Adjusting Force Feedback in CLIFFS OF DOVER - BLITZ

[BOO]

1 hour ago, batmacumba said:

 

That sucks. Thanks for reporting. Is this something everyone experiences?

 

I would suggest the following course of action, then, in this whole FFB saga:

 

1. Implement support for multiple FFB devices;

2. Implement motion and telemetry streams;

3. Fix standard DX FFB bugs.

 

Number #2 is something I had already mapped and it would work around these bugs, I imagine, while also making the motion platform and simshaker people happy.

 

4. By Tuesday Next. 🙂 

 

For number 1, I think fixing the regular DX FFB bugs (3) and relemetary export (2) would be enough. If you need a hand....joking...wouldnt know where to start.   From my place of ignorance though,  DX FFB is DX FFB - it works or it dont. 

 

Maybe a cohort of reliable FFB users to report? There should still be a few old hands around with Sidewinders and planty of experience with those and a few on here with Beasts and Rhinos. Moza users.......well Moza has largely ripped off VP software so whats good for VP will be good for Moza (a month or so later and with some cod Chinese translation) 🙂. I can possibly source my old Sidewinder2 also. Obviously if TFS cant fulful the demand.

 

When you get to the point of telemetry export, Id speak to Number481 and Smitty on the VP Discord. They are the main "fixers" of all things Telem. I assume Beast has its own version of them too. 

 

I know this is not a current priority and I am repeating myself but FFB is on the upswing. Virpil and Wingding (whatever they are called) have FFB plans to. Wont be cheap but simmers dont really do cheap if they like something so its likely to become an equal, if not more important "tick" for a title than VR. 

 

In the meantime I'd go back to flying what aircraft are feee from the bugz....so the Bf108 then 🙂 

 

Oh - and Number 481 mentioned that the whole controller ordering thing IS mentioned in manual but the instrictions of reasons are not made very clear.  It also relates to the older, 32 bit version. Havnet checked. Im a man. I have no need of manuals. 

 

oh-Oh - On the ATAG download section, under game guides is my orginal fix guide. It better describes the issues and how I fixed them in 4.312. Might be of some use to tracking the faults. Might not. 

 

Edited December 21, 2024 by BOO

[BOO]

@batmacumba So..I realise this is getting a little stalker-ish now. 

 

Ive had a good play about in working out how to negate the FFB drop out/weapons issue.  It is pretty much as before (not sure what I was going wrong). 

 

So - in any cannon or mix gun machine you need to have cannon and Mg bourd to different buttons.  If you have a two stage trigger type set up and normally bind stage 1 to MGs and 2 to MG&Cannon you can keep this but just add a keyboard binding for the cannon as its just there to trouble shoot. 

 

Start any mission SP or MP and get up off the ground. Get the plane up to above 350km/h / 220mph and squirt the MGs. If the FFB is fubar all will go limp. If to doesnt you are golden.

 

In the event of FFB stage fright, bring the aircraft down to below 320 km/h / 195 mph and the spring should return.

Accelerate back to above 350km/h / 220mph and fire the CANNON ONLY   If the FFB sticks great - fixed, if if goes all limp...

Bring the aircraft down to 320 km/h / 195 mph and the spring should return but this time remain unaffected by both MG and Cannon fire going forward 

 

Once done the fix should last a whole session regardless of respawns. In testing, the fix also survived closing the game several times and even a reboot. This also seems to indemfify me  against loss of FFB on weapons release. Not tested with AI gunners but i think the effect should be similar. 

 

Tested with Spitfire MkVb, 109 E, 109E/B and Hurricane IId which I think covers all the FF effect files including mortar. 

 

As far as I can tell, taking a Spit Vb or 109 for a quick spin is all you need to do at the start of a session to immunise yourself. 

 

Not tested ground starts as I dont have all my gear set up and trying to do it without rudder was.......complicated.  - If all is the same as it was (and it appears to be) - Alt tabing should solve that particualr problem. 

 

So fixes to bugz that need crushing for sure but its get the FFB to a useable state. 

[batmacumba]

14 hours ago, BOO said:

@batmacumba So..I realise this is getting a little stalker-ish now. 

 

Ive had a good play about in working out how to negate the FFB drop out/weapons issue.  It is pretty much as before (not sure what I was going wrong). 

 

So - in any cannon or mix gun machine you need to have cannon and Mg bourd to different buttons.  If you have a two stage trigger type set up and normally bind stage 1 to MGs and 2 to MG&Cannon you can keep this but just add a keyboard binding for the cannon as its just there to trouble shoot. 

 

Start any mission SP or MP and get up off the ground. Get the plane up to above 350km/h / 220mph and squirt the MGs. If the FFB is fubar all will go limp. If to doesnt you are golden.

 

In the event of FFB stage fright, bring the aircraft down to below 320 km/h / 195 mph and the spring should return.

Accelerate back to above 350km/h / 220mph and fire the CANNON ONLY   If the FFB sticks great - fixed, if if goes all limp...

Bring the aircraft down to 320 km/h / 195 mph and the spring should return but this time remain unaffected by both MG and Cannon fire going forward 

 

Once done the fix should last a whole session regardless of respawns. In testing, the fix also survived closing the game several times and even a reboot. This also seems to indemfify me  against loss of FFB on weapons release. Not tested with AI gunners but i think the effect should be similar. 

 

Tested with Spitfire MkVb, 109 E, 109E/B and Hurricane IId which I think covers all the FF effect files including mortar. 

 

As far as I can tell, taking a Spit Vb or 109 for a quick spin is all you need to do at the start of a session to immunise yourself. 

 

Not tested ground starts as I dont have all my gear set up and trying to do it without rudder was.......complicated.  - If all is the same as it was (and it appears to be) - Alt tabing should solve that particualr problem. 

 

So fixes to bugz that need crushing for sure but its get the FFB to a useable state. 

Thanks for that. It sounds like a fucking mess, to be honest. 

 

I'll try to get my hands on a regular old DX FFB device to test this. I think the debug version we use for development should probably show me more info about what's going on. When I get the time and have news, I'll update you here. 🙏

[BOO]

5 hours ago, batmacumba said:

Thanks for that. It sounds like a fucking mess, to be honest. 

 

I'll try to get my hands on a regular old DX FFB device to test this. I think the debug version we use for development should probably show me more info about what's going on. When I get the time and have news, I'll update you here. 🙏

 

No worries.  One little thing to add is that the "Punch" file in the FB folder is cuasing issues when the plane is on the ground and landing. It throws the stick aboot violently and oddly to the point that with a more powerful new gen FFB, it could cause inhury or damage to the unit. Its probably also what was causing Vitus's ground start issues.  

 

Ive had to use fedit to significantly reduce the amplitude. 

 

Cheers

Edited December 22, 2024 by BOO

[PO_Baldrick]

On 12/1/2024 at 3:11 AM, batmacumba said:

Hey Virus, thanks for reaching out. We are aware of the issue with newer FFB joys. I believe that the problem is Cliffs would need to stream telemetry data to the FFB application, and we don't support that feature at the moment. I'm looking into this for the future, but unfortunately we have other urgent priorities and we can't make any promises.

To add to your list, a telemetry data stream is also needed for jetseat/shaker support. Simshaker Wings currently supports GB using the telemetry stream so I would hope the requirement is just for telemetry so the Simshaker authors (and others) can do their thing rather than an additional piece of work for TFS.

 

 

[koko]

Hey guys!

I’ve been using the VPForce Joystick and Rudders (both DIY) for about 10 months now.

I primarily fly the Bf 109 series, so my observations are based on the Force Feedback (FFB) behavior in this particular aircraft type.

 

Here are my findings:

• I have never experienced haptic effects turning off entirely - only the dynamic forces (control forces).

• The dynamic force turns off only once when firing the cannon for the first time at speeds > 320 km/h.

• The dynamic force turns off every time when firing the cannon for the first time at speeds < 320 km/h, and for subsequent shots at any speed.

Interestingly, this issue can be resolved by firing a short burst with the machine gun after using the cannon. Once the dynamic force reconnects, everything functions as expected. Strange, but true. I tested this several times, and the results were consistent every time.

 

@batmacumba

I highly recommend reaching out to walmis or Number421 on the VPForce Discord channel. Both are incredibly friendly and helpful and can provide valuable insights into anything related to FFB.

About a year ago, Number421 mentioned that he would add support for CloD to the TelemFFB software if someone could provide him with the telemetry parameters TelemFFB needs to access.

I can’t emphasize enough how critical telemetry software is in bridging the gap between the game and FFB devices. Since I also use FFB rudders, and TelemFFB supports multiple FFB devices in DCS, the difference for me between flying the Kurfürst in DCS versus the Friedrich in CloD is like driving a brand-new Mercedes versus a vintage Ford Model A.

[batmacumba]

Thanks Koko and Baldrick. As I said, Funk from TFS and I had already identified the need to implement the motion/telemetry stream, for motion platform, sim shaker, and newer FFB joys.

 

My plan, when I get the time for this, is to copy IL2 GB output format, so that all software compatible with GB would already be compatible with Cliffs 👍

[Mysticpuma]

1 hour ago, batmacumba said:

Thanks Koko and Baldrick. As I said, Funk from TFS and I had already identified the need to implement the motion/telemetry stream, for motion platform, sim shaker, and newer FFB joys.

 

My plan, when I get the time for this, is to copy IL2 GB output format, so that all software compatible with GB would already be compatible with Cliffs 👍

To be honest, I don't have FFB and likely never will, but hats off to you, what a breath of fresh air it is to have community engagement from a member of the team and further to that, someone who is giving the impression of being genuinely interested in solving this issue.

Great work 🤟

 

[batmacumba]

Hi guys,

 

Do we have any players with multiple FFB devices in the Beta?

 

Cheers

[BOO]

4 hours ago, batmacumba said:

Hi guys,

 

Do we have any players with multiple FFB devices in the Beta?

 

Cheers

 

I could possibly get my old sidewinder back as well as the rhino but Im not in the beta group. 

[koko]

6 hours ago, batmacumba said:

Hi guys,

 

Do we have any players with multiple FFB devices in the Beta?

 

Cheers

I have Rhino FFB Joystick and Rhino FFB Rudders. Both of them use their own controller board, so they appear as separate devices in Windows. I am also ready and willing to help in any way I can. 🫡

I highly recommend watching this video.

 

I'm in the Beta too

 

-koko-

 

Edited January 2 by koko

[batmacumba]

42 minutes ago, koko said:

I have Rhino FFB Joystick and Rhino FFB Rudders. Both of them use their own controller board, so they appear as separate devices in Windows. I am also ready and willing to help in any way I can. 🫡

I highly recommend watching this video.

 

I'm in the Beta too

 

-koko-

 

 

Hi, Koko! 

 

I take it you were having this issue then of only experimenting FFB effects in one of your devices in Cliffs?

 

If you're in the beta, would you be able to test the next version and let me know if the problem is solved, and if there are new problems? Once we get this smoothed out, I think we can merge it to the stable version as well.

 

Btw, nice setup! 😍

Edited January 2 by batmacumba

[koko]

2 hours ago, batmacumba said:

 

Hi, Koko! 

 

I take it you were having this issue then of only experimenting FFB effects in one of your devices in Cliffs?

Yes, exactly. Windows recognizes my joystick as the primary FFB device and the rudders as a regular game controller.

2 hours ago, batmacumba said:

 

If you're in the beta, would you be able to test the next version and let me know if the problem is solved, and if there are new problems? Once we get this smoothed out, I think we can merge it to the stable version as well.

Of course, I’ll provide feedback. What method would you prefer for giving feedback? This, ATAG, or Private?

2 hours ago, batmacumba said:

 

Btw, nice setup! 😍

Thanks, I really love my Rhinos 😎 The basic feel is very smooth and precise. In the video, the guy explains the difference between a standard joystick and this level of FFB joystick very well. The video also covers the basics of how to adjust the control forces specifically for piston-engine aircraft. FFBeast seems to have an excellent program 👍

[batmacumba]

6 hours ago, koko said:

Yes, exactly. Windows recognizes my joystick as the primary FFB device and the rudders as a regular game controller.

Of course, I’ll provide feedback. What method would you prefer for giving feedback? This, ATAG, or Private?

Thanks, I really love my Rhinos 😎 The basic feel is very smooth and precise. In the video, the guy explains the difference between a standard joystick and this level of FFB joystick very well. The video also covers the basics of how to adjust the control forces specifically for piston-engine aircraft. FFBeast seems to have an excellent program 👍

 

I would prefer if you gave me feedback in the new Discord server (it should be open before the next beta version 😃), if you are a user of Discord. If not, then here is fine. Thanks!

Edited January 2 by batmacumba

[batmacumba]

Hey guys,

 

Just thought I would give you an update:

 

I bought a Sidewinder FFB2 to test this, so we've removed it from the next beta because I can test it myself.

 

The good news is FFB is working with multiple devices in my computer, but there are still some bugs with the effects that must be fixed. Since I have an FFB device now, this will be much easier to debug. 👍

[koko]

5 hours ago, batmacumba said:

The good news is FFB is working with multiple devices in my computer

 

Does this mean that the game can now recognize multiple FFB devices?

[Aapje]

3 hours ago, koko said:

 

Does this mean that the game can now recognize multiple FFB devices?

I think that this refers to the bug where the game would send the FFB effects only to the first controller that it detects.

[koko]

47 minutes ago, Aapje said:

I think that this refers to the bug where the game would send the FFB effects only to the first controller that it detects.

 

Hey Aapje S> I agree, I understood it the same way.

 

However, I wanted to confirm this with batmacumba, because this doesn’t solve the original issue. I have two real FFB devices and four regular controllers, and I haven’t had any issues with having multiple controllers. Of course, at the moment, only one of my FFB devices works as an FFB controller.

 

[batmacumba]

 

7 hours ago, koko said:

 

Does this mean that the game can now recognize multiple FFB devices?

 

It means that it will soon support multiple FFB devices, yes.

Edited January 10 by batmacumba

[koko]

6 hours ago, batmacumba said:

It means that it will soon support multiple FFB devices, yes.

 

Thank you, batmacumba. I really appreciate everything you’re doing to improve this game 🫡

[Amarok]

Moin comrades,

 

I also use a Sidewinder FFB2.
I could observe with Me109s that when the cannons are triggered or bombs are dropped, the FFB forces are lost.
This can be remedied by pulling steeply upwards at a speed > 300 km/h. Then most of the FFB forces return.

[batmacumba]

3 hours ago, Amarok said:

Moin comrades,

 

I also use a Sidewinder FFB2.
I could observe with Me109s that when the cannons are triggered or bombs are dropped, the FFB forces are lost.
This can be remedied by pulling steeply upwards at a speed > 300 km/h. Then most of the FFB forces return.

 

Hi Amarok, thanks for reporting, that is a known issue. Soon, we will drop a patch for FFB, then if you could test it again I would be grateful. 🙌

[Dawson]

I sometimes use SimFFB to regain FFB after it is lost. I mapped F11 to "Init dinput" and a single press regains FFB. The problem is remembering to start SimFFB before a flight. To my mind it may be a simple task to add a similar FFB reset option right in CloD.

 

SimFFB's github: https://github.com/joeyjojojunior/simFFB

 

 

[batmacumba]

Hi all!

 

To those of you who are beta testers, can you update to the latest version (5.427) and retest FFB? Especially @koko, whenever possible. To those of you who are not beta testers, we have plans to merge this to the stable line as well soon.

 

I'm also interested in finding out if the "losing FFB effects after dropping bombs or shooting cannons" bug is still reproducing as well. We did not address this issue specifically, but we did do a major refactor of a part of the FFB implementation, so I'm curious if that issue is still reproducing.

 

Important: Some of the .ffe files have changed:

autocannon.ffe (unused)

autocannon_0.ffe (new)

autocannon_1.ffe (new)

mortar.ffe (unused)

mortar_0.ffe (new)

mortar_1.ffe (new)

machinegun.ffe (unused)

machinegun_0.ffe (new)

machinegun_1.ffe (new)

 

If you have modifications in .ffe files that you wish to keep, you can overwrite the new files with the unused ones, like this:

1. Delete autocannon_0.ffe and autocannon_1.ffe;

2. Rename your modified autocannon.ffe to autocannon_0.ffe;

3. Duplicate autocannon_0.ffe, and rename it to autocannon_1.ffe;

4. Do the same for mortar and machinegun, if you wish.

 

The _0 and _1 files are expected to be identical. Artist also added a README to that folder, explaining this briefly. Please, let me know if there are any doubts o7o7

 

[koko]

Both the Joystick and Rudders function as FFB controllers. Both devices receive both dynamic force and haptic effects. However, the dynamic force is lost and restored in exactly the same manner as previously described. The haptic effects, however, remain active at all times.

 

I will test more tomorrow when I have more time.

[BOO]

54 minutes ago, koko said:

Both the Joystick and Rudders function as FFB controllers. Both devices receive both dynamic force and haptic effects. However, the dynamic force is lost and restored in exactly the same manner as previously described. The haptic effects, however, remain active at all times.

 

I will test more tomorrow when I have more time.

 

@batmacumba does this mean Clod now has the capability to send FFB instructions to all and any controllers, not just the first it sees? This is going to cost me more money. 

 

Additionally @Dawson raises a good point - FFB drop outs are not uncommon in sims, Incorportating the re-initiate code within the game and giving it a key binding is not a bad idea at all. 

[batmacumba]

1 hour ago, BOO said:

 

@batmacumba does this mean Clod now has the capability to send FFB instructions to all and any controllers, not just the first it sees? This is going to cost me more money. 

 

Additionally @Dawson raises a good point - FFB drop outs are not uncommon in sims, Incorportating the re-initiate code within the game and giving it a key binding is not a bad idea at all. 

 

Yes. There is a limit of 16 FFB devices.

 

About the dropouts, I will analyze and try to fix this. I understand it's the "spring" effect which is being interrupted. I would rather fix the dropouts and make the game restart it automatically if necessary, than having a binding for that.

Edited January 20 by batmacumba

[koko]

I did some more testing, but I didn’t notice anything new regarding the spring bug.

 

The only observation I made is that the point where the spring effect returns is always at 350 km/h TAS (Note: The TAS value is not the same as the Z_VelocityTAS parameter value) I tried this at several altitudes, from sea level up to 6 km. So, this seems to be some kind of constant. Hopefully, this helps in finding the cause of the spring bug.

 

I also tried to find another way to get out of the situation where the spring effect is repeatedly lost when pressing the cannon/bomb button, but I couldn’t find any other solution than pressing the machine gun button.

[Dawson]

I don't notice any FFB changes in the beta. The effect files look the same in fedit. What are the changes with in the new files?

 

I'm using an MS FFB2 if this was aimed at the newer sticks.

[Amarok]

Moin comrades,

 

does anyone use the Microsoft Sidewinder FFB2 under Win11

 

and does FFB work under Win11?

[batmacumba]

8 hours ago, Dawson said:

I don't notice any FFB changes in the beta. The effect files look the same in fedit. What are the changes with in the new files?

 

I'm using an MS FFB2 if this was aimed at the newer sticks.

 

Hi Dawson, the changes were in code, not in the .ffe files. We've changed the game to support multiple FFB devices, because supporting only one was causing problems even for people who only had one.

 

o7

[taxillus13]

Hi Amarok,

 

 

I use the MS FFB2 with Win 11 and FFB works.

 

Same way it did with Win 10, including the issues described in this thread

[BENKOE]

 

@koko, you are right.

The Equivalent Airspeed (EAS) can be considered as a constant in this context.

 

I will focus on the simplified aerodynamics and consequences of possible calculations via the hydrostatic equation and the ideal gas law. 350 km/h airspeed is therefore taken as 350 km/h EAS. 350 km/h EAS under commonly known standard conditions would produce the same incompressible dynamic pressure (Qv) that is produced as at True Airspeed (TAS) for the given aircraft altitude. The incompressible dynamic pressure is therefore a measurable pressure quantity that should affect the stick force feedback (ffb) relative to the air:

 

(1) Team Fusion Blitz! v5.045, where T,msl = 273,15 + 15° = 288.15 [Kelvin]
350km/h EAS at H,msl ~ 57.9 hPa (Qv) = 350 km/h (rounded) TAS at 0 H.m
350km/h EAS at H,msl ~ 57.9 hPa (Qv) = 452 km/h (rounded) TAS at 5000 H.m
350km/h EAS at H,msl ~ 57.9 hPa (Qv) = 477 km/h (rounded) TAS at 6000 H,m

 

(2) Team Fusion Desert Wings v5.045, where T,msl = 273,15 + 27 = 300.15 [Kelvin]
350km/h EAS at H,msl ~ 57.9 hPa (Qv) = 357 km/h TAS (rounded) at 0 H.m
350km/h EAS at H,msl ~ 57.9 hPa (Qv) = 462 km/h TAS (rounded) at 5000 H.m
350km/h EAS at H,msl ~ 57.9 hPa (Qv) = 488 km/h TAS (rounded) at 6000 H,m

 

Please note:
The Indicated Airspeed (IAS) is only equal to the Equivalent Airspeed (EAS) if the airspeed indicator is calibrated for standard conditions (ICAN/ISA) where QNH = 1013.2 hPA. Nearly all WWII airspeed indicators were corrected for constant mean air pressure conditions at sea level in the battle area they were used.  In other words, this pressure altitude displacement makes it possible to obtain nearly the same weight of air above the height considere in both the actual and standard atmosphere.

 

On 1/21/2025 at 4:17 PM, koko said:

I did some more testing, but I didn’t notice anything new regarding the spring bug.

 

The only observation I made is that the point where the spring effect returns is always at 350 km/h TAS (Note: The TAS value is not the same as the Z_VelocityTAS parameter value) I tried this at several altitudes, from sea level up to 6 km. So, this seems to be some kind of constant. Hopefully, this helps in finding the cause of the spring bug.

 

I also tried to find another way to get out of the situation where the spring effect is repeatedly lost when pressing the cannon/bomb button, but I couldn’t find any other solution than pressing the machine gun button.

 

Edited January 24 by BENKOE

[BENKOE]

A bit of nostalgia is allowed, isn't it?