Why you are still not in VR?

[chiliwili69]

Being this 2017 the first year that we have enjoyed the nice VR implementation in IL-2, I am wondering what are the reasons for many of you still not going to VR.

 

If you have seen "The life of Brian" movie when asking "crucifixion or freedom?", here the question is similar

"VR or not VR?". IMHO IL-2 VR is so good that I really want to understand the reasons for crucifixion...

 

Feel free to add any other reason not included in the list.

 

You can tick more than one answer.

Edited January 2, 2018 by chiliwili69

[Urra]

Waiting for pimax 5k/8k! Whenever that is.

[Royal_Flight]

I bought a Rift just for Il-2 and DCS, and never got along with it.

Why? Not entirely sure, but it's not for me.

Resolution is too poor, hate the VR zoom and I'm not a fan of the slight sense of nausea and dislocation while using menus, ejecting or doing any wild manoeuvring. Spotting ground targets was harder as well.

And having my pilot's virtual head constantly smacking into the canopy drove me up the wall, stupidest feature in this sim.

I went through all the menus, scoured forums and changed all the settings as per every recommendation but just never got along with it.

 

The sense of being in the cockpit is brilliant though, and viewing the aircraft from the outside in the selection menu is great and gives a real sense of scale that is impossible to get with a monitor, but it's not worth the cost to me.

 

I also selected 'wanting to be competitive in MP' as my sole VR MP sortie wasn't a success due to resolution and spotting issues and I'd never feel remotely like I could compete with what feels to me like a significant handicap.

 

 

In other news, I'm selling an as-new Oculus Rift, great condition and only used for the above experiments...

[Lusekofte]

I was not convinced enough at the time in order to buy a new PC and VR, now I migrate more and more to COD , and want a expencive yoke in adition to the stick I have . This is more expencive than a VR , I understand those with a Warthog device or similar for going VR, nice pits and awareness, good feel to it. Loved flying the PE 2 with it. But for me immersion is also my panels and buttons. I know of many pitbuilders using both, and many of them leave the VR goggles and fly with the hardware and trackir. But in this game, you do not benefit with buttons and axis, so for those flying only BOS , I get it, for COD I rather use gauges and the tools provided for extra instruments in pit. Simply gve me more. 

[ACG_Smokejumper]

Need another option.

 

It's not ready yet.

 

The resolution needs to be high and the field of view needs to be large. Peripheral vision goes out to 180+. Less or more depending on you but most of us can stick our hands out and see our own wiggling fingers.

 

I've played live action VR at Zero Latency in Australia and it was one of the coolest things I've done. It was like running around inside a video game. The potential is there but for me the resolution and field of view are too limiting. I've had back surgery so I really rely on peripheral vision. I found BoS unplayable before I purchased an ultra wide and tweaked Track IR. It physically hurt and I imagine VR in a tunnel will require some torquing of my spine as I can't use my eyes to look.

 

I don't hurt driving and shoulder checking because I can look with my eyes as well. VR for me needs to mimic this to an extent so I'm not in pain.

 

Other than that I'm really excited for VR. I've been waiting since the 80's. I can wait a bit more.

Edited December 31, 2017 by 7./JG26_Smokejumper

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

Yet another reason.

 

For some, it isn’t socially acceptable to use VR most of the time.

 

With a monitor, I can still interact with people (drink a coffee, participate in discussion, leave computer while on autolevel). Especially for people with families, it’s not advisable to avoid these activities. Of course, VR devices make them impossible.

 

‘Strange head-mounted things’ (TrackIR) already push the limits in certain situations. Disappearing entirely in VR is almost always hard to justify.

Edited January 1, 2018 by Mitthrawnuruodo

[SeaW0lf]

Need another option.

 

It's not ready yet.

 

+1

[Dutch2]

I did use it on a demo in a store and I was not impressed at this stage of VR gear development. So I’m waiting for the next gen VR gear the StarVR & Pimax and if they will stay at the price of €550,- max, I’m in for an VR set.

 

Edit: I do miss the choice: waiting for the next gen VRgear.

Edited January 1, 2018 by Dutch2

[chiliwili69]

 

 

Need another option.   It's not ready yet.

 

This is the same than saying "waiting for next VR generation". Since "it´s not ready yet" you wait for something better.

[56RAF_Roblex]

Mine is a mix of 'It costs too much' and 'I am waiting for the next gen'.     I might be willing to spend that sort of money for current tech but I cannot help thinking that the current headsets are about to become obsolete very shortly and I will have wasted my money.   I am convinced though that VR is the future and I will have to invest in it sometime in the next 12 months, maybe 18 months.

[chiliwili69]

 

 

Disappearing entirely in VR is almost always hard to justify

 

This is true. When I am in VR I am totally out of real world, my kids say "Daddy is again with the Oculus" and they know they have to take out my headphones if they require something from me. This VR excursions need to be balanced (just one or two per week, in weekend early morning when they are still on bed).

Many other hobbies also require to negotiate a portion of Dad time to be "your time".

 

But when I was playing in monitor I couldn´t do any other thing in parallel (like BOS, I am very much a single-threaded guy,   ). So VR didn´t change that too much.

[Archie]

I've never tried VR, and I'm sure I would be blown away, but at this stage I would rather wait for the next gen I think, no matter how tempting it is with current rift pricing. I still spend a lot of time in Cliffs of Dover, and that is not VR capable, so I think it would also be annoying jumping from VR to monitor with each game.

Every day it gets just that bit harder to hold out though...

Edited January 1, 2018 by Archie

[SYN_Skydance]

I sometimes use the HTC Vive, and flying in VR is undoubtedly awesome. But, I would never say that I would never go back to a 2D monitor. They both give very different experiences. I find it a lot more casual when flying whilst using a 2D monitor and chatting online etc. If I were a single player flyer, I think that I would probably use the Vive more then. When I fly multiplayer in VR, I tend to "wing up" with other squad mates that are using VR. I guess it's because we will be sharing the same experiences, spotting, IDing etc.

[Dutch2]

This is the same than saying "waiting for next VR generation". Since "it´s not ready yet" you wait for something better.

Did the correction in vote, aaaaaa, it was an hard 2017/2018, still have an big hangover.

[SeaW0lf]

This is the same than saying "waiting for next VR generation". Since "it´s not ready yet" you wait for something better.

 

The next generation might not suffice as well, so I thought the option was a bit forceful. It might take a few years or even 5-10 years for all the hardware and software to get there. 

[chiliwili69]

 

 

The next generation might not suffice as well

 

Yes, you are right, I will change "next" by "future" in the questions.

 

IHMO, current generation is already there, understanding "there" as good enough to trick my brain and think you are really flying that plane. At the end of the day, all we play IL-2 just to have fun, and the fun that VR delivers is much much better than in a 4K monitor (again, personal feeling).

 

For sure I would prefer to have more resolution and FOV, but the current Rift doesn´t prevent me to enjoy now the experience so much.

 

Regarding future VR generations it is worth to read a post I put in reddit about this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/oculus/comments/7esws0/why_oculus_is_taking_so_much_time_in_producing/

 

The real fact is that Oculus is interested in going to the masses, not to delight the PC-heavy users. Unless they implemented a good foveat rendering, all increments in resolution and FOV is going against their real interest (the masses) since, in addition to the Rift, it will require an expensive GPU that only 1% of the people own:

 

http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/videocard/

 

This is the reason behind Pimax (and others). To produce a VR device for those 5% PC-heavy users that Oculus will always leave on the table (unless Oculus solves the GPU needs of higher resolutions). Let´s see how the Pimax thing evolve along this first half of 2018. (I backed their kickstarter for Pimax 8K, I hope they deliver before summer...)

