Bodenplatte - land units.

[unreasonable]

Thinking about Bodenplatte: with the introduction of the UK and USA into the game in their own colours, rather than as lend lease, we are going to need land units for the Bodenplatte map representing UK and US land forces.

 

In the long run some of these might make it into Tank Crew as well but for the moment I am just thinking about targets/objects for missions: and of course AA guns.

 

There is a nice site on UK equipment here: may be helpful for basic data for developers (which includes an armour penetration utility).

 

http://www.wwiiequipment.com/

 

To roughly mirror what the German and Soviet forces currently have for the British Army and RAF land units we need something like:

 

Bofors 40mm AA Gun

3.7 Inch AA Gun

 

25 Pounder Field Gun

6 Pounder AT Gun

 

For tanks the Sherman and Sherman Firefly would probably be OK. A Churchill Crocodile would be good....

 

Lorries - 3 ton truck, fuel bowser?

 

Vickers 303 HMG team

 

Anything else obvious?  Can someone with knowledge of US Army put together an equivalent list?

 

 

[=RvE=Windmills]

We'd probably have the 3.7cm and quad 20mm anti air for Germany added, both stationary and mobile variants (halftrack mounted there are tons of variants). Perhaps Wirbelwind as well if we're feeling greedy?

 

US/UK would have bofors and M45 quad .50 emplacements. The only likely mobile variant that springs to mind is the M16 MGMC, there were heavier mobile AA units but iirc none were particularly common.

 

For tanks you'd have several variants for Shermans (76/75mm), a lot of variants are possible but likely not that necessary. You'd have tank destroyers as an option, M10/18. Light units like Greyhounds/Stuarts and Tetrarch's seem likely. Pershing is a possibility. Brits would also use shermans, though Cromwell/churchill would add some variety if possible.

 

Germans would certainly need an extension of their armour line up, Panthers/Tigers at the very least, possibly king tigers, H model P4. New light units, late model assault guns (late model stug, possibly heavier ones like Jagdpanzer 4 etc)

Edited December 30, 2017 by Windmills

[HagarTheHorrible]

Given how BoX is used I would think a White car or half track with Quad 20's is a must for convoy duty.

Edited December 30, 2017 by HagarTheHorrible

[Finkeren]

I would say an open-topped tank destroyer like the M10 or M18 would make an interesting target.

[csThor]

The german list of potential vehicles or objects pretty long:

 

- Tiger II Ausf. B

- Panzer IV Ausf. J

- Panther Ausf. G (late)

- Panzerjäger 38 (also erroneously known as Hetzer)

- StuG 40 Ausf. G (last model)

- StuG IV (late)

- Jagdpanzer IV/L70 (Vomag)

- Jagdpanther (late)

- 15 cm sFH 18 SFL Hummel

- 10.5 cm lFH 18 SFL Wespe

- Flakpanzer IV Wirbelwind (20mm Flakvierling 38)

- Flakpanzer IV Ostwind (3.7cm Flag 36)

- SdKfz 7/1 with 20mm Flakvierling 38

- SdKfz 7/2 with 3.7cm Flak 36

- SdKfz 250/1 Ausf. B

- SdKfz 251/1 Ausf. D

- Schwerer Wehrmachtsschlepper (transport, light & medium Flak, 15cm Multiple Rocket Launcher with 15cm Nebelwerfer 41)

- MG 42

- 15cm Nebelwerfer 41

- 21cm Nebelwerfer 42

 

And that is a pretty condensed version. Artillery was pretty diverse and used a mix of many light, medium and especially heavy weapons (up to 17 or 21cm caliber).

Edited December 30, 2017 by csThor

[unreasonable]

The German potential list is long - they used such a large number of variants, mostly in small numbers. I was hoping we could put together a concise list that more or less corresponds to the range we currently have in BoX E.Front - to get an initial offering of the basics. Hence my rather short UK short-list.

So if you could only have 2 tanks, 2 other afvs, 2 AA guns, 2 AT guns, 2 general transport - what would they be?

[migmadmarine]

Do we know what German armor we are getting in BOK that might be still in use for Bodenplatte? Tiger I H would be a bit out of date, as would the Panther D, don't recall what version of Panzer IV we get in bodenplatte. 

[csThor]

So if you could only have 2 tanks, 2 other afvs, 2 AA guns, 2 AT guns, 2 general transport - what would they be?

 

 

Puh, very difficult decision.

 

Regarding AT and static Flak we're pretty covered Germany-wise, so I'd opt for self-propelled AAA and tank hunters. From my list I'd pick the jagdpanzer IV/L70 (Vomag) and the Panzerjäger 38 as well as the Flakpanzer IV Wirbelwind (to have a better protected mobile AAA platform). I think the armored SdKfz 7/1 ad 7/2 would be a bit too manpower intensive given they'd have to be done from scratch (same as the schwerer Wehrmachtsschlepper) and the Ostwind was too rare. I'd insist, however, on the SdKfz 251/1 Ausf D as it's based on the currently available SdKfz 251 but has the simplified fuselage form. If the smaller SdKfz 250 Ausf. B could be done I'd be happy but it's not as essential as the 251.

 

Artillery-wise I'd go for one of the two Nebelwerfer (probably the 15cm version) as rocket launchers featured heavily in the fighting in the Ardennes and later on (cause they were a lot cheaper to produce than ordinary guns).

 

Tanks, however, are a problem. The late Panther Ausf. G and the Panzer IV Ausf. J were the standard tanks in pretty much any german armored division by this time so both are must-haves in my book. But leaving out the iconic Tiger II Ausf B? That would be heresy, wouldn't it?

 

 

 

 

Do we know what German armor we are getting in BOK that might be still in use for Bodenplatte?

 

Actually none. The tank designs changed drastically even on the Panzer IV (which was seriously up-armored starting with the Ausf. H in 1943) and the introduction of the Panther. The Tiger I production ceased in  August 1944 and by late 1944 there were almost none left on the Western Front, being replaced by the newer and meaner Tiger II Ausf. B which was even more heavily armed and armored.

Edited December 30, 2017 by csThor

[unreasonable]

@thenorm  Good question - TBH I cannot find any mention of new armour for Kuban in store or DD, but it might be there somewhere.  DD for Bodenplatte says new ground units (obviously) but not what they are to be, so perhaps still time to have an input.

 

But I do not think that a long wishlist is going to work - each of UK, US and Germany have a modest line up of the most representative types to start off seems more likely.

 

 

Puh, very difficult decision.

 

Regarding AT 

 

I though the AT was the easy one for the Germans: same as for what we have now: first choice would be whatever was standard for infantry in late war - 75mm pak 40, same as now. Then the Flak 37 in AT role.

 

There does need to be an infantry AT team - PzSchreck, PzFaust to keep the tankies honest, even if it is immobile like the HMG team.   . 

[Jade_Monkey]

I'm looking forward to an expanded assortment of ground vehicles/units.

I think Bodenplatte and Tank Crew will bring good stuff in this area.

 

I also hope that skilled community members are able to make many more ground objects such as pillboxes, more trenches/mg emplacements and other assets that bring immersion.

Someone already made the Marder and other tanks, I hope this is just the beginning.

[ShamrockOneFive]

We haven't heard much of anything about any new vehicles for Kuban. They may not give them to us right away... they have a whole team building new objects for the Tank Crew Prokhorovka operation and the time periods on the Kursk battle overlap with the Kuban battle.

[migmadmarine]

There must be some new armor coming at least, I remember some screenie in a dev diary showing T-34/76 mod.43s, so I assume there will be others. Would Panzer IVH have been in Kuban? I'm dreadful at remembering dates off the top of my head. 

 

[edit, I see the remark above about overlapping with Kursk, so IVGs like we're getting in Tank Crew, though I believe early IV Hs were at kursk?]

Edited December 31, 2017 by thenorm

[unreasonable]

True that Tank Crew complicates things with Kuban.  My basic thought here is not so much what people want to drive around in in a late 44-45 version of TC, but more what we need as mission designers to get a broadly plausible look to our air missions on the Bodenplatte map. Hence a multiplicity of almost the same tanks that are hard to differentiate from the air is far less important than getting the basic artillery, AA, vehicle mix right. 

 

I agree with csThor that a MkIV, Panther and Tiger variant would be necessary for the Germans as they are each so distinct. They hardly used Light tanks by that stage of the war.

 

For UK I would like to see a basic Sherman and Sherman Firefly and an armoured car - for some reason, the British Army loves armoured cars. Daimler or Humber.   There are some others that would be fun for TC - did I mention Churchill Crocodile?

For US basic Sherman, M5 Stuart and M18 Tank Destroyer. 

 

A wider variety of tank types is obviously good for a TC expansion, but not so necessary from an aviation pov.  

[csThor]

Would Panzer IVH have been in Kuban?

 

[edit, I see the remark above about overlapping with Kursk, so IVGs like we're getting in Tank Crew, though I believe early IV Hs were at kursk?]

Production switched from Ausf. G to the earliest incarnation of Ausf. H only in April 1943. For Operation Citadel it is possible, that a handful of early Ausf. H models were sent to increase tank numbers, but I find it more likely that they only came post-Citadel in numbers worth mentioning. For Kursk the Ausf. G is farmore relevant.

 

As for Kuban I don't think any german armored forces beyond StuG and some attached Tank Destroyer units were present. 1st Panzer Army was withdrawn via Rostov and keeping armored units of mentionable strength in such a bridgehead would require herculean logistical efforts. IIRC there were no german tanks at Kuban.

Edited December 31, 2017 by csThor

[1_Robert_]

I for one would be ok with them skipping right over Kuban as far as ground unit development, and get us some fresh new units for Boden.

With all that’s left with Kuban, and now FC, TB, and BoBp, there will need to be compromises and prioritizatiin, and I’m good with the current ground units for now.

Just my opinion.

Happy new year

[CSW_606_Temp]

ONLY one think about AA discision. 

I want realistic AA, but we have not Bofors. Bofors was most commmon medium range AA on Airfield, trucks, ships, dugouts etc.

No Bofors no AA realistic balance. 

We need some compromise about this.

Edited February 11, 2021 by CSW_606_Temp
Gramatik