Bf 109 engine management question

[Corsair]

Hello, and happy new year all.

 

I have a few concerns regarding the Bf 109 engine management, and especially engine damage following a prolonged use in 'war emergency' power setting.

- in real life, how was the combat and emergency setting activated? was it a notch on the throttle lever?

- what are actual parameters to monitor (when playing without HUD) for monitoring the use of such settings in order to avoid blowing up the engine?

- is the engine blow up mechanic supposed to evolve in upcoming patches? Its current implementation leaves me a little perplex (as far as I have tested, blowup is unavoidable after an exact 2'30'' timer in 100% emergency on the Bf 109 G-4).

 

Thanks for your insight & all the best.

[MrNoice]

I hope they will make it better... for now you cant really tell when it blows  well ok its hard coded with the "ingame limits" 1Min Full Power and after that instantly destroyed without chance to recover etc and no pre warning  ...

Edited January 2, 2018 by KG_S_MrFies

[=X51=VC_]

Not sure about how accurately the limits and damage are modelled in game as I've been flying my 109s cautiously for exactly this reason. But the cockpit instrument for power setting is the manifold pressure (ata) gauge just below and right of the gunsight. 1.2 is cruise, 1.3 is combat but can be run essentially indefinitely (this is 100% on the G-2 as it's limited) and 1.42 is take-off and emergency. I don't have the G-4 but if I'm taking the F-4 for a spin I glance at the cockpit clock when I throttle above 1.3 ata and don't stay there more than a minute.

[1_Robert_]

Not sure about how accurately the limits and damage are modelled in game as I've been flying my 109s cautiously for exactly this reason. But the cockpit instrument for power setting is the manifold pressure (ata) gauge just below and right of the gunsight. 1.2 is cruise, 1.3 is combat but can be run essentially indefinitely (this is 100% on the G-2 as it's limited) and 1.42 is take-off and emergency. I don't have the G-4 but if I'm taking the F-4 for a spin I glance at the cockpit clock when I throttle above 1.3 ata and don't stay there more than a minute.

I echo this but note those manifold pressures change as you gain altitude. For that reason, use RPMs along with ata.

[=X51=VC_]

I echo this but note those manifold pressures change as you gain altitude. For that reason, use RPMs along with ata.

I thought the automatic continuously adjusting supercharger basically took care of that for you, at least at common game altitudes. At what alt does thus start to change?

[Blackhawk_FR]

Yes the manifold pressure doesn't change with altitude on the 109 (sure about that at least between 0 and 4000m, as I rarely fly at high altitude).

Edited January 2, 2018 by F/JG300_Faucon

[Herne]

From memory 109f4 ata starts to drop off at some point over 5k. 190 a3 on the other hand starts to drop off well below 2k until it hits the gear 2 on the supercharger

Edited January 2, 2018 by =11=herne

[curiousGamblerr]

I hope they will make it better... for now you cant really tell when it blows well ok its hard coded with the "ingame limits" 1Min Full Power and after that instantly destroyed without chance to recover etc and no pre warning ...

It's not instant. After you exceed the limits there is a random chance of damage, and after damage a random chance of total engine failure. It's pretty extreme when you abuse emergency, but you can go 5-10 minutes over combat limits if you're lucky. Your specific ATA also matters- 1.25 will last much longer than 1.3, despite both being "combat" settings according to the HUD.

 

And FWIW there's like fifteen threads on this topic.

Edited January 2, 2018 by 19//curiousGamblerr

[Jade_Monkey]

And FWIW there's like fifteen threads on this topic.

^ This

[Corsair]

It's not instant. After you exceed the limits there is a random chance of damage, and after damage a random chance of total engine failure.

 

It's maybe linear and not "all or nothing" damage, but it's definitely not random.. at least, that's my preliminary conclusions for the tests I have done (5 tests at max emergency, with the exact same blowup timer every time + other tests at similar power outputs with comparable results).

 

 

And FWIW there's like fifteen threads on this topic.

 

Already lost in page 5+, and that I only found after several word searches.

Sorry if I made a double topic. However I'd like to address a question that was not originally in it, namely the throttle question and emergency modes: is it a notch on the real 109, or is it activated with the linear throttle course, or...?

Edited January 2, 2018 by EC5/25_Corsair

[curiousGamblerr]

The devs have said it's random after exceeding the time.

[SCG_motoadve]

The devs have said it's random after exceeding the time.

Random would work I think for this scenario, just wish developers turn down the odds a bit, so its more unlikely to blow up than it is now.

 

So knowing there is a random chance of maybe 20% of your engine blowing up , you take care of it hoping its not that time.

But they way is now, its almost always blowing up the engine when pushed past emergency power for a bit.

[curiousGamblerr]

Yeah that would be cool moto. If it doesn't already, I would like to see the chance increase over time past the limit, e.g. 10% for one minute over, then 20% for the next and so on.

 

And Corsair, I'm not sure about your second question. I think it's just up to the pilot to watch Ata and RPM and know their aircraft's limits. But I'm nowhere close to a historical 109 expert, hopefully someone comes along to answer that one for you.

Edited January 2, 2018 by 19//curiousGamblerr

[SCG_motoadve]

Yeah that would be cool moto. If it doesn't already, I would like to see the chance increase over time past the limit, e.g. 10% for one minute over, then 20% for the next and so on.

 

And Corsair, I'm not sure about your second question. I think it's just up to the pilot to watch Ata and RPM and know their aircraft's limits. But I'm nowhere close to a historical 109 expert, hopefully someone comes along to answer that one for you.

Yes the more you push it the increase of chances to blow it up, I like that idea so we cannot just fly it at full power hoping its not the day.

In this case when you reach 100% you engine will blow up for sure.

[Corsair]

 

 

And Corsair, I'm not sure about your second question. I think it's just up to the pilot to watch Ata and RPM and know their aircraft's limits. But I'm nowhere close to a historical 109 expert, hopefully someone comes along to answer that one for you.

I was basically asking if the emergency power setting was just Ata-based, and then reached with linear throttle response like any other manifold pressure setting, or if it was 'protected' by a notch on the throttle course, like an afterburner on a jet engine for instance.

 

____

 

well, just did a few more runs, up to a dozen of tests in total at 100% emergency, all engine eventually catastrophically fail between the 2'15 and 2'30 mark, with an exception at 2'40. So, random, maybe, but with a pretty narrow distribution, making the whole randomness a bit moot in my opinion.

 

The failure probability both of you just evoked seems to be a much more satisfying option.

[curiousGamblerr]

I believe the answer to your question is it's just Ata/RPM based.

 

Fair enough on the randomness, not very variable when you exceed emergency limits. The randomness is much more, uh, random when you abuse combat power tho.

 

It also recovers, if you use a minute of emergency and then go back to combat/continuous for a while. So I basically use emergency in 30second bursts for acceleration only.

 

They system is far from perfect, but I've come to like it and rarely blow an engine anymore. The devs have expressed a desire to improve the system, but it's a tricky balance between exacting realism of the aircraft like a study sim, and encouraging realistic tactical combat behavior. This sim aims for the later, as opposed to another popular sim that aims for the former.

[Guest deleted@134347]

I believe the answer to your question is it's just Ata/RPM based.

 

Fair enough on the randomness, not very variable when you exceed emergency limits. The randomness is much more, uh, random when you abuse combat power tho.

 

It also recovers, if you use a minute of emergency and then go back to combat/continuous for a while. So I basically use emergency in 30second bursts for acceleration only.

 

 

yup, I found it to be the proper way of managing it. I use it in 10-30 second bursts, or as much as possible if trying to climb out of a fight but still no more than a minute (i start to count to 60 in my head).

 

In my opinion after reading all of these WEP related questions, comments, and frustration seem to come from pilots who just set it to max, forget about it, blow up the engine, then come here to express the sense of discontent. Well.. you can't... forget about it. Max power requires max responsibility lol..

