Question for VR users

[Scottvdken]

Hello all,

 I have been seriously considering entering the VR arena, now that BoX has come so far, I've recently returned to it and am enjoying it tremendously. Even pre-ordered BoK and BoB. I can see how the immersion would increase in order of magnitudes with VR, but I am still confused as to how you guys handle your controls while using VR. I have an X55, and while comfortable with the controls, I'm unsure as to how I would be able to find the buttons/switches I need while having the VR goggles on. I'm sure I could find the essentials, but things like flaps/gear/engine controls I have doubts about......

 

So I'm curious, how do you guys do it? Any tips you can give that might push me over the edge? Right now this is my only real hesitation, but it's enough to keep me from diving in.

[Herne]

Hello all,

 I have been seriously considering entering the VR arena, now that BoX has come so far, I've recently returned to it and am enjoying it tremendously. Even pre-ordered BoK and BoB. I can see how the immersion would increase in order of magnitudes with VR, but I am still confused as to how you guys handle your controls while using VR. I have an X55, and while comfortable with the controls, I'm unsure as to how I would be able to find the buttons/switches I need while having the VR goggles on. I'm sure I could find the essentials, but things like flaps/gear/engine controls I have doubts about......

 

So I'm curious, how do you guys do it? Any tips you can give that might push me over the edge? Right now this is my only real hesitation, but it's enough to keep me from diving in.

 

I also use the x55 with saitek combat peddles. You get used to it pretty quickly, you kind of know where you are on the throttle just by touch

 

Edit: This is without a doubt my favourite VR FS. Really is so damn immersive.

Edited January 4, 2018 by =11=herne

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

You memorise the most common buttons. If you have a shortage like I do, the infrequent ones you leave on the keyboard and find by locating the bumps on f and J keys.

 

I would be surprised if you had a shortage with a HOTAS. If you do use 3rd party software to emulate a shift key and multiply your buttons and hat switches.

[Scottvdken]

Yeah, definitely no shortage. I have everything I need on the HOTAS. I'm worried about finding the little toggle swtiches on the bottom and right side, which are what I use for lights/flaps/gear/engine controls.

 

@=11=herne can I ask which set you use, Rift or Vive? I'm also trying to decide between the two. From what I'm reading the consensus seems to be that the Vive is better at the moment......

[dburne]

Welcome to the forums!

 

I was fortunate when a made the switch to VR about  a year ago, as I have used Thrustmaster sticks for many years, and was used to the concept of HOTAS ( Hands on Throttle and Stick).

 

Back when I was flying in non -VR, I had all my essential buttons mapped already and after repeated use it remained in my memory and I had no problems.

 

Also, I can speak as far as the Oculus Rift. It has a gap below the nose, that one can peer through to see parts of their keyboard or whatever may try to peer at. But it is a limited view and can be cumbersome , for instance trying to find certain keys on the keyboard.

 

Best thing to do is get as much of the controls mapped that you can, and study over and over and use often to get used to where they are. If you have not purchased the VR unit yet, would be a good time to work on that.

[major_burns]

There is another option.  For those controls which are buttons, you can use something like VoiceActivatedCommands (VAC)

to send keypresses using voice command.  I use it for opening/closing the canopy (a must for taxiing), gear, and all my lights

(nav, panel, landing...)

[Herne]

Yeah, definitely no shortage. I have everything I need on the HOTAS. I'm worried about finding the little toggle swtiches on the bottom and right side, which are what I use for lights/flaps/gear/engine controls.

 

@=11=herne can I ask which set you use, Rift or Vive? I'm also trying to decide between the two. From what I'm reading the consensus seems to be that the Vive is better at the moment......

 

I have a rift. TBH I don't think there is much to choose between the two in terms of visual quality, but the rift is slightly lighter and the built in mic and headphones are actually pretty decent. you can remove the built in headphones if you wish to use your own. 

 

I think the rift is probably more comfortable to wear over a prolonged period of time. If you happen to have a big room free though and fancy doing some 15' *15' room scale action then the vive might be the better choice for you. 

 

 

[Ribbon]

I have vkb gunfighter with kg12 grip so i have even less controls on joystick so i use twcs throttle and keyboard for majority of controls.

Map, canopy, nav lights and few other controls are on keyboard, i just wrinkle my left eye and i can see under the rift enough to find them on keyboard.

After some time it's not problem at all, i even roll/smoke cigarettes and drink while using VR.

[dburne]

 

 

@=11=herne can I ask which set you use, Rift or Vive? I'm also trying to decide between the two. From what I'm reading the consensus seems to be that the Vive is better at the moment......

 

Not really, it depends.

