Any rumours of a Griffon?

[ShamrockOneFive]

I wouldn't be surprised in the least if 1C added a Spit Mk. XIV, XVIII or even 21 at some point.

 

Well, probably not the 21. The question is, what are you going to give the Axis in return, the Spatz? Or maybe the Fw 190D-13? Ta 152?

...well, probably the 152H, at least that one saw service...but other than that?

 

Back a couple of pages ago I suggested going off and doing the Ar234. Limited use but was used around the time of Bodenplatte and its a bomber which people were asking for. However, its also a bomber with only a single cockpit position required. It wouldn't be a fighter v fighter release but that would be ok.

 

The Ta152H would be my next best guess in terms of being "easy" for the team to build from a previously existing airframe.

 

The FW190D-13 maybe is another option. That would be a very rare bird indeed.

[Lusekofte]

3 pages, when all this post required is a :  NO   

[PainGod85]

3 pages, when all this post required is a :  NO   

 

That...is not how a discussion works. You're supposed to give reasons for why your opinion is correct.

[FuriousMeow]

Back a couple of pages ago I suggested going off and doing the Ar234. Limited use but was used around the time of Bodenplatte and its a bomber which people were asking for. However, its also a bomber with only a single cockpit position required. It wouldn't be a fighter v fighter release but that would be ok.

 

The Ta152H would be my next best guess in terms of being "easy" for the team to build from a previously existing airframe.

 

The FW190D-13 maybe is another option. That would be a very rare bird indeed.

 

He-162

[=X51=VC_]

I wouldn't be surprised in the least if 1C added a Spit Mk. XIV, XVIII or even 21 at some point.

 

Well, probably not the 21. The question is, what are you going to give the Axis in return, the Spatz? Or maybe the Fw 190D-13? Ta 152?

...well, probably the 152H, at least that one saw service...but other than that?

 

The 21 would be overkill but the XIV and XVIII are not wonder weapons that completely outclass the regular end of war German props. The D9 could handle them fine, as a few have said in this thread already. All options for a German counterpart are to some extent "unicorns" so they're all equally valid in my opinion and we have at least 3 good options. Another jet makes thematic sense.

[ShamrockOneFive]

He-162

 

Any particular reason why?

 

It was sort of cool to have in IL-2: 1946 but I really found very limited use for it.

[Panthera]

Any particular reason why?

 

It was sort of cool to have in IL-2: 1946 but I really found very limited use for it.

 

An agile little fighter which actually turned out to be Eric Wrinkle Brown's favorite aircraft to fly in his free time.

[Gambit21]

Oh I remember back in the day of IL2-46, I used to have field day with any Allied opposition when'ever I managed to get on a server that allowed the Me262. It was an absolute slaughter, which probably why most servers, even late 44 to 1945 ones, didn't allow them.

 

Alsp deflection shooting with a 505 m/s gun aint so bad when your closing speed on average around 250+ km/h. Thats quite abit of extra velocity. But you'll see soon enough

 

I was there...you can avoid 262 attacks all day long if you know they're around...I've been on both sides of that one.

They're easy enough to avoid, and tough as hell to hit anything in that you're not able to sneak up on.

[Lusekofte]

Yes , you need to be smart and have fast reflexes in a 262, you can´t slow down , you need the speed . But I am sure some will master it. But for Bodenplatte with only fighters , I bet it is only going to be used as a bomber

[Gambit21]

Yes , you need to be smart and have fast reflexes in a 262, you can´t slow down , you need the speed . But I am sure some will master it. But for Bodenplatte with only fighters , I bet it is only going to be used as a bomber

 

It's like a knight on a horse using a lance...devastating but if you see it coming you simply move out of the way.

[BlitzPig_EL]

This is the problem with late war scenarios.

 

The Allies have a continuous stream of new models and updated models, and the Luftwaffe has...  paper napkin drawings that never reached anything like series production, and no fuel or well trained pilots for the ones that did get built.  Even if Germany somehow managed to hang on another six or so months, it was nothing but futility.   The Allies would have flooded the sky with B-29s, in addition to what the USAAF and RAF bomber forces already had, and would have had squadron level numbers of P-80 Shooting Stars, Meteors, P-82s, and on and on...

