Bomber crew in 4.5 = snipers AI?

[YoYo]

Hi,

Today I tested fight against bombers. I see that in 4.5 crew of bombers recived Eagle eye.

 

 

Near every time they hit me, kill me or burned out. Even if I dived with 650 km/h speed.

Snipers only?

 

It will be difficult to fly any campaign with this...

[LuftManu]

I think they are better than they were. Getting on the six is deadly now. I am happy as it is but would be nice if they tone down a little the accuracy.

I took down some bombers without being hit

Edited December 16, 2017 by LF_ManuV

[ECV56_Vilks]

Time to change tactics, and attack them from their weak side. There is always a weak spot.

[YoYo]

I tried from the front, six, sides, from boom and zoom. The scenario always was the same - the winner was bomber   (in the first pass, hmmmm....).

[theOden]

Yes, been flying campaign (RAF) and lost my engine in every single encounter with a bomber.

This might be realistic but sure drains the fun out of the missions for a lesser e-pilot like me.

[LuftManu]

The wellington is really hard to down if you get on the six. With the He111 you must hit and run. The blindspot with the tail is huge.

Edited December 16, 2017 by LF_ManuV

[DenUA]

started ... (((

at first- we want the reality!

now- hard-oh-oh-oh, turn back .... (((

[Danziger]

British gunners OP?

[InProgress]

That's why you want to fly 110 ;P if they kill your engine you always have second one ;D

[YoYo]

It will be spoiled immertion for campaignes/missions. For example how to do sucessfull any mission from Desastersoft great campaignes if I have goal to destroy 3 bombers?

No I cant destroy the one... better, I did test with 1 bomber and 4 our plane (as AI). This one bomber shoted down 4 planes. LOL.

Its totaly unrealistic, super duper snipers of the crew of bombers.

 

Please check it in Quick mission, take for example Bf-109 E-3 and try to shot down any bomber, even if You fall down with 650 km/h on the gauge (they hit You!). Near impossible.

If they will fly and fire like in Blitz 4.5 the Great Britan will win the whole air war in the one week only by bombers (with few combat box ;>) ...

 

Pretty please - Team Fusion, do few tone down this Eagle eye of crew of bombers.

I didnt try with FEW bombers but Im affraid it will be TOTAL massacre!

The level on 4.321 with this was ok.

 

Campaignes are unplaybe now.

 

Regards.

Edited December 17, 2017 by YoYo

[BOO]

The issue comes from the campaign not 4.5 surely?.

 

If the old campaign set the gunners at ace/veteran that's what you're gonna get. If it set historically unrealistic targets what can TFS do?  Until someone rewites the campaign parameters or produces a new one it probably gonna stay that way. Having TFS re-nerf the gunners is a backwards step. 

 

Shooting down a bomber does require a lot more now but its not impossible.

[theOden]

Had a look at the "Skill" settings in all RAF campaign files and in general flight lead is 0.7 (or 70%, you get it) and others are at 0.3 (which is "Average" in editor).

 

There are a few skill 1 too but not too many (actually, some wingmen are even skill 0, a minor wonder that they fly at all I guess - unless the game engine interprets 0 as 1 or something random)

 

Did some editor testing in a section (3-ship) Hurricanes meeting up a 3x3-ship Do-17's

 

With group set to 0.3 we still took serious damage but could be related to a tad bit too long non-manouvering on their 6-o'clock.

 

Edited the mis file setting lead to:

0.9 0.1 0.7 0.1 0.7 0.7 0.7 0.7

and wingmen to

0.9 0.1 0.3 0.1 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3

 

This means Basic flying is 90%, advanced flying (incl dogfight) 10% (I imagine bombers do less X-Wing manouvers with this) and most important #4 aerial gunnery 10% with all other skill specifics to 70% lead and 30% wingmen.

 

Now, with the very few tests I did, I think the bomber intercept is closer to what I am used to - I still take hits losing fuel pump oil and ammobelt going debonk etc but I can usually limp back to base, Far from the black oil over windscreen after my first pass as the campaign been for me so far.

 

10 meg big so I can't attach the edited campaign but if interested the campaign folder is in this link:

 

http://odenhouse.servegame.com/campaign_gb.7z

 

unpack, go to [steam\steamapps\common\IL-2 Sturmovik Cliffs of Dover Blitz\parts\bob\mission\campaign\]

move the current folder "campaign_gb" to some backup area and copy the unpacked "campaign_gb" into this folder.

 

Continue flying your campaign (or restart).

 

[Kling]

It will be spoiled immertion for campaignes/missions. For example how to do sucessfull any mission from Desastersoft great campaignes if I have goal to destroy 3 bombers?

No I cant destroy the one... better, I did test with 1 bomber and 4 our plane (as AI). This one bomber shoted down 4 planes. LOL.

Its totaly unrealistic, super duper snipers of the crew of bombers.

 

Please check it in Quick mission, take for example Bf-109 E-3 and try to shot down any bomber, even if You fall down with 650 km/h on the gauge (they hit You!). Near impossible.

If they will fly and fire like in Blitz 4.5 the Great Britan will win the whole air war in the one week only by bombers (with few combat box ;>) ...

 

Pretty please - Team Fusion, do few tone down this Eagle eye of crew of bombers.

I didnt try with FEW bombers but Im affraid it will be TOTAL massacre!

The level on 4.321 with this was ok.

 

Campaignes are unplaybe now.

 

Regards.

Which is funny because in TF4.312 we had complains that the gunners were useless and needed fixing! 

[YoYo]

 Until someone rewites the campaign parameters or produces a new one it probably gonna stay that way. Having TFS re-nerf the gunners is a backwards step. 

 

Im pretty sure that new owner of Desastersoft will do nothing with this. 

[Sokol1]

Which is funny because in TF4.312 we had complains that the gunners were useless and needed fixing! 

 

But this complains are from MP perspective - seems that most gunners are set as Rookie.

 

SP players has different profile, and CLoD SP missions/campaign are very badly done, with extensive use of ACE (1.0) and Rookie (0.0) settings, what produce dumb gunners or fighter wingman using their weapons as water rose or Laser aim gunners and X-Wing fighters. 

 

I don't have problems with this because since Banana's Dramas day I use custom settings for all CloD default missions - a .bat posted by someone in 1C forum in these days, but not every SP player can deal with FMB, and do the boring re-set for several gunners, for several flights, for several missions... is not funny task.

[Lusekofte]

I hope the gunners in the Wellington will be good when it comes, I was fed up about fighters parking on the six on my Heinkel and just had a blast in demolishing it with no danger to themselves . It is not for the fun of it that historically the pilots witch did that did not survive. German fighter pilots adapted their tