If I buy "Bodenplatte"....?

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Screenshot_2017-12-19-12-24-20-1.png

 

"And we flew our F-35's underneath the bridge down by the river." - A. Galland, 1996.

 

No, seriously... Take Galland's accounts of anything with a hefty dose of suspicion. I've collected lots of correspondences, writing, photographs, etc. and many, if not the majority, of things Galland stated were highly politicized and tailored to fit a narrative.

 

"If vee only hat more two-sechs-twos." 

[LukeFF]

This is the account given in Green Hearts: First in Combat with the Dora 9:

 

Meanwhile, Mustangs of the 20th and 357th Fighter Groups had spotted Major Nowotny's Me 262 south of Dümmer Lake. Lt. Edward Haydon of the 357th Fighter Group wrote in his combat report:

 

[...] I gave chase drawing maximum power, and as I was beginning to close on the 262 I was slowly over-taken by ships of the 20th Fighter Group caught up with me. At this time the Me 262 led us across an airfield south of Dümmer Lake which immediately let go with all of its flak at us. The Me 262 pulled up and rolled over on its back, crashing about 100 feet in front of me, at which time I was about 50 feet high. The pilot was not seen to bale [sic] out. [...]

 

The leading P-51 of the 20th Fighter Group mentioned by Lt. Haydon was flown by Capt. Ernest Fiebelkorn. He, too, was directly behind Nowotny's Me 262 when it suddenly crashed. At this point neither Capt. Fiebelkorn nor Lt. Haydon had opened fire. So what happened in those seconds? Had Nowotny's aircraft developed mechanical problems or was his "White 8" hit by German anti-aircraft fire? And if so, over which airfield did the aircraft come under anti-aircraft fire? There were three possible airfields south of Dümmer Lake - Vörden, Hesepe, and Achmer. Achmer can be eliminated, for anti-aircraft fire would have been heard by the many people present there. We are left with Vörden and Hesepe, two closely-sited airfieds over which the incident could well have happened.

 

At this point the speculation begins, but it will not be continued here. The reason why Major Nowotny crashed near Epe, 5 kilometers east of the airfield at Hesepe, at about 12:45 pm will probably never be explained. It seems most likely, however, that damage from another, previous air combat led to Nowotny's crash. In any case, Me 262s were claimed shot down by Lt. Maurice of the 361st Fighter Group 4 kilometers west of Meppen at 12:30 pm, and by Stevens of the 364th Fighter Group in the Dümmer area at 12:45 pm. Since there were no other jets in the air apart from Major Nowotny and Lt. Schall, Maurice and Stevens must also have attacked these two aircraft. What is more, Helmut Lennartz recalls that shortly before he crashed Nowotny radioed, "It's burning!" or "I'm burning!"²⁵ This statement, which suggests that he had been fired on, is almost identical to one made by Uffz. Rathje of 12./JG 54. He recalled:

 

On this day 12. Staffel not only flew airfield cover,²⁶ but both Staffeln [meaning 9. and 12./JG 54 - author's note] were sent after fighter-bombers. In the sky all hell was loose. My aircraft refused to start, therefore I was able to follow everything by radio. A wild mix-up. I heard Nowotny's voice: "Sh-t, my engine is on fire!" It was his last flight.

 

Within minutes, members of Kommando Nowotny were at the Kommandeur's crash site near Epe. Witnesses there stated that the aircraft had dived steeply out the low-lying cloud and exploded just prior to impact.

 

25. Helmut Lennartz was a pilot of Kommando Nowotny and listened to the incident on the radio at Achmer.

26. According to Kommando Nowotny records, 12./JG 54, which was at readiness at Achmer, was not ordered into the air to cover the airfield for the approaching Me 262 of Major Nowotny (conversation with Manfred Boehme 8/95).

Edited December 19, 2017 by LukeFF

[PatrickAWlson]

That corresponds well with Galland's account.  The only person in possession of all of the facts died in the crash, so that's that.  Thanks for the post.

[LukeFF]

That corresponds well with Galland's account. The only person in possession of all of the facts died in the crash, so that's that. Thanks for the post.

No problem! I'd like to see what's in the report filed by Stevens. Might shed some more light on what happened.

[Danziger]

So the FN is a UFO and the 262 is nerfed before any of them have been released...

 

Is this some kind of Luftwhiner preemptive strike?