[Dave]

I would pay $2000 for StarVR if it was available. Same for Pimax8K X (if it isn't just bullshit). But for the last 2 years all the NextGen HMDs have remained no more than vapourware. I got tired of waiting and bought the Rift CV1. It isn't perfect by any stretch but it is much better than nothing at all.

 

If StarVR was available to buy tomorrow I would happily give my Rift away and buy it and feel satisfied that I got everything I paid for in the CV1.

unless Oculus solves the GPU needs of higher resolutions

... or Nvidia step up with their own HMD. Don't discount that possibility. Edited January 2, 2018 by Dave

[dburne]

I took the plunge and purchased my Rift setup almost a year ago ( Jan 15th). Prior to that, I had decided I was going to wait until " next gen " VR devices.

I am so glad I did not.

 

I was amazed at the experience, the immersion of flying planes in VR just completely took over for me. I have not gamed on my monitor since then, and will  not. 

There is no doubt, I spent way more time gaming ( mainly flying ) in 2017 than I did in any year prior to that. 

VR is just a whole new level for me and I absolutely love it.

 

I too though really look forward to the next generation devices, but until then I will continue to log many hours flying in VR with my Rift, and loving every minute of it.

[OrLoK]

There are cons to current VR, but ill never go back.

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

Aussie Prices on Computer Parts are.... Extreme

CPU $1200
Mobo $450
GPU $850
VR $500

No Thanks rather spend that almost $3000 on my car or my animals :D
 

[Dakpilot]

Rift is currently $1000 + in my area when available, for me personally I feel the performance/experience/cost ratio is not worth it when added to cost of PC and other hardware upgrade needed

 

Hopefully things will mature a bit with next gen and next gen CPU/GPU developments, but I feel the cost will still be prohibitive for most

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Trooper117]

Yep, I'm with him... just can't afford it and I see it as a luxury I can get along without... plus, I like to see my keyboard and flight controls.

[katdog5]

Id set the value of my 90fps 1.7SS VR experience at about $25,000 in early 2000s dollars EASY.

 

If your seat/person moved 360 degrees with physics:  $100,000-$125,000 and you could charge $20/ride

 

That said, if your rig is ancient, $2000+ upgrades aint cheap. 

[chiliwili69]

 

 

CPU $1200 Mobo $450 GPU $850 VR $500

 

Assuming you go from scratch, with 1700$ you have a quite good PC for Il-2 VR:

 

https://www.amazon.com/CYBERPOWERPC-Supreme-SLC8880CPG-i7-8700K-802-11AC/dp/B076VF77XR/

 

Put another 350$ for Rift and it is about 2000$, not 3000$ (USD).

So about 2500 australian dollars.

 

PD: spend that in your animals, cars are just material things.

[Beazil]

I chose "I have vr and would never go back to monitor" because is was the only choice for current gen vr users. I also use my three 3d monitors in surround, but at present my 3d will not work with BOX for some reason I have not been able to sort out. When it does work, it's a fantastic experience as well with some advantages over current vr implementation including superior fov, better resolution and ease of use for checking six. Other than that I can say vr is only going to get better, and it is an experience that I hope will become increasingly accessible as costs come down and computer power increases. I enjoy both experiences and have a slight preference for VR in its current state.

[THERION]

I think this will never be an option for me as I've got a visual disorder (only 40% on the left) - and besides of that

now I have to wear glasses because I broke the "sound barrier" of 50 years a while ago.

 

I'm not sure to experience the visual advantage of VR. I'm already a bad spotter with TrackIR, so the imagination

of wearing a heavy binocular right in front of my eyes will only result in goggle eyes.

[TG-55Panthercules]

I think this will never be an option for me as I've got a visual disorder (only 40% on the left) - and besides of that

now I have to wear glasses because I broke the "sound barrier" of 50 years a while ago.

