, G-6 down the line, along with other late war aircraft (P-47M, Ar-234 for example)

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

Nah, since we're getting some really damn fast exotic German aircraft I'd say a fast Spitfire is needed too.

 

Maybe we could get 150 octane fuel for the Spit as a mod? With +25 boost it would have almost the same speed at low altitude than a +18 boost Mk XIV.

 

[unreasonable]

Well I wouldn't really consider the Spitfire XIV anymore exotic than the German aircraft we're getting. Also what's the point of adding the IX first? The Mk.IX is just gonna end up turning circles waiting for someone to attack it as it can't catch anything...

 

Nah, since we're getting some really damn fast exotic German aircraft I'd say a fast Spitfire is needed too.

 

As for the Meteor, now you've got to be joking.... the Meteor saw no action against German aircraft (and thus shouldn't even be a collectable), where'as by comparison the Spitfire Mk.XIV saw plenty.

 

I agree that the Mk XIV was not exotic at all, but the point about the Mk IX in this time frame and 2nd TAF is ground attack with bombs, which is what they would have spent most of their time doing.  Every plane set needs a ground attack component for each nationality: there is more to life than dog-fighting.  While I would prefer the Typhoon for this (rockets!) the Spitfire Mk IX can perform this role. 

[Panthera]

Maybe we could get 150 octane fuel for the Spit as a mod? With +25 boost it would have almost the same speed at low altitude than a +18 boost Mk XIV.

 

 

But was +25 lbs/sq.in. boost at all used by Mk.IX squadrons at this time?  If not I still would prefer the Mk.XIV as it was actually used in some numbers during Bodenplatte.

I agree that the Mk XIV was not exotic at all, but the point about the Mk IX in this time frame and 2nd TAF is ground attack with bombs, which is what they would have spent most of their time doing.  Every plane set needs a ground attack component for each nationality: there is more to life than dog-fighting.  While I would prefer the Typhoon for this (rockets!) the Spitfire Mk IX can perform this role. 

 

The Tempest can perform this role much better than the Mk.IX:

 

 

In short I really don't understand the Mk.IX being added before the Mk.XIV, esp. considering we're getting 109K-4's, Dora-9's & Me262's, all of which were state of the art at the time.

Edited February 11, 2018 by Panthera

[unreasonable]

IIRC the reason given for Mk IX was simply that the team had the documentation they wanted.   Ground attack for Tempest is certainly possible, they did do it, but in the context of a Tempest plus Spitfire IX mix I would think that you would cover ground attack Spit IXs (or Typhoons which really was the main ground attack workhorse) with Tempests, not vice versa. And cover the whole lot with Spitfire XIV.

 

As per the photo you show, where is it from? Google shows no matches. It may be post war:  I do not have much in the way of British plane books, but wiki says bombs OK, but:

 

• 8 × 3 in (76.2 mm) RP-3 rockets (post-Second World War)

 

So useful for the Allies vs Soviet Central Germany mid 1945 scenario.  

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

But was +25 lbs/sq.in. boost at all used by Mk.IX squadrons at this time? If not I still would prefer the Mk.XIV as it was actually used in some numbers during Bodenplatte.

 

 

The Tempest can perform this role much better than the Mk.IX:

 

 

In short I really don't understand the Mk.IX being added before the Mk.XIV, esp. considering we're getting 109K-4's, Dora-9's & Me262's, all of which were state of the art at the time.

Afaik it would have been used in higher quantities after Bodenplatte, that's why it would be a mod. But to be sure we would have to know how much time after January 1st do the devs want to cover.

 

In regards to the model choice, I think it's because it was the most common Spitfire variant, plus it's not that difficult to model from the Mk V in game. Similar to how the G-14 and A-8 were chosen, instead of say G-10 and A-9 (both less common than K-4 and D-9 in the attack at least according to the book posted by Panzerbar).

[ShamrockOneFive]

But was +25 lbs/sq.in. boost at all used by Mk.IX squadrons at this time?  If not I still would prefer the Mk.XIV as it was actually used in some numbers during Bodenplatte.

 

The Tempest can perform this role much better than the Mk.IX:

 

 

In short I really don't understand the Mk.IX being added before the Mk.XIV, esp. considering we're getting 109K-4's, Dora-9's & Me262's, all of which were state of the art at the time.

