Questions on the Spitfire

[dburne]

Hey gang,

 

I am finally moving to the Spitfire for a PWCG campaign over Kuban, have been flying a Yak-1 Campaign in Stalingrad for the last few months.

 

I was already somewhat familiar with the Spit, and have been flying it free flight this morning with no big problem,  but have a couple of questions I am little perplexed on.

 

 From the Spitfire Operation Notes:

 

- Engine is equipped with an automatic fuel mixture control which maintains optimal mixture if mixture lever is set to the forward position. To use automatic mixture leaning to reduce fuel consumption during flight move the mixture lever to backward position.

 

I have the mixture moved to the forward position, but no matter where I move it if I happen to look at the GUI, tech tips always tell me to adjust mixture?

 

- The water radiator is operated manually, while the oil radiator is unadjustable.

 

​​I already had water rads on a lever , but I do not see any levers moving in cockpit when I move the lever?

 

Thanks for any tips to help me clear up on this. Really looking forward to this PWCG campaign over Kuban!

Edited January 5, 2018 by dburne

[Herne]

Hey gang,

 

I am finally moving to the Spitfire for a PWCG campaign over Kuban, have been flying a Yak-1 Campaign in Stalingrad for the last few months.

 

I was already somewhat familiar with the Spit, and have been flying it free flight this morning with no big problem,  but have a couple of questions I am little perplexed on.

 

 From the Spitfire Operation Notes:

 

- Engine is equipped with an automatic fuel mixture control which maintains optimal mixture if mixture lever is set to the forward position. To use automatic mixture leaning to reduce fuel consumption during flight move the mixture lever to backward position.

 

I have the mixture moved to the forward position, but no matter where I move it if I happen to look at the GUI, tech tips always tell me to adjust mixture?

 

- The water radiator is operated manually, while the oil radiator is unadjustable.

 

​​I already had water rads on a lever , but I do not see any levers moving in cockpit when I move the lever?

 

Thanks for any tips to help me clear up on this. Really looking forward to this PWCG campaign over Kuban!

 

Water radiator is a 5 step radiator I think. It happens to use the same binding as a BF110, but you will need to make sure it is mapped. Its different from all other allied planes in game IIRC

 

I don't think that I have ever adjusted the fuel mixture in the spit. I fly without the tech tips so will never have seen this notification

[dburne]

Water radiator is a 5 step radiator I think. It happens to use the same binding as a BF110, but you will need to make sure it is mapped. Its different from all other allied planes in game IIRC

 

I don't think that I have ever adjusted the fuel mixture in the spit. I fly without the tech tips so will never have seen this notification

 

Ah ok thanks, that must be it then on the water rads. Sounds like it is a different key mapping, I will check it out.

 

Yeah I usually don't fly with the GUI on either, but wanted to check it to see if I was doing things proper. May be just a bug, engine was certainly operating fine for the time I was flying it.

 

Thanks,

[ZachariasX]

For you purposes, set mixture to rich (back position).

 

The radiator has 6 positions:

 

0% all closed

20% (first notch forward) closed for engine cooling, open to heat the guns.

40% (second notch) guns heated, engine cooling and in least drag mode. You fly like this all the time, unless you are mistreating your aircraft.

60% more open

80% even more open, it gets really dragy here

100% all open. You can use that when diving on idle to cool down your abused engine.

 

Basically you use two settings, 40% all the time (stay faster than 200 mph) and 100% on the ground.

[dburne]

Water radiator is a 5 step radiator I think. It happens to use the same binding as a BF110, but you will need to make sure it is mapped. Its different from all other allied planes in game IIRC

 

 

Yep that was it, assigned to a couple buttons and all is well now, thanks again!

Now I can move on to my Campaign.

For you purposes, set mixture to rich (back position).

 

 

 

Thanks for the tips on rad settings!

 

Regarding mixture, I thought rich was forward position? At least that is what is shown in the cockpit?

[unreasonable]

The in cockpit control for the spitfire is the handle like a car brake handle on the left of the seat.  For some reason, even though it rotates around a pivot - in steps as described - we are not allowed to bind it to an axis so you have to bind it to two buttons, wasting the water radiator axis you have got used to using for the Yak. 

 

The notes on the mixture position are wrong - although the game is actually right: it got corrected but the notes did not.  Rich is back.  Weak is only for use on long distance cruise to save fuel. You need not worry about it - just set fully back and leave it.   (edit - not sure what you are looking at - the game cockpit notice also has rich as back.)

 

http://spitfiresite.com/2010/07/anatomy-of-spitfire-cockpit.html/03it_001

 

Other than that it is hugely enjoyable to fly - easily the most fun in the plane-set IMHO.

Edited January 5, 2018 by unreasonable

[dburne]

The in cockpit control for the spitfire is the handle like a car brake handle on the left of the seat.  For some reason, even though it rotates around a pivot - in steps as described - we are not allowed to bind it to an axis so you have to bind it to two buttons, wasting the water radiator axis you have got used to using for the Yak. 

 

The notes on the mixture position are wrong - although the game is actually right: it got corrected but the notes did not.  Rich is back.  Weak is only for use on long distance cruise to save fuel. You need not worry about it - just set fully back and leave it.  

 

http://spitfiresite.com/2010/07/anatomy-of-spitfire-cockpit.html/03it_001

 

Other than that it is hugely enjoyable to fly - easily the most fun in the plane-set IMHO.

 

Ok thanks, sounds like they need to correct the cockpit labelling on the mixture control though. I will make sure I set it to full back.

 

Edit - Nevermind, senior moment LOL. It was the operation notes I was thinking of, not in cockpit labeling. You are correct of course.

Edited January 5, 2018 by dburne

[dburne]

All right then, I think I have a handle on her now. What a wonderful flying bird!

 

Time to start my new PWCG campaign now.

Thanks again for all the help gang!

 

Also I took another look, with the mixture control full back that message to adjust mixture is gone from the techno chat.

Edited January 5, 2018 by dburne

[54th_Glitter_]

Regarding mixture is as others said before. If you forget about position of mixture control in the cockpit, just:

 

Mixture 100% (Auto)

Mixture 0% (Economic)

In between  (Manual)

 

Regarding radiator, usually 60-40% works fine in almost every scenario.

[ZachariasX]

Regarding mixture is as others said before. If you forget about position of mixture control in the cockpit, just:

 

Mixture 100% (Auto)

Mixture 0% (Economic)

In between  (Manual)

 

Regarding radiator, usually 60-40% works fine in almost every scenario.

There is no „middle position“ in the Spit. Just full back for „automatic rich“ and full forward for „automatic lean“.

 

For radiator, keep second notch (40%) and if you feel the engine is getting hot, fly faster. The Spit likes a fast and more shallow climb. She‘s a racer. That is her pedigree. And she likes going fast.

[54th_Glitter_]

Thank you! 

[senseispcc]

In the Spitfire the radiator is handled by a stick on the lower left side of the pilot seat.  If I am  not mistaken full forward is closed position.   

And is it perfectly done in the simulation. 

[unreasonable]

You are mistaken.     (Join the club of humans).  Forwards is fully open. You can check on the runway in external view - with each notch forwards you can see the radiator flaps at the rear of the radiators drop a few degrees.

 

But it is perfectly done - except I would have just liked to be able to use an axis. 

[ZachariasX]

 

 

But it is perfectly done - except I would have just liked to be able to use an axis.

 

For getting "middle positions" between the notches, like in the mixture lever?

[dburne]

Started my PWCG campaign in the Spit. Trying to get used to it's strengths and weaknesses, but I sure am loving it and the sound of that Merlin engine.

 

One thing I notice with it, the elevator trim is really sensitive, hard to make very fine adjustments as the wheel moves so fast with a button press.

[Herne]

I never really used the elevator trim in the spit, the DD about it a while back described it as <something>  neutral, i forget the word, but I think it means it goes pretty much where you point it  

[ZachariasX]

I never really used the elevator trim in the spit, the DD about it a while back described it as <something>  neutral, i forget the word, but I think it means it goes pretty much where you point it

 

It means that the Spit has less of a pitch up or pitch down tendency over the range of different airspeeds. Plus she requires comparably little force to move the elevator surfaces. This means little trim on the flettner is required for desired effect.

 

She‘s light on the pitch, but more avearge (good for her being a late 30‘s design) on aileron control. Some might say not harmonic in control due to that, but I had to try myself to say such.

[unreasonable]

For getting "middle positions" between the notches, like in the mixture lever?

 

No, silly, because it saves me from having to find another two whole buttons just for one control on one aeroplane, then remembering what they are, then remembering not to press them when I fly a Yak instead but use the axis.  I have an axis that actually looks like the Spitfire radiator controller, in the roughly same place relative to my hands as in the plane, with forwards = fully open: but I am not allowed to use it. Bah! Irrational. The Spitfire RL radiator control is not a set of buttons: it is a rotating stick. It is bizarre that I have to use buttons in game, when I can use a rotating stick for the Yak radiators.

 

The axis control can simply move the radiator between the fixed settings. 

 

This is obviously a conspiracy to nerf the Spitfire.

[dburne]

No, silly, because it saves me from having to find another two whole buttons just for one control on one aeroplane, then remembering what they are, then remembering not to press them when I fly a Yak instead but use the axis.  I have an axis that actually looks like the Spitfire radiator controller, in the roughly same place relative to my hands as in the plane, with forwards = fully open: but I am not allowed to use it. Bah! Irrational. The Spitfire RL radiator control is not a set of buttons: it is a rotating stick. It is bizarre that I have to use buttons in game, when I can use a rotating stick for the Yak radiators.

 

The axis control can simply move the radiator between the fixed settings. 

 

This is obviously a conspiracy to nerf the Spitfire.

 

I certainly would have preferred to have it on an axis like I have on the Yak.

[ZachariasX]

I certainly would have preferred to have it on an axis like I have on the Yak.

Ideally, it should be an axis plus a button toggles for increase or decrease. This way, you could map what you have as controls.

[Willy__]

No, silly, because it saves me from having to find another two whole buttons just for one control on one aeroplane, then remembering what they are, then remembering not to press them when I fly a Yak instead but use the axis.  I have an axis that actually looks like the Spitfire radiator controller, in the roughly same place relative to my hands as in the plane, with forwards = fully open: but I am not allowed to use it. Bah! Irrational. The Spitfire RL radiator control is not a set of buttons: it is a rotating stick. It is bizarre that I have to use buttons in game, when I can use a rotating stick for the Yak radiators.

 

The axis control can simply move the radiator between the fixed settings. 

 

This is obviously a conspiracy to nerf the Spitfire.

 

You can always use encoders and/or softwares to solve your problem. But I do agree it would be better if we had that option already in the game.

[dburne]

Ok I have another question, this in regards to the proper operation of the supercharger to set higher boost value.

 

From the operation notes:

- Engine is equipped with the automatic governor of the manifold pressure that works when the throttle is set to 1/3 position or above. It is neccessary to turn the automatic governor off to set the boost value to +16.

 

Now to properly engage it, does this mean I first need to reduce throttle to 1/3 or less and then hit the switch, or does it matter where the throttle is when I engage it?

 

Also, is there a time limit on using +16 boost, or say +12?

Edited January 8, 2018 by dburne

[Herne]

Ok I have another question, this in regards to the proper operation of the supercharger to set higher boost value.

 

From the operation notes:

- Engine is equipped with the automatic governor of the manifold pressure that works when the throttle is set to 1/3 position or above. It is neccessary to turn the automatic governor off to set the boost value to +16.

 

Now to properly engage it, does this mean I first need to reduce throttle to 1/3 or less and then hit the switch, or does it matter where the throttle is when I engage it?

 

Also, is there a time limit on using +16 boost, or say +12?

 

it means +16 boost will be maintained regardless of throttle setting it the throttle is above 1/3 throttle.

 

To engage it you map the boost button similar to mc202, i16, LA5, etc

 

time limits are on the engine specification tab. from memory I think 3000 rpm and + 12 boost is 5 minutes. 3000 rpm and + 16 boost is 3 minutes.

 

Edit: Better to check the map briefing specification tab, to be sure. 

Edited January 8, 2018 by =11=herne

[unreasonable]

Edit @dburne    No, what that means is that unless you engage the red boost control over-ride switch, which turns off the automatic governor, you cannot get +16lbs.  So you can engage at any time, although it will only give the largest benefit when throttle is fully forwards  herne is right: once engaged it will produce +16 from about 1/3 throttle setting and up. You should, however,  have 2850 to 3000 rpm before you engage so as not to strain the engine. (Not sure if the game cares about that).

 

There is a limit for +16 - in the Pilot's Notes it is 5 minutes.    Not sure what it is in game: this is what it should be on the limits from manuals philosophy - it may have been changed after release, as dev Gavrick said that the forum had thrown up some new information, but sometimes the in-game tech notes do not get updated.  Run it and see?

Edited January 8, 2018 by unreasonable

[dburne]

Ok make sense thanks, I will give that a try.

[ZachariasX]

Ok make sense thanks, I will give that a try.

What the "boost cut out" does, is it simply re-calibrates the aneroid cylinder that changes boost reduction of the governor up to a max. of +16 when when you toggle the switch.

 

It is kind of a misnomer.

 

I went through it in more detail here, in an older thread.

 

And you really want to use that if you are willing to move the throttle forward. The point about it "not working" when not at least 1/3rd throttle, is that the governor that CANNOT override the whole boost range (basically from "0" MAP to full boost), but only the part of where it really needs to cut your boost for you not overtaxing the engine.

 

It is a technicality and you are supposed to have the throttle way advanced to use boost cut out. Else, why on earth would you enable a potential stressful engine regime if you are not using it anyway? And it is not that you cannot control boost with the throttle anymore once you flip that switch.

[dburne]

Many thanks ZachariasX.

 

One thing I have found with the Spit is I really need to be more judicious in firing my ammo. I tend to run out way too soon. Also getting behind a climbing enemy aircraft can be challenging in judging the lead, as that big nose of the Spit can certainly get in the way.

 

So question for you Spit flyers, do you use the manual convergence controls in the plane or do you just set it prior to launching the mission?

[Herne]

Many thanks ZachariasX.

 

One thing I have found with the Spit is I really need to be more judicious in firing my ammo. I tend to run out way too soon. Also getting behind a climbing enemy aircraft can be challenging in judging the lead, as that big nose of the Spit can certainly get in the way.

 

So question for you Spit flyers, do you use the manual convergence controls in the plane or do you just set it prior to launching the mission?

 

I like to be close when I fire, I set convergence prior to take off for 200m. thats actually my default for all planes. the spit gun sight is calibrated so that by default if you get a bomber wing span in your gunsights that represents about 400m, and a fighter wing span is about 200m. So their is no need for me to adjust the gunsight. Which is a good thing really as I never took the time to figure out how.

 

I seem to remember this was explained in one of the DD's but I can't remember which one exactly

[dburne]

I like to be close when I fire, I set convergence prior to take off for 200m. thats actually my default for all planes. the spit gun sight is calibrated so that by default if you get a bomber wing span in your gunsights that represents about 400m, and a fighter wing span is about 200m. So their is no need for me to adjust the gunsight. Which is a good thing really as I never took the time to figure out how.

 

I seem to remember this was explained in one of the DD's but I can't remember which one exactly

 

Good info that helps, thanks much!

[Herne]

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/168-developer-diary/?p=482640

 

Gavrick explains a lot of things about the spit in this dev diary, including the keys to adjust the sight

[dburne]

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/168-developer-diary/?p=482640

 

Gavrick explains a lot of things about the spit in this dev diary, including the keys to adjust the sight

 

Thanks much, I now have that bookmarked good info.

[TP_Silk]

Another good tip that got passed on to me is to use your MGs if testing a firing solution and save your cannon for the certain shots and then only fire short bursts with them.

[dburne]

Another good tip that got passed on to me is to use your MGs if testing a firing solution and save your cannon for the certain shots and then only fire short bursts with them.

 

Good tip, thanks.

[Boneboys]

Friendly highjack...

 

I'm doing my best to adapt to expert settings but to be quite honest I'm having a lot of trouble getting my engine not to damage and eventually fail.

I've got the water rads set up (handbrake looking stick) and can keep the temperature at 90°C, keeping set at 40% doesn't work, I need to constantly open up the radiators, which is fine but I will still get damage even though I'm below the Burst red line (8).

I use the pitch up / down to bring the nose up / down depending on speed.

Now I must be missing something but for the life of me I do not know what.

Do I need to bind some other radiator or RPM or something....?

 

If I cheat a bit (custom settings everything off) and allow the auto pilot to take control I can see the airscrew control being adjusted in harmony (+ or - ) with the throttle !

What is this and how do I set it to work with the throttle ?

 

I've chosen the Spitfire to make the transition to expert mode but to tell the truth I'm getting the hump, so I'm here to get some help if possible.

 

Oh btw, the Dev that said the Spitfire is an easy aircraft to takeoff / land has got to be leading me up the garden path, so to speak !

 

Thanks in advance, because I know someone, somewhere will help me.

Edited January 21, 2018 by Boneboys

[dburne]

Friendly highjack...

 

I'm doing my best to adapt to expert settings but to be quite honest I'm having a lot of trouble getting my engine not to damage and eventually fail.

I've got the water rads set up (handbrake looking stick) and can keep the temperature at 90°C, keeping set at 40% doesn't work, I need to constantly open up the radiators, which is fine but I will still get damage even though I'm below the Burst red line (8).

I use the pitch up / down to bring the nose up / down depending on speed.

Now I must be missing something but for the life of me I do not know what.

Do I need to bind some other radiator or RPM or something....?

 

 

I have no trouble at all running with my water rad at 40% most the time.

Sounds like you may be running too high an rpm. If you do not have rpm assigned to a control , you need to. I have mine on an axis.

I generally stay below 26k when just flying , only go above that when in combat and then I run around 27-28k when against other fighters. Against bombers I just leave it at 26k or little below.

 

Take offs and landings:

Practice, practice, practice. Stay ahead of the rudder/tailwheel.

Take off requires a fair amount of right rudder trim.

Edited January 21, 2018 by dburne

[Boneboys]

 

Sounds like you may be running too high an rpm. If you do not have rpm assigned to a control , you need to. I have mine on an axis.

 

 

Take offs and landings:

 

OK, I've set up a rpm control + & -,,, I'll see if that helps, I had nothing set before, I assumed rpm were tied to throttle input.

As for the takeoff / landing practice I know already 

 

Any idea what the airscrew control is or how binding it works ?

Someone must know !

Edited January 21, 2018 by Boneboys

[unreasonable]

Friendly highjack...

 

I'm doing my best to adapt to expert settings but to be quite honest I'm having a lot of trouble getting my engine not to damage and eventually fail.

I've got the water rads set up (handbrake looking stick) and can keep the temperature at 90°C, keeping set at 40% doesn't work, I need to constantly open up the radiators, which is fine but I will still get damage even though I'm below the Burst red line (8).

I use the pitch up / down to bring the nose up / down depending on speed.

Now I must be missing something but for the life of me I do not know what.

Do I need to bind some other radiator or RPM or something....?

 

If I cheat a bit (custom settings everything off) and allow the auto pilot to take control I can see the airscrew control being adjusted in harmony (+ or - ) with the throttle !

What is this and how do I set it to work with the throttle ?

 

I've chosen the Spitfire to make the transition to expert mode but to tell the truth I'm getting the hump, so I'm here to get some help if possible.

 

Oh btw, the Dev that said the Spitfire is an easy aircraft to takeoff / land has got to be leading me up the garden path, so to speak !

 

Thanks in advance, because I know someone, somewhere will help me.

 

From reading your post I could be wrong, but it may be that you think that the engine and prop is controlled only by using the throttle, as is the case in the 109s for example. Not so - the rpm control (ie the airscrew control) sets the maximum rpm the prop will try to achieve, the "throttle" will set the boost - ie the pressure of the fuel/air mixture being delivered to the engine. This is actually how the allied aircraft work in general.  You have to set both using different controls: that is what the AI is doing. If you have a split throttle as I do you can map the two controls on the split throttle - otherwise you will have to use another axis or buttons - I think most people keep the throttle (boost) on their HOTAS throttle.

 

The notes for the aircraft in the game give the rpm settings and the boost settings you should use for the different conditions of flight. Eventually you need to memorize them for a particular type of aircraft, or write them on a handy postcard like I do!  The general rule is to make sure that you do not have the boost too high for the given rpm setting. So when you want to increase power, increase the rpm setting first, when decreasing power, cut the boost first, then the rpm setting. There are also time limits for the highest rpm and boost levels. If you are damaging your engine it could well be nothing to do with the radiator, just that you are over-revving or have too much boost over the allowed time limits.

 

It takes time to get this down - I remember being confused at first, having got so used to the simple systems of other games - and spoiled by the automatic systems in the German planes. But it will feel easier with practice.

[dburne]

OK, I've set up a rpm control + & -,,, I'll see if that helps, I had nothing set before, I assumed rpm were tied to throttle input.

As for the takeoff / landing practice I know already 

 

Any idea what the airscrew control is or how binding it works ?

Someone must know !

 

Pretty sure that is an automated control depending on throttle or maybe even the rpm control?.

Edited January 21, 2018 by dburne

[unreasonable]

As to aircrew control  - I thought that you were referring to rpm control but maybe not. (Is that from the Settings page?)  The other thing that can be controlled manually on some planes is the pitch of the propeller blades relative to the direction of flight. "Coarse" is towards the direction of flight - more "bite" - "fine" is flatter. The engine has to do more work to get a given rpm at a coarse setting. Generally the pitch will be fine at take off and landing and more coarse during cruise flight. With an CSP - constant speed propeller - which the Spitfire V has, you do not need to change this manually. You set the desired rpm and the CSP will adjust the pitch of the blades to maintain the desired rpm, as far as it can.  The expert pilots sometimes like to play around with propeller pitch manually thinking it gives them some advantage. They delude themselves    forget it - that is what the CSP is for.  

[Boneboys]

OK, got it...
Airscrew Control is RPM control + or - in the Spitfire.
I have bound the rpm + or - to an axis close to the throttle which works well (T16000M + HOTAS & Pedals).
This also helps a lot when landing, or so I have found (drop rpm while pumping the throttle).
 
Pitch I only use to gain altitude or lose altitude if and when required.
I found this post that I believe explains CSP / Pitch rather well.
 
 

@Uriah
 
Some more simple ways to look at it:
 
Manifold Pressure also called boost pressure = Power setting controlled by the Throttle lever, increase by pushing the lever forward (in most aircraft), in terms of a car it's just the gas pedal
 
CSP= constant speed propeller, can sound misleading, in actual fact the speed of the prop is controllable but is called constant speed because you can set a desired RPM and a governor unit will maintain it, this is a function of having propeller blades that change angle which is known as variable pitch, this is controlled by the propeller/RPM lever, forward and backward are references to the control lever and not the actual propeller.
when the lever is forward the system is at max RPM, this means the blade angle is at 'fine' position (viewed from behind the blade would be flat), when the lever is moved back then it lowers the RPM by moving the blades to a 'coarse' position (viewed from behind the blade would look like it is edge on to you) this makes the propeller take a bigger bite of air and therefore puts more load on the engine and reduces the RPM consequently, in a car you could think of this as the transmission or gearbox.

Anyhow, many thanks for the tips,,, I will be back...