 

I'm not sure to experience the visual advantage of VR. I'm already a bad spotter with TrackIR, so the imagination

of wearing a heavy binocular right in front of my eyes will only result in goggle eyes.

 

I have to wear glasses too, but I found a cheap ($25 US) way to get a prescription lens insert for my Rift that works just fine.  Also, I find that I can easily imagine that wearing the Rift is like wearing a flying helmet/goggles, so it feels quite natural to me when using it for BoX.  I loved my old TIR, but after flying with the Rift I can't see myself going back to a monitor again (even with TIR, and even with the limitations of the current generation of VR gear).  I just hope that Oculus and the others don't actually abandon the PC gamer/flight sim market in favor of "the masses" just as the technology starts to get even more awesome.

[Dutch2]

I have to wear glasses too, but I found a cheap ($25 US) way to get a prescription lens insert for my Rift that works just fine.  Also, I find that I can easily imagine that wearing the Rift is like wearing a flying helmet/goggles, so it feels quite natural to me when using it for BoX.  I loved my old TIR, but after flying with the Rift I can't see myself going back to a monitor again (even with TIR, and even with the limitations of the current generation of VR gear).  I just hope that Oculus and the others don't actually abandon the PC gamer/flight sim market in favor of "the masses" just as the technology starts to get even more awesome.

What is a prescription lens insert for OR any link for that extra lenses.

[dburne]

I have to wear glasses too, but I found a cheap ($25 US) way to get a prescription lens insert for my Rift that works just fine.  Also, I find that I can easily imagine that wearing the Rift is like wearing a flying helmet/goggles, so it feels quite natural to me when using it for BoX.  I loved my old TIR, but after flying with the Rift I can't see myself going back to a monitor again (even with TIR, and even with the limitations of the current generation of VR gear).  I just hope that Oculus and the others don't actually abandon the PC gamer/flight sim market in favor of "the masses" just as the technology starts to get even more awesome.

 

I don't think Oculus will abandon the high end PC-VR. I think their strategy is to capture the largest portion of the market, with their lower end WMR headsets, mid range wireless ( Santa Cruz), and high end PC-VR. 

 

After all they are still investing a ton of money into software/games to run on  PC-VR. I think they are just sticking to their plan for it, app 3 year cycle, and whenever their next generation of the Rift comes it will be amazing and rock solid. 

 

At least that is what I am hanging my VR Hat on.

[Drum]

True, when the next gen Rift comes out we'll only need the visor upgrade.  The cost should be reasonable considering we already own the sensors & controllers.

[Dave]

Assuming you go from scratch, with 1700$ you have a quite good PC for Il-2 VR:

 

https://www.amazon.com/CYBERPOWERPC-Supreme-SLC8880CPG-i7-8700K-802-11AC/dp/B076VF77XR/

 

Put another 350$ for Rift and it is about 2000$, not 3000$ (USD).

So about 2500 australian dollars.

 

PD: spend that in your animals, cars are just material things.

No - Shadow's estimate was accurate. Things cost more in Australia than simply converting the USD price to AUD. we have this thing called freight and another thing called GST.

I don't think Oculus will abandon the high end PC-VR. I think their strategy is to capture the largest portion of the market, with their lower end WMR headsets, mid range wireless ( Santa Cruz), and high end PC-VR.

 

After all they are still investing a ton of money into software/games to run on PC-VR. I think they are just sticking to their plan for it, app 3 year cycle, and whenever their next generation of the Rift comes it will be amazing and rock solid.

 

At least that is what I am hanging my VR Hat on.

I don't think anyone expects them to abandon the PC platform. The concern is that they have shifted focus and resources much like Apple did to iDevices leaving the Mac platform languishing for years.

 

Edit: Removed accidental double post

Edited January 4, 2018 by Dave

[chiliwili69]

I just hope that Oculus and the others don't actually abandon the PC gamer/flight

 

I don´t think they will abandon the PC-VR market. They were born with it and they will continue with for sure. What it is happening now is that for this 2018 (from Hardware point of view) they are only focused in mobile solutions (Oculus Go, Oculus SantaCruz prototype) and their competitors as well (HTC Focus, Google Daydream). So, for Oculus, the VR-PC is not a priority for 2018.