[Dakpilot]

30mm Mk 108 will also be a peashooter

 

Or so I have heard   from various sources in various threads

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[6./ZG26_Gielow]

Maybe after the engine fire and with all those mustangs closing fast, he lost situational awareness (low altitude and almost overcast)trying to split S or dive to escape through the cloud layer crashing in the process.

[6./ZG26_Custard]

I thought Nowotny was shot down as he was approaching his base.  Could be wrong on that.  I know that Galland was shot down after a run on a group of B25s and not on approach.  

I believe that some sources state he may have had an engine failure and others that he fell to the guns of a P-51 apparently his last words were I'm or its on fire. (as covered above) That being said, Let's not forget Walter Schuck, who was shot down by the P-51 of Joe Peterburs while engaging B-17's in his 262. 

 

Edit: thats a 100% confirmed kill and both men met after the war.

Edited December 19, 2017 by 6./ZG26_Custard

[6./ZG26_Custard]

 

 

30mm Mk 108 will also be a peashooter  

 

You better believe it! This clip never gets old, well maybe a little    

 

[MrNoice]

haha yeah that sums up how it will be XD just kidding

[DSR_A-24]

"And we flew our F-35's underneath the bridge down by the river." - A. Galland, 1996.

 

No, seriously... Take Galland's accounts of anything with a hefty dose of suspicion. I've collected lots of correspondences, writing, photographs, etc. and many, if not the majority, of things Galland stated were highly politicized and tailored to fit a narrative.

 

"If vee only hat more two-sechs-twos." 

Do you have any examples?

[LukeFF]

I am certain you can give us some examples. I am always a little bit sceptical in case of someone else denigrating someone. Because I do that, too. That's why I know it too good.

 

Galland claimed that if Hitler hadn't meddled with the Me 262 development program and insisted on a fighter-bomber version that the Luftwaffe could have turned the tide back in Germany's favor WRT the defense of the Reich. All of that has been soundly debunked - the ability of the 262 to carry bombs was a design decision made by Messerschmitt long, long, long before Hitler's supposed meddling, and the number of planes that would have freed up for fighter duties would hardly have been enough to change the course of the air war. Not to mention, Galland totally ignores any sort of response the Allies would have taken had the 262s shown up earlier and in larger numbers - after all, as the saying goes, the enemy also gets a vote.

 

Galland, like many other German generals in the Cold War years, did everything they could to pin all of Germany's military failures on Hitler and deflect all of the blame away from the themselves. That's why what they have to say has to be taken with a heavy dose of salt. 

[Feathered_IV]

Didn't Galland get banned for always whining to the admins about the latest uber plane, then decide to get he and his leaderboard friends  to boycott the game until they changed the planeset?

It sounds oddly familiar... 

[PatrickAWlson]

He has a point of view colored by his experiences.  As a fighter pilot of course he would view everything through that particular lens.  Galland, just like any other bio that I have read, can be incorrect.  I don't mistake that for falsehood.  

[Finkeren]

Galland wrote “The First And The Last” with a view to his future career in the newly arisen Luftwaffe. That book is not a memoir or a simple biased account. It is a resumé of a guy applying for a job and and is just as honest, complete and unbiased as any other resumé, which is to say: not a lot.

[xvii-Dietrich]

This is the account given in Green Hearts: First in Combat with the Dora 9:

 

Meanwhile, Mustangs of the 20th and 357th Fighter Groups had spotted Major Nowotny's Me 262 south of Dümmer Lake. Lt. Edward Haydon of the 357th Fighter Group wrote in his combat report: [...] I gave chase drawing maximum power, and as I was beginning to close on the 262 I was slowly over-taken by ships of the 20th Fighter Group caught up with me. At this time the Me 262 led us across an airfield south of Dümmer Lake which immediately let go with all of its flak at us. The Me 262 pulled up and rolled over on its back, crashing about 100 feet in front of me, at which time I was about 50 feet high. The pilot was not seen to bale [sic] out. [...]

"... crashing about 100 feet in front ... "?  That is only 30 metres. At high speed (I'm guessing 600+ km/h, since it talks about maximum power), that is about 2/10ths of a second flight time. Also, if it was so close, why wasn't the P51 firing?

 

But it also said "... I was slowly over-taken by ships of the 20th Fighter Group ...", so 20th Fight Group aircraft were even closer?

 

The report doesn't really make sense to me.