 

The Axis lost WW2 the day they started it, they just didn't know it yet.

Edited January 14, 2018 by BlitzPig_EL

[Gambit21]

The Axis lost WW2 the day they started it, they just didn't know it yet.

 

The Japanese did.

Hitler? Well certainly the day he attacked Russia...

[ShamrockOneFive]

An agile little fighter which actually turned out to be Eric Wrinkle Brown's favorite aircraft to fly in his free time.

 

That's cool and all but what would you use it for?

 

In single player mode there isn't a use in historical scenarios at all. Ar234 yes, Ta152H admittedly no. In multiplayer it would also probably be banned, limited, or unused. It has an even greater chance than the Me262 of that because at least with the 262 it can be used in a historical fast bomber setup.

 

I think it's cool but I don't think it's a good pairing. With IL-2 1946 it was a "sure, throw it in" sort of thing and I few it a bunch but its not worth it when there are other more operationally useful and even historically used types.

[EAF19_Marsh]

An agile little fighter which actually turned out to be Eric Wrinkle Brown's favorite aircraft to fly in his free time.

That's cool and all but what would you use it for?

 

 

It's service in JG1 suggest that many did not share his view, but then he was a vastly experienced test pilot flying ti in a benign environment; it had significant shortcomings for anyone piloting under wartime conditions, and its losses in a few weeks rather show what it was actually worth.

 

In single player mode there isn't a use in historical scenarios at all. Ar234 yes,

 

 

I agree, would be a much better choice.

[Panthera]

It's service in JG1 suggest that many did not share his view, but then he was a vastly experienced test pilot flying ti in a benign environment; it had significant shortcomings for anyone piloting under wartime conditions, and its losses in a few weeks rather show what it was actually worth.

 

It's losses in a few weeks reflects the condition the LW was in at that point, not what the fighter was worth. Remember only two were ever shot down, and that was upon landing. The design itself was sound.

[Feathered_IV]

That...is not how a discussion works. You're supposed to give reasons for why your opinion is correct.

Jason said no. The IX is easier with regards to references so he said they are going with that.

[JV69badatflyski]

Give the Reds the Mk14 and give the Blues an A-8 1.8Ata with the optionnal removal of the rear tank and the Rack,  let's have fun in a rolling scissors contest

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Give the Reds the Mk14 and give the Blues an A-8 1.8Ata with the optionnal removal of the rear tank and the Rack,  let's have fun in a rolling scissors contest

P-38 with Hydraulic Ailerons will shut all of you up.

[Lusekofte]

The Japanese did.

Hitler? Well certainly the day he attacked Russia...

I am pretty sure Hitlers paranoia had some truth in it, Stalin was building up , I do not think he was about to keep his non attack agreement for longer than a couple of years. The way I look at things, not being a fan of Nazis mind you, Scandinavia , Balkan, Poland, And a lot more would have been swollowed. 

P-38 with Hydraulic Ailerons will shut all of you up.

That plane was amazing in every way, the only two engined fighter that really was a fighter

[Royal_Flight]

Yes , you need to be smart and have fast reflexes in a 262, you can´t slow down , you need the speed . But I am sure some will master it. But for Bodenplatte with only fighters , I bet it is only going to be used as a bomber

That's certainly how I intend to use it.

Fast in, blaze across the map on the deck to hit the target and then (in theory) tear back across the lines before anyone can catch me.

The Ar 234 would also be excellent for this reason.

 

This is the problem with late war scenarios.

 

The Allies have a continuous stream of new models and updated models, and the Luftwaffe has... paper napkin drawings that never reached anything like series production, and no fuel or well trained pilots for the ones that did get built. Even if Germany somehow managed to hang on another six or so months, it was nothing but futility. The Allies would have flooded the sky with B-29s, in addition to what the USAAF and RAF bomber forces already had, and would have had squadron level numbers of P-80 Shooting Stars, Meteors, P-82s, and on and on...

 

The Axis lost WW2 the day they started it, they just didn't know it yet.

While this is true in terms of history, in the average multiplayer server the situation tends to balance itself out somewhat.

An equal number of aircraft of roughly similar abilities makes for some interesting sessions but is generally interesting and good fun, regardless of the semi-ahistorical nature of it.