 

For sure in 2019 Oculus and HTC will need to release their second generation for PC-VR, but don´t expect a major increase in resolution or FOV. (this will reduce considerably their potential market). Their target are not the 1-3% PC-Heavy users (with latest GPUs), their target is the remaining 97% which ca not afford a new rig or a new GPU (assuming they can afford the VR device).

 

The only real thing that Oculus could do is to create a device with 2*4K (or even more) panels and develop well the foveat rendering technique

Edited January 4, 2018 by chiliwili69

[chiliwili69]

 

 

I don't think Oculus will abandon the high end PC-VR. I think their strategy is to capture the largest portion of the market, with their lower end WMR headsets, mid range wireless ( Santa Cruz), and high end PC-VR

 

In VR there are two different markets: PC-based and non PC-based. Don´t mix them. They are radically different in term of software they can run.

I am just really interested in the PC-based (IL-2 needs a PC to run!). Our interest here is IL-2. This is an IL-2 forum.

For me, all the non PC-Based VR (Google Daydream, HTC Focus, Samsung Gear VR, Oculus Go, etc, etc ) is a nice thing for the masses (and makers profit´s) but not for IL-2 VR.

 

Most of the current Rift games for the masses (Lone Echo, Robo recall, the Climb, etc) are quite OK with the current resolution. Most of people don´t complaint about that.

 

The only small (very very small) group that complaint a bit about current Rift resolution are the Heavy Flight Sim users (DCS, IL-2, etc) and also most of us enjoy the experience (prefer immersion over a 4K monitor).

 

Don, you are a heavy PC-user, all with a 1080 or 1080Ti are PC heavy users. But they are just less than 3% of the market. You (or any of us) are not a priority for Oculus. The priority is the remaining 97% percent.

[chiliwili69]

 

 

No - Shadow's estimate was accurate.

 

You are right, I just wanted to point out they were not USD. BTW, we have same problem in Europe. When in the US the Rift is sold by 350$, here in Europe they convert USD = EUR, so 350€ despite the rate is around 1.2. Then they put another 100€, so final price is 449€! plus shipping. 

[sniperton]

Yep, it's definetely a First World toy, and very few people outside Western Europe or Northern America can afford to invest $2000+ in a VR-ready gaming rig.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_countries_by_average_wage

[dburne]

 

The only small (very very small) group that complaint a bit about current Rift resolution are the Heavy Flight Sim users (DCS, IL-2, etc) and also most of us enjoy the experience (prefer immersion over a 4K monitor).

 

Don, you are a heavy PC-user, all with a 1080 or 1080Ti are PC heavy users. But they are just less than 3% of the market. You (or any of us) are not a priority for Oculus. The priority is the remaining 97% percent.

 

Well it is a little more than that, not only do we have the flight sim users - and several flight sims now support VR - but also the racing sim enthusiast, space sim enthusiast ( Elite Dangerous has a huge following in VR). Along with the fps folks that would love to see VR support added to some of their favorite games, which will come as the market expands.

 

There are a lot of companies making good money off of the PC heavy users, Intel AMD Nvidia EVGA MSI Gigabyte Asus Corsair etc etc. 

I think Oculus priority is to capture the majority of the overall market for VR, which high end PC would certainly be a part of. I believe they want to grow their business using all the pieces of the pie. And they are certainly continuing to invest a ton of money into development of VR titles to run on the PC.

[Talisman]

I have tried VR and it is fantastic, but I am waiting for next generation for better performance, mostly visual resolution quality.  If I purchase now I get a product that is about to be superseded and has poor resolution for the combat environment.  Most of my squad don't have VR yet, so I don't want to be the one who cant spot contacts as well as every one else. 

 

Happy landings,

 

56RAF_Talisman

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

I'm the only one in my squad with VR and I'm no burden to them spotting contacts. Honestly I can usually ID *almost* as well too but I have been flying in VR since it was officially supported so I have had 9 months to adapt.

 

It's hard at first. But you get better at it. Supersampling assists as well.

[Drum]

The only problem spotting in VR with Il-2 is due to the game not being adjusted to compensate for the screen door effect.  This effect washes out the plane silhouettes so they look fuzzy and very similar in colour as the screen door effect.  They need to make the planes pure black so they pop more for VR, and balance them so they're equally visible for everyone with or without VR.

[Dave]

I don´t think they will abandon the PC-VR market. They were born with it and they will continue with for sure. What it is happening now is that for this 2018 (from Hardware point of view) they are only focused in mobile solutions (Oculus Go, Oculus SantaCruz prototype) and their competitors as well (HTC Focus, Google Daydream). So, for Oculus, the VR-PC is not a priority for 2018.

If you haven't been an Apple developer for the last 11 years you may not appreciate how bad this can be. I have been and while Apple too were "reborn" in the market of building high-end hardware and robust software for science and engineering developers, they dumped us all overnight to chase the lower paying (per sale) but seemingly endless mobile market. In doing so they also shifted focus from industry-leading quality to marketing and pointless "gadgets" as fashion accessories for the vain. With that experience behind me, when a company I count on says they're focussing on the mobile market I start looking for alternatives.

For sure in 2019 Oculus and HTC will need to release their second generation for PC-VR, but don´t expect a major increase in resolution or FOV. (this will reduce considerably their potential market).

It doesn't reduce their market - it diverts development resources from a much larger potential market to enhance the satisfaction of their existing smaller consumer base. I wager tat everyone owning a HMD today would trade it for the new product so they aren't "losing" anything. They just aren't realising the enormous potential increase to their consumer base for a roughly equivalent commitment of money and resources.

Their (Oculus) target are not the 1-3% PC-Heavy users (with latest GPUs), their target is the remaining 97% which ca not afford a new rig or a new GPU (assuming they can afford the VR device).

But it is exactly Nvidia and Valve's target market. This is why I'm watching their next moves in VR. As a hardware vendor Nvidia particularly has jumped all-in on VR. It is in their interest to stimulate demand for their newest GPUs with specific VR enhancements which they have already paid for in R&D, and to maintain demand for successive generations by pushing current hardware beyond its capability.

The only real thing that Oculus could do is ... develop well the foveat rendering technique

That is exactly what the entire industry have been working on for the last year. Nvidia Pascal already had hardware accelerated support for foveated rendering on the 1080 (at least). What is holding us back the most is game developers sitting on the fence wrt emerging leaders and standards in VR APIs, and failing to take full advantage of the hardware specific acceleration shipped by vendors like Nvidia today.

 

 

The only small (very very small) group that complaint a bit about current Rift resolution are the Heavy Flight Sim users (DCS, IL-2, etc) and also most of us enjoy the experience (prefer immersion over a 4K monitor).

I disagree completely here. Head on over to Reddit and any other forum with channels for VR and the pervasive complaints/wishes from ALL desktop VR users today concern resolution, FOV and pixel density (these are tightly coupled).

 

 

You are right, I just wanted to point out they were not USD. BTW, we have same problem in Europe. When in the US the Rift is sold by 350$, here in Europe they convert USD = EUR, so 350€ despite the rate is around 1.2. Then they put another 100€, so final price is 449€! plus shipping. 

Here we also have restrictive laws and trade practices that limit our ability to circumvent the Australia Tax and the large body of water surrounding us that restrict competition in pricing. Basically is you see a USD price for something, double it for landed AUD price, then add a bit more for price gouging because it is limited supply. That includes anything shipped directly from China or Taiwan - which defies explanation based upon cost of freight alone.