 

Vive is more expensive. Resolution is the same in both Rift and Vive. Rift reportedly has slightly better SDE ( screen door affect). Vive does not have as stringent a power requirement for their sensors, Rift requires ( or at least highly recommended), good USB 3.0 ports.

 

One area Vive has an advantage, is in large room scale setups. Their Lighthouse tracking system handles that better that the Rift's Constellation tracking system, though the Rift's has certainly got better. Of course for seated games this is not an issue. My play area is around 10 ft x 12 ft, and my Rift with two sensors handles it great.

 

I would suggest, if large room scale experience for some other games that benefit from it is of high interest, then Vive is way to go. If not, then Rift would be the way to go.

[Scottvdken]

No, no room scale for me. I would only be using it for Flight Sim, and maybe ETS2 and some other simulators, depending on what works. 

 

Thank you everyone for your input!

[Rangerjoe03]

I was worried about the keyboard controls too, but now I use the free Joy2Key program and that helps tremendously.

 

The key mapping in the game lets certain buttons be strung together, for example, R Ctrl+Up/down on your hat switch= Radiator open/closed. I think it works this way with the shift ctrl, and alt keys, and there may be more.

 

I have it setup so that each of my joystick buttons is aasigned to those keys. Button 1= R shift, button 2= L Shift etc. It might sound complicated, but I was able to get it working pretty quickly. Use up/down, left/right arrows on the hat switch for more options.

 

I have the MS force feedback 2 joystick that doesn’t have many buttons and I’ve got everything I need using this method. I also downloaded the Voice Attack app which works great for your radio commands and keys that are only used rarely.

Edited January 4, 2018 by Rangerjoe03

[Herne]

No, no room scale for me. I would only be using it for Flight Sim, and maybe ETS2 and some other simulators, depending on what works. 

 

Thank you everyone for your input!

 

I would go with the CV1  then, its cheaper, easier to set up, and probably more comfortable for your needs

[dburne]

No, no room scale for me. I would only be using it for Flight Sim, and maybe ETS2 and some other simulators, depending on what works. 

 

Thank you everyone for your input!

 

You are most welcome.

 

You can also run the Oculus Compatibility Checker to see if any parts of your system might cause issue. It is a pretty good tool.

I ordered my Rift CV1 about a year ago, and ran this first. It flagged my AS Media USB 3.0 ports on my motherboard as known to cause issues with the Rift ( my system is 4 years old). So I ordered the recommended Innatek USB 3.0 PCIe powered card to put in my rig, had it installed when I installed the Rift and it has been completely trouble free for me.

 

You can grab the Oculus Compatibility Checker Here:

https://support.oculus.com/1357437467617798/

Edited January 4, 2018 by dburne

[DD_Crash]

I havnt got BoX set up yet, but I use VoiceAttack with Elite Dangerous and its very effective

[dburne]

I havnt got BoX set up yet, but I use VoiceAttack with Elite Dangerous and its very effective

 

Agreed, another fan of Voice Attack here also, very handy for VR flying.

[SCG_motoadve]

Rift here, Very immersive , cant go back to a screen anymore, its like being an spectator vs being a participant in the game,with the proper HOTAS, VK Gladiator and Warthog throttle, Cessna Saitek trim wheel and Saitek TPM, CH Throttle.

 

I have all this and many buttons to spare , no problem at all to fly in VR.

I keep my hand on the joystick and throttle, most things I can control that way, move to the TPM for lights, and CH throttle for yaw trim, and wingman commands.

 

Its the future, go for it, in a few years most people will be using them, its such an incredible difference.

[HansBlitz]

I use a X55 and have mapped the stuff I needed to the throttle and stick. You get used to feeling the buttons, rotories, and switches. At first I made a few mistakes (like in Yak-1 and dropped landing gear during a fight - I've joked off that mistake later as trying to make the enemy think I was a stuka - yep it was embarrassing yet funny). But I got more time in VR and have fewer of those kind mistakes. Now only if I could not make my flying mistakes. For me the not seeing the keyboard has been worth it. I have stopped flying non-VR. Also, I am using a Rift. I added a 3rd sensor and doing that as allowed room scale for other stuff.

Edited January 4, 2018 by HansBlitz

[Tomsk]

Also a Rift user, can't recommend it enough, won't go back to a monitor now. Have most of the common controls mapped on my HOTAS, and use Voice Attack for the less common ones and radio commands and such like. Works great for me, I have no issues not using the keyboard. You'd think the controls would be hard to find on the HOTAS but I quickly got used to doing it on touch alone.

 

One thing to know with VR currently is that the resolution is not as good as on a monitor, this is the biggest drawback and it can make spotting (and especially) identification harder. IMO it's totally worth it, and most people seem to agree, but a few are disappointed: if possible, try before you buy.

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

Do make sure that your computer hardware is able to provide an enjoyable VR experience. Il-2 is quite demanding, especially in terms of CPU performance. Many users are not satisfied unless they have the best (or very close to the best) configuration. 

[PainGod85]

Do make sure that your computer hardware is able to provide an enjoyable VR experience. Il-2 is quite demanding, especially in terms of CPU performance. Many users are not satisfied unless they have the best (or very close to the best) configuration. 

 

Welp. So basically, Intel users will potentially run into issues starting on January 9th?

 

(There's an embargoed CPU architecture flaw being patched on the software level that day, affecting all Intel CPUs from 10 years ago to now. A performance loss of 5-50% is estimated, but that's just a rough ballpark figure and probably a bit on the heavy side.)

 

http://www.game-debate.com/news/24293/rumour-major-intel-cpu-hardware-vulnerability-found-could-cost-35-performance

[Oubaas]

You start reaching for the right controls without having to look pretty quickly after starting with VR. The first couple of days I was groping around for things. Now, I don't even really think about it much, I just reach for what I want and there it is. I think it's some sort of VR phenomenon similar to a Vulcan Mind-meld, only with you and your PC peripherals instead of with another person.

 

But be forewarned; once you start with VR, you'll be neglecting all your old sims that don't have VR support. And even with those, I've usually been able to find a way to get them working to some degree in VR. The hopeless ones get uninstalled.

 

And if you want my opinion, and I own pretty much any flight sim you could mention going back years, IL-2 BoX is the top of the heap for VR flight simming. Everything else is trying to catch up. IL-2 is the best there is for VR.

 

But of course, others may hold differing opinions. To each his own. But the IL-2 series is my favorite and I'll be buying whatever they offer, all of it, and a big part of that is the great VR, though I'd love the sim anyway, even if it wasn't VR.

[WIS-Redcoat]

I find that the button layout on the VKB is easy to feel without eyes.

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

Paingod, all CPU manufacturers are affected. Older chips more than late ones.

 

We will have to wait for actual test results, before we go for a conclusion on which chip got screwed tighter. Beautiful how I put this word in there, innit? :B

[skline00]

Scottvdken: I just got my Oculus Rift setup configured with one of my computer rigs (6700k OC'd to 4.6, GTX980TI SC and 16g DDR4-3200).

 

I have a Gladiator flight stick and Saitek pedal installed on my 1800x rig below but decided to keep the VR simple and just use an old tried but true Logitech 3d Wingman flight stick to start out with. It is totally a hoot.

 

TRUST ME, once you crank up VR and are seated in the cockpit of a B-109 and turn your head left and right and see the wings, markings etc in real 3 dimension you will be amazed.

 

I just started the program, hit the A key for auto and let it do the flying so I could relax and immerse myself into VR. Then I started slowly with the flight stick.

 

I am not a pilot  but have flown as a passenger in small planes and helicopters.

 

in my opinion, VR is the closest you will come to that experience.

 

Just incredible!

[SCG_motoadve]

Scottvdken: I just got my Oculus Rift setup configured with one of my computer rigs (6700k OC'd to 4.6, GTX980TI SC and 16g DDR4-3200).

 

I have a Gladiator flight stick and Saitek pedal installed on my 1800x rig below but decided to keep the VR simple and just use an old tried but true Logitech 3d Wingman flight stick to start out with. It is totally a hoot.

 

TRUST ME, once you crank up VR and are seated in the cockpit of a B-109 and turn your head left and right and see the wings, markings etc in real 3 dimension you will be amazed.

 

I just started the program, hit the A key for auto and let it do the flying so I could relax and immerse myself into VR. Then I started slowly with the flight stick.

 

I am not a pilot  but have flown as a passenger in small planes and helicopters.

 

in my opinion, VR is the closest you will come to that experience.

 

Just incredible!

I am a pilot and can tell you that your observation is absolutely true, its the closest thing to real flying.

 

And while we are at it, I have gotten much better while playing multiplayer using VR, evasive  and defending you feel the plane , shooting no contest so much better than on a screen.

Yes harder to ID the targets, but... if you are flying in a friendly zone and flak is shooting at them, you know its enemy, and if its enemy zone and flak is not firing at them , enemy, if its an area where no ground objectives are, get close as if they are enemies, at shooting range you should be able to see if they are or not.

[Boneboys]

No, no room scale for me...

Unless you live in a cardboard BoX you would be depriving yourself of a whole bright new world, I doubt that you will be able to resist once you have installed and set up the headset.