We have 1941 missions where the Luftwaffe are outnumbered by highly-skilled VVS pilots who go on to decimate the ground targets, and I'm sure '44/'45 Europe will be fun with a Luftwaffe that isn't on its knees totally and starved of fuel.

In that light I'd be happy with a Ta 152 or similar, provided we don't cross right over into pure fantasy prototype territory with flying wings and cylindrical flying corkscrews (or whatever the Heinkel Lerche was meant to be).

 

The Gloster Meteor never fought the 262 but if it was included there would be multiple daily face-offs of the two and that could be great, and no more ahistorical than Fw 190s over Stalingrad.

 

So, within reason - I'm happy for a few interesting inclusions from potential unicorn territory just for the sake of it.

[Panthera]

That's cool and all but what would you use it for?

 

In single player mode there isn't a use in historical scenarios at all. Ar234 yes, Ta152H admittedly no. In multiplayer it would also probably be banned, limited, or unused. It has an even greater chance than the Me262 of that because at least with the 262 it can be used in a historical fast bomber setup.

 

I think it's cool but I don't think it's a good pairing. With IL-2 1946 it was a "sure, throw it in" sort of thing and I few it a bunch but its not worth it when there are other more operationally useful and even historically used types.

 

The Ta-152H saw operational use, so ofcourse there would be a use for it in historical scenarios. 

 

As for the Me262, historically it was used mostly in the interceptor role (even the A2's), the demand of it being a fighter bomber by Hitler only served to delay the introduction of the aircraft which in the end would end up mostly conducting intercepts anyway.

[FuriousMeow]

Any particular reason why?

 

It was sort of cool to have in IL-2: 1946 but I really found very limited use for it.

 

I like it, and it did sort of see combat. Just a neat little plane, wasn't a serious "needs to be done." I know it fell apart, poor construction and etc - still think it'd be a fun ride at some point if feasible.

[ShamrockOneFive]

The Ta-152H saw operational use, so ofcourse there would be a use for it in historical scenarios. 

 

As for the Me262, historically it was used mostly in the interceptor role (even the A2's), the demand of it being a fighter bomber by Hitler only served to delay the introduction of the aircraft which in the end would end up mostly conducting intercepts anyway.

 

I know about the Ta152H ... operational use would be extremely limited. Not really a Bodenplatte aircraft although I've made the case for it anyways.

 

You're not quite right about the 262. For Bodenplatte and surrounding time, most 9th AF and 2nd TAF units that met the 262 were meeting them in the fast bomber role. It's perhaps not surprising given those two air forces objectives.

 

I like it, and it did sort of see combat. Just a neat little plane, wasn't a serious "needs to be done." I know it fell apart, poor construction and etc - still think it'd be a fun ride at some point if feasible.

 

I understand Furious. It is a cool little plane to be sure.

[LukeFF]

 

 

the demand of it being a fighter bomber by Hitler only served to delay the introduction of the aircraft which in the end would end up mostly conducting intercepts anyway.

 

Hitler's demand for it to be a fighter-bomber had practically no delay on its entry into combat. Don't believe everything Galland wrote.

[ShamrockOneFive]

Hitler's demand for it to be a fighter-bomber had practically no delay on its entry into combat. Don't believe everything Galland wrote.

 

Another good point. It's one of those popular myths that won't die.

[EAF19_Marsh]

It's losses in a few weeks reflects the condition the LW was in at that point, not what the fighter was worth. Remember only two were ever shot down, and that was upon landing. The design itself was sound.

 

 

Not really, the rudder / eflux issue remained problematic and it killed 8 (10?) pilots, including several very experienced crews. The dorsal engine also seemed to suffer from blanking by the nose at any significant alpha  and slow speed (especially landing). According to Foryth's book, quite a few pilots posted to JG1 avoided flying it. On the other hand, some liked it.

 

Given the small number of combat missions flown, not surprising that only 2 were shot down.

 

Anyway, probably not the best choice for an additional aircraft.

[Panthera]

Hitler's demand for it to be a fighter-bomber had practically no delay on its entry into combat. Don't believe everything Galland wrote.