 

I would have made the same decision IMHO. The Mark IX is the fighter of the 2nd TAF at this time and it stays that way to the end of the war equipped with the most number of squadrons. The XIV is rarer (not rare) than the IX right to the end. I'm fully supportive of the idea that we might still yet see a Mark XIV as a Collector Plane in 12-16 months.

 

The IX as a workhorse flying just about every mission going in great numbers makes it the right candidate. I'm looking at scripted campaign possibilities and I can do without a lot of aircraft but the IX would be really hard to avoid.

 

There's also something to be said for the team trying to find easy ways to speed production. There are differences between the Mark V and the IX but fewer than the XIV and that helps speed development time. That was mentioned in the Q&A with Jason a while back.

[ZachariasX]

The Tempest can perform this role much better than the Mk.IX:

The Tempest didn't use rockets or bombs as loadouts during the war. When they were supposed to attack heavily defended targets (such as airfields) they were issued flights of rocket armed Typhoons against the Flak. What you should have as default loadout are the wing tanks that were kept on during the whole mission. They didn't add significant drag, so they basically jetisoned them only when shot ablaze by the Flak or when enngaging in a dogfight.

 

The Spit Mk.IX however used bombs all the time to attack any kind of tactical target.

 

The Tempest was by no means exotic in appearance, as it was the most aircraft to be encountered down low far behind the front. At least in the regions, where 2TAF was active. More in the south, the germans would mostly see American planes. The Spit Mk.IX was used closer to the front and conveniently ignored by the Luftwaffe, at least when they had the choice.

[Panthera]

Thanks for the corrections on the Tempest in regards to the ground attack role guys, I wasn't aware of that at all. I was under the illusion that the Tempest operated alongside the Typhoon in this role at least some of the time. 

 

I guess I will just have to hope for the Mk.XIV as a later addition, although I would've prefered it + the Typhoon over the Spitfire IX.

 

Btw, this is where the picture was from:

http://www.geocities.ws/grizzleh/tempestv.html

Edited February 11, 2018 by Panthera

[unreasonable]

Thanks for the corrections on the Tempest in regards to the ground attack role guys, I wasn't aware of that at all. I was under the illusion that the Tempest operated alongside the Typhoon in this role at least some of the time. 

 

I guess I will just have to hope for the Mk.XIV as a later addition, although I would've prefered it + the Typhoon over the Spitfire IX.

 

Btw, this is where the picture was from:

http://www.geocities.ws/grizzleh/tempestv.html

 

Tempests certainly did do ground attack against targets of opportunity, as this is better than flying back to base without expending your cannon ammo because, as usual, there is no GAF air opposition.  No different from any other fighter type roaming around Germany in the last months of the war.   I thought they occasionally used bombs too, but maybe not. The Typhoon and the Spit Mk IX and XVI (which is a Mk IX with a Packard Merlin engine) were the designated ground attack elements in 2nd TAF and would have been generally bomb armed.

 

Thanks for link - some nice pics. 

[Holtzauge]

I guess I will just have to hope for the Mk.XIV as a later addition, although I would've prefered it + the Typhoon over the Spitfire IX.

 

Me too! Only problem is the Mk XIV with high boost has it all: Speed, climb rate and turn performance: It would simply seal-club the opposition......

[unreasonable]

And look sexy while it is doing it.

[Panthera]

Me too! Only problem is the Mk XIV with high boost has it all: Speed, climb rate and turn performance: It would simply seal-club the opposition......

 

Except for the Me262 :D

 

Although I'd say the better high speed agility of the Dora would make it hard for the Mk.XIV to combat

[Holtzauge]

Except for the Me262 :D

 

Although I'd say the better high speed agility of the Dora would make it hard for the Mk.XIV to combat

 

But didn't the late MkXIV have geared tabs on the ailerons? IIRC then the Brits developed this very clever arrangement with a torsion bar coupling to the tab so at low q you basically moved the aileron directly but as q built up the higher aileron hinge moment meant the torsion bar twisted and stated to move the geared tab basically cutting of the control forces on a manageable level even at high q.

 

And the Me262? Well it could always run away when faced with a MkXIV I suppose......I mean what else could it do?

Edited February 11, 2018 by Holtzauge