Even with a small play area there is so much to enjoy and marvel at, there simply are not enough hours in the day !

 

If you buy a Rift (recommended) you will have everything you need at your disposal, I often jump into First Contact just because it is a joy to play (and check that tracking is working as should).

I bought my Rift in April of last year (before price drop and touch bundle) and only now am I slowly starting to play pancake games.

 

Don't be too concerned about the controls, practice makes perfect (as they say).

 

I have a TM T16000 + Throttle & Pedal set that takes care of nearly everything, however something I do to help with keyboard binds is map them to my Logitech mouse (more buttons than I have fingers) which sits on the right, next to the joystick, this helps a lot.

 

Have fun 

[=X51=VC_]

One thing to know with VR currently is that the resolution is not as good as on a monitor, this is the biggest drawback and it can make spotting (and especially) identification harder.

Identification yes but spotting intuitively should be easier. The smallest a contact can render is a pixel and the pixels are bigger so should be easier to see. This is how it is in another Sim. As soon as I put VR on and turned off eye candy, the dots were huge and sharp black. I had perfect situational awareness in a 20km radius I felt almost like I was cheating. Not sure why spotting is so bad in IL2 but it's not implicitly the fault of VR.

[Tomsk]

Identification yes but spotting intuitively should be easier. The smallest a contact can render is a pixel and the pixels are bigger so should be easier to see. This is how it is in another Sim. As soon as I put VR on and turned off eye candy, the dots were huge and sharp black. I had perfect situational awareness in a 20km radius I felt almost like I was cheating. Not sure why spotting is so bad in IL2 but it's not implicitly the fault of VR.

 

One might think this ... but it's not actually how 3D renderers work: the smallest a contact can render is not at all. Additionally our eyes are good a detecting contrast, and reducing the resolution can easily leave insufficient contrast to spot. I'll repost my image comparison on how reducing the resolution affects visibility:

 

These are the same images but at different resolutions. It's easy to see that things that are clearly visible as contacts at higher resolutions are often not seperable from the background at lower resolutions.

Edited January 5, 2018 by Tomsk

[=X51=VC_]

Yes, I see what you mean. But then isn't it a dev choice to allow contacts smaller than a pixel to be sampled like that and therefore blurred, rather than forcing them to pixel size even when they would be smaller? I know the spotting discussion doesn't really belong here, but yes in that case you are right, low res from VR would make spotting harder. I just didn't realise IL2 worked like that as I had come from something else that treated this quite differently as I said. Now it makes more sense why I struggle with spotting here.

Edited January 5, 2018 by VC_

[Tomsk]

Yes, I see what you mean. But then isn't it a dev choice to allow contacts smaller than a pixel to be sampled like that and therefore blurred, rather than forcing them to pixel size even when they would be smaller? I know the spotting discussion doesn't really belong here, but yes in that case you are right, low res from VR would make spotting harder. I just didn't realise IL2 worked like that as I had come from something else that treated this quite differently as I said. Now it makes more sense why I struggle with spotting here.

 

So it sort of is a dev choice ... but if they just let the renderer do what it does then you get something like the above. If you have anti-aliasing or super-sampling then it will blur things out as above. If you then don't pixels will tend to "flicker" as they go from being rendered to not rendered. You might think that'd make it easier to spot things, but since it also makes all the other pixels flicker as well it's actually much harder to spot movement.

 

Now of course, developers can implement something special if they want to. War Thunder would render distant planes as a single black pixel, which bizarely is harder to spot at higher resolutions since a single pixel is smaller at higher resolutions. It also meant distant planes were easier to spot than somewhat closer ones, since as they got nearer they'd be rendered normally and be blended in. War Thunder is very strange. DCS has an entirely different system where distant planes are rendered as "impostors" and scaled in various (odd) ways ... at least it used to, not sure if they kept it as it wasn't very well done. Falcon 4 has a "Smart Scaling" system where distant models are actually drawn larger to make them more visible, personally I think it works very well. The developers of IL2 have kept very quiet about whether there is any scaling system in use for IL2 ... but in most sensible systems less resolution is just less, and spotting is easier with more resolution.

[SYN_Mike77]

For me the problem with vr wasn't the keyboard, once the game was underway I didn't (and don't) really use the keyboard.  The problem was the serious degradation in picture quality as shown above.  If I'd seen that before I pulled the trigger I wouldn't have!  Sending mine back.

[[CPT]CptJackSparrow]

I can completely understand Mike. I went back to 4k monitor a month ago. Maybe for coops I'll use VR. But in a environment where everyone is gameing the game and every edge counts, disabling my ability to ID at max range was akin to tieing both hands and 1 eyeball behind my back.