Well with lack of evidence to the contrary that's abit hard.

[Panthera]

Not really, the rudder / eflux issue remained problematic and it killed 8 (10?) pilots, including several very experienced crews. The dorsal engine also seemed to suffer from blanking by the nose at any significant alpha and slow speed (especially landing). According to Foryth's book, quite a few pilots posted to JG1 avoided flying it. On the other hand, some liked it.

 

Given the small number of combat missions flown, not surprising that only 2 were shot down.

 

Anyway, probably not the best choice for an additional aircraft.

Those problems were due to faults during construction AFAIK, not any inherent design flaw. The glue used was a weak point, and the aircraft required an experienced pilot as the operating speeds were far above any previous type, and combined with the light controls (roll, pitch & rudder) this could lead to structural failure if an inexperienced pilot was too violent with esp. the rudder. Being capable of 900+ kmh and having a relatively low wing loading for an aircraft operating at such speeds, it was theoretically easy to hit 9 G's, which I have my doubts the airframe could handle.

[Lusekofte]

There is reasonable to believe that the numbers of produced ME 262 and the numbers of operational ones is a reason for delays and not enough delivered. I really do not remember the numbers, they are easy to google, A huge number was destroyed on their way to operational units. Fuel was a big issue and on top of that their factories was bombed. So production went under ground in tunnels never really finnished when the war ended. Luftwaffes cocky believed the war would be won before the jet engine was finnished, they never supported the project until it was too late. Galland tried to distance himself from Nazis ,and his stories are colored by it. Like I and everyone else here would have done in those prewar times in Germany and early for that manner Galland was a happy man and content with what happened. I can understand that.

[Venturi]

Well with lack of evidence to the contrary that's abit hard.

 

Check out ww2aircraft.net's thread on this topic... don't go posting in there half-cocked, fair warning.

[LukeFF]

Well with lack of evidence to the contrary that's abit hard.

 

Manfred Boehme's book on JG7 covers the topic very thoroughly.

[Dakpilot]

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit14v109.html

 

Some good info on History and use of Spit Mk XIV, also a bit on Bodenplatte and luftwaffe production woes

 

about 100 pilot combat reports as well

 

I baffles me that some say it is too rare to be considered and then in the same breath suggest Ta-152, which never had more than 15 in service, and it's combat record is 7-10 (depending on source) kills, to 4 losses

 

although a very interesting and cool aircraft, it was never a series production aircraft and had zero impact, tactical or strategic

 

Cheers, Dakpilot

[ZachariasX]

Another good point. It's one of those popular myths that won't die.

 

Besides, for Bodenplatte you will have mostly recce Me-262, they had cameras / bombs fittet to them and they would fly treetop level to avoid radar detection. If they came in high up, all they would find are many, many fighter aircraft desperately trying to get a shot at them.

 

Thus, for the ones that believe adding a bomb rack at the expense of two cannons plus putting a nose wheel instead of a tail wheel takes two years, be it. But you get to see the "delayed" bomber. That one was ubiquitous enough to come up with the rat code (that formalized form of vulching). Fighter Me-262 covering Arados, that you will have at Remagen. First ever large scale jetfigher and jet bomber attacks.

 

And if you are really into Me-262 fighters, then you have to fly PR Spit (Edit: Griffon!!) and PR Mosquitos that were encountering 262's trying to figure out best way on how to shoot other (fighter) aircraft. Then later on JV44 of course. As for the rest.. let's say "sporadic" appearance.

Edited January 16, 2018 by ZachariasX

[EAF19_Marsh]

Manfred Boehme's book on JG7 covers the topic very thoroughly.

 

 

Totally puts this myth to rest, but sadly not read by the majority who continue to follow the popular line that it was all Hitler's fault. Boehme's conclusion based on very detailed research is that it was not ready for service, the issues were with engines and available air-frames as well as spares and crew. Though bomber / fighter debates certainly did exist, they were of limited real relevance.

 

Would really recommend this, it is an excellent work.

[Panthera]

 

 

I baffles me that some say it is too rare to be considered and then in the same breath suggest Ta-152, which never had more than 15 in service, and it's combat record is 7-10 (depending on source) kills, to 4 losses

 

although a very interesting and cool aircraft, it was never a series production aircraft and had zero impact, tactical or strategic

 

Cheers, Dakpilot

 

I don't think anyone ever claim the XIV was too rare? If so I missed it.