[Corsair]

 

 

They system is far from perfect, but I've come to like it and rarely blow an engine anymore. The devs have expressed a desire to improve the system, but it's a tricky balance between exacting realism of the aircraft like a study sim, and encouraging realistic tactical combat behavior. This sim aims for the later, as opposed to another popular sim that aims for the former.

Indeed, and I'm absolutely not pushing for realism a-la study sim (and the other sim you mention rather fails in that regard, in my opinion).. I just believe that this blunt timer with little randomness is not the finest solution, and that other basic physical factors should be considered, without building a CATIA simulation of the whole thing.

 

 

In my opinion after reading all of these WEP related questions, comments, and frustration seem to come from pilots who just set it to max, forget about it, blow up the engine, then come here to express the sense of discontent. Well.. you can't... forget about it. Max power requires max responsibility lol..

 

Well, yes, I'm pretty responsible of my engines, be it in real life (my O-320 engine temperature tends to rise pretty quick..) or in other sims, where setting and forgetting your turbofan in afterburner setting won't provide particularly long endurance.

 

If you choose to feature restricted engines output (which I support), it would be interesting to base it on interesting factors (and not a strict timer), without going into the study-sim as mentioned above.

[Guest deleted@134347]

If you choose to feature restricted engines output (which I support), it would be interesting to base it on interesting factors (and not a strict timer), without going into the study-sim as mentioned above.

 

it's true, but I think the current model also adds the element of a gamble during the dog fight. Technically you'd only need to use it in a dogfight or a critical scenario (running from AA), and those scenarios last 2-5 mins tops, which is enough time to use WEP sparingly. Anything more than that and it there will be no point in having WEP as everyone will use it 100%...

 

it's extremely satisfying to chase a FW-190 in a dive knowing he's trying to squeeze every ounce of power out of his bird only to go full LOL when you see him starting to smoke followed by "you're mine now"..

[1_Robert_]

There is certainly an element of randomness when you’re talking combat power. I’ve not done any tests myself but others have and have seen variable results from running combat pwr.

While you can certainly argue this engine modeling isn’t perfect, I fear what any tweaks might do, and I for one am happy with what we’ve got.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Well, it hurts both sides, and the heavier Aircraft more than the light ones. In a light Fighter you never struggle to Take-Off, while a heavily laden 111 or Ju-88 has to worry about getting above Tree Level as well as having the Engines die. 

 

And then Aircraft where certain Temperatures are only allowed for short times, get to run those continuously, especially the Klimov powered Aircraft ingame, while the poor P-40 is rather brutally gagged by it's rather Thatcherian Limitations. 

Edited January 3, 2018 by 6./ZG26_Klaus-Mann

[Sgt_Joch]

to set the engine, I prefer to set the RPM using the Tachometer, since MAP varies a lot with the altitude.

 

On WEP, like most here, I use it as required, either 30 second bursts at 100%, or more commonly, I will use midway, i.e. 2700 rpm on a G4 which gives you a good power burst, but is usable for 5-10 minutes at a time.

[Godspeed]

This same thing bugs me while flying Bf-110..

[Corsair]

well following discussion on the Dev assistance/FM discussion forum, it appears the 1 minute limit is simply out of place and shall not be, but Sgt_Joch and I have already discussed about this...

Edited January 10, 2018 by EC.5/25.Corsair

[MrNoice]

well yeah its pretty unrealistic ingame 

[Tuesday]

well yeah its pretty unrealistic ingame 

 

You go hard on an engine for too long and bad things happen.

[Corsair]

You go hard on an engine for too long and bad things happen.

Of course. But definitely not in the fashion that is currently implemented.

Edited January 10, 2018 by EC.5/25.Corsair

[SYN_Haashashin]

well following discussion on the Dev assistance/FM discussion forum, it appears the 1 minute limit is simply out of place and shall not be, but Sgt_Joch and I have already discussed about this...

 

Well, as there are more topics about this and there is no need of having several topics speaking about the same thing, I recomend to continue the discussion there.