 

The rest of my group is all VR, I'm now awacs for them, they spot em and I ID them and give aspect/angle off.

[Tomsk]

I can completely understand Mike. I went back to 4k monitor a month ago. Maybe for coops I'll use VR. But in a environment where everyone is gameing the game and every edge counts, disabling my ability to ID at max range was akin to tieing both hands and 1 eyeball behind my back.

 

Yeah worth stressing, for competitive MP play VR is likely a handicap in IL2BoX. Not so much in DCS where the most popular servers have (fairly small) dots to help spotting, but in IL2BoX most servers are Expert mode and spotting and identification is really tough in VR. VR does bring some benefits (spatial awareness is better, aiming is a bit more natural) but overall I'd say it's significantly less competitive in a no-icons environment.

[[CPT]CptJackSparrow]

Agreed. My gunnery went down after going back to 4k monitor. I also lost the wow factor which VR has in spades. In a controlled coop environment, VR will be epic fun. But it's not epic fun watching a VR track where I lost a fight simply because I couldn't sort bandits and had to give up a tactical advantage to ID.

A side note, we plan on running some coops for VR only once it's release. So everyone is on the same playing field vision wise.

 

Loads of fun to be had.

[Tomsk]

Agreed. My gunnery went down after going back to 4k monitor. I also lost the wow factor which VR has in spades. In a controlled coop environment, VR will be epic fun. But it's not epic fun watching a VR track where I lost a fight simply because I couldn't sort bandits and had to give up a tactical advantage to ID.

A side note, we plan on running some coops for VR only once it's release. So everyone is on the same playing field vision wise.

 

Loads of fun to be had.

 

Yeah I've had similar experiences, losing fights due to complete failure to ID at surprisingly close range. What I say is if people first and foremost love flying, and historical simulation then VR is just the best. If people are into competitive MP ... yeah maybe not so great.

 

Oh I'd love to do some VR coops! Sign me up

[[CPT]CptJackSparrow]

Deal, VR coops soon!

[ACG_Wind]

Saw VoiceAttack mentioned in this thread.  Literally, BEST $10 software to complement VR as u can do many things by voice commands only such as pulling up Map or issuing commands to wingmen, ATC, etc...  Anyone know of a good VA vap for IL2?  I started one, but if one is already out there for default keybinds, that would be killer!

 

Anyone flying DCS, there is an excellent VAP/plugin (VIACOM) that is quite well done.  Brought me back to DCS as a sole VR flyer.

[dburne]

For me the problem with vr wasn't the keyboard, once the game was underway I didn't (and don't) really use the keyboard.  The problem was the serious degradation in picture quality as shown above.  If I'd seen that before I pulled the trigger I wouldn't have!  Sending mine back.

 

I will say, had I have seen that image prior to getting my Rift last year, I likely would not have done so either. But I am sure glad I did not and I did get the Rift.

 

VR is not a please all currently, so much of it is personal perception. I hate you had to go through the disappointment, but hang in there I have a feeling when the next generation does come, it will be mind blowing.

[Tomsk]

I will say, had I have seen that image prior to getting my Rift last year, I likely would not have done so either. But I am sure glad I did not and I did get the Rift.

 

VR is not a please all currently, so much of it is personal perception. I hate you had to go through the disappointment, but hang in there I have a feeling when the next generation does come, it will be mind blowing.

 

Yeah to be clear that image exagerates the effect because I used it to show the difference between people's actual visual acuity, what's possible with a 2K monitor, and whats possible in VR. However, I can't make an image for "real life vision" to show people on a monitor that renders better than what you can see on a monitor. So all of those images are "zoomed in" so to speak. Hence, the middle of those images is what it's actually like to play in VR and tallies well with my experience.

 

EDIT: Which I've now fixed, so people don't get the wrong idea :-)

 

Another way to find out whether you'd be happy with the resolution is to play the game on a monitor in 800x600 for a bit (turn the anti-aliasing up though), since that's actually what it's like resolution wise (in terms of pixels per degree).

Edited January 5, 2018 by Tomsk

[PatrickAWlson]

For me the feeling of being in a life size cockpit with a life size aircraft around me outweighs the lack of resolution - and I am running with low settings on a NVidia 970 so my resolution is about as bad as it's going to get.  It's still amazing.  My SA is so much better (although still bad enough that I need icons) and everything just feels so much more natural. 

 

My biggest issue at the moment is double vision through the gunsights.

 

It also provides comic relief for my wife as I twist my head backwards and stare at her while she's sitting on the couch behind me