 

The Ta-152H I would love to see ingame though, even if that was indeed rare. Same goes for the He-162.

 

As for the Spitfire XIV, it's a necessity IMHO, esp. since we didn't get back in the old IL2 days. 

[Kurfurst]

I baffles me that some say it is too rare to be considered and then in the same breath suggest Ta-152, which never had more than 15 in service, and it's combat record is 7-10 (depending on source) kills, to 4 losses

 

Ta 152s were certainly rare indeed, hardly can be even considered to be in service, however to a lesser extent this still also applies to XIVs, which were also very rare and very slowly deployed into service. Part of the issue was probably the relative unreliability of the Griffons compared to the Merlins and the demand of Bomber Command for vast numbers of engines for the heavy bombers. 

[PainGod85]

Ta 152s were certainly rare indeed, hardly can be even considered to be in service, however to a lesser extent this still also applies to XIVs, which were also very rare and very slowly deployed into service. Part of the issue was probably the relative unreliability of the Griffons compared to the Merlins and the demand of Bomber Command for vast numbers of engines for the heavy bombers. 

 

What do bomber engines have to do with whether Griffon engined Spitfires flew over Germany? The British bigh three (Lancaster, Halifax, Stirling) all didn't use Griffons, and at that point in the war resources weren't really a bottleneck for the British anymore.

 

On the contrary, there were entire squadrons worth of Griffon Spitfires out and about, and they were even being uprated to +21 lb/in². Do you really think an engine design suffering from teething issues with its reliability would be uprated when your squadrons are already winning? Nope. They did that because by late '44 and into '45, all these initial issues had been either fixed or mitigated to such a degree that they weren't causing problems anymore.

[Royal_Flight]

Ta 152s were certainly rare indeed, hardly can be even considered to be in service, however to a lesser extent this still also applies to XIVs, which were also very rare and very slowly deployed into service. Part of the issue was probably the relative unreliability of the Griffons compared to the Merlins and the demand of Bomber Command for vast numbers of engines for the heavy bombers.

You can hardly make that claim, certainly not as a comparison between the in-service numbers of the Griffon Spitfire (introduced 1943) and the Ta 152 (introduced 1945).

The Spitfire mk XIV is basically the one everyone thinks about when they hear 'Griffon Spitfire', and it was the most numerous with about 970 produced, making up the mainstay of the 2nd Tactical Air Force's fighter strength. The mk XII was a transitional variant with around 100 examples and there was a Griffon-powered photorecon version, the PR mk XIX of which there were 225. I'd be keen to see a PR XIX in the sim as well.

In addition to all this, there was the Seafire XV (390) and XVII (200 or so) which both saw service during the war and I would like to see these included in BoX as well someday.

 

I can't find a figure for the total production of all Ta 152 variants, but as Dakpilot points out in his post above there were never more than 15 in service at any point.

 

Not that I wouldn't enjoy getting to see the Ta 152, but the Griffon-engined Spitfire was hardly rare or introduced slowly.

 

Further, the Griffon engine wasn't known for being particularly unreliable. It was known for producing most power below 20,000ft, but ''tis is because it was designed to a Royal Navy specification for a low-altitude high-power engine, as FAA fighters had no need to operate above that height.

Interestingly part of the requirement was for something reliable and easy to maintain.

 

The majority of Bomber Command's force including Lancasters, Halifaxes and Mosquitoes used Merlins, so it's not like there was a shortage of Griffons that were earmarked for the bomber campaign either, unless I misunderstood your last comment.

[LukeFF]

 

 

Ta 152s were certainly rare indeed, hardly can be even considered to be in service, however to a lesser extent this still also applies to XIVs, which were also very rare and very slowly deployed into service.

 

There were 5 fighter squadrons and a further 2 recce squadrons flying Spitfire XIVs on 1 January 1945 in the battle area covered by Operation Bodenplatte. Hardly an insignificant number.

[ShamrockOneFive]

And they were all forward deployed and in the thick of the action repeatedly. Not a rare sight by any means.