[Dakpilot]

Rarely do any Pilot reports make absolute sense when analysed carefully.....even mine 

 

Cheers, Dakpilot

[Sunde]

Its not the evading, but rather the difficulty in getting a shot at them that sees opposing players campaigning for their removal.  I rarely saw the 262 available in public servers in Oleg's Il-2 in any numbers or without significant handicaps so as to make them unviable.

 

For sure... The plane will be fielded in either such low numbers, or at an airfield 50 minutes away from the front in order to "balance" the server. If not there would be an uproar from the reds, as happend in 1946 when some servers made 1945 scenario missions and by accident made it possible to fly more than two 262's. 

 

Its gonna be a fun bird to try in SP!

 

[Yogiflight]

 

 

Sunde' timestamp='1513766908' post='548776'] or at an airfield 50 minutes away from the front in order to "balance" the server.

I don't think you have to fear this, as BOX simply has no map, that is big enough to place a 262 far enough behind the front, that you would need 50 minutes with 600+ km/h.

[Feathered_IV]

I don't think you have to fear this, as BOX simply has no map, that is big enough to place a 262 far enough behind the front, that you would need 50 minutes with 600+ km/h.

 

In the old Spits vs 109s server they would lock it at 25% fuel and place the 262 at a distant airfield with an incredibly short runway and nitro-trees at either end.  For good measure it would also have the bomb shackles to curtail its speed during its few minutes of effective combat time. 

 

Long time veterans of public MP arenas will have noted that most admin activity in established servers is devoted to identifying ways that players are enjoying themselves, and placing roadblocks to limit, curtail or deny such behaviour.  The Me-262's use will most definitely be limited in direct proportion to how much fun it is to fly. 

[ShamrockOneFive]

For multiplayer, to some degree anyways, limited numbers of Me262 with bombs only loadouts would be the historically correct condition for the area and the types of operations that the jet fighter was involved with.

 

Of course, offline you can do anything you want

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

Look how long we haven't been able to use the largest bombs on the He111...

[II./JG53Lutzow_z06z33]

All this talk of balance reminds me of call of duty or battlefield where each side has the same guns. Balance is a great way to ruin a game as it removes all accuracy and skill. Early in the original beta Russian pilots who could out fly me were few and far between I respected them and knew most by name, now I can't outrun,out climb,out turn them so I burn in my 109. The 262 will be hard enough to fly because of speed and turn no reason to handicap it like the rest of the Luftwaffe has been since BOS released.

[Tomsk]

All this talk of balance reminds me of call of duty or battlefield where each side has the same guns. Balance is a great way to ruin a game as it removes all accuracy and skill.

Agree completely on changing the planes so they are “balanced” (not that I’m saying 1C has done this). However for competitive MP balancing the scenario (I.e numbers of planes and permitted load outs) is kind of necessary, as one side steam-rolling the other isn’t fun for either team. Of course for SP / co-op it’s a totally different story

[1./KG4_OldJames]

in my opinion the Me262 will be useless without the 4 engine bombers.. the p51s and specially Tempest will destroy it easy and itself cant maneuver well and one bullet in the turbines and it will burn/explode.. so ...

 

I will fly the Tempest, so the 262 should get an easy time there

[Gump]

_{if I buy it, will I get to play it? something has happened since the last time I played (couple months ago) and game crashes 5-15mins. kinda worried about that. yeah I have the 780 card, but so do a lot o f other folks. sure wish coders, whoever/wherever they are, would fix this.}

[SJ_Butcher]

_{if I buy it, will I get to play it? something has happened since the last time I played (couple months ago) and game crashes 5-15mins. kinda worried about that. yeah I have the 780 card, but so do a lot o f other folks. sure wish coders, whoever/wherever they are, would fix this.}

As far as I know is Nvidia fault, not the game fault... Why? Because Nidia does not improve the drivers for old videcards, you should know that if you buy nvidia you will not get more optimization and fixes if your card is two generations old, your card is already legacy, if the debs already talked with them your problem should be in the lowest priority to them, I have a 1070 without a single issue, but I know that I have to jump to next generation because Nvidia do this and AMD is non existent in high end hardware.

 

On topic I think the me 262 will be fun, it's a nice plane and was fun in the old IL-2, is not for all but I had a lot of success in that plane because I like energy fight you can dominate everything with that machine but bad pilots will be more on ground that succesing

[Hauksbee]

OK! I just bought "Battle of Bodenplatte".

[ShamrockOneFive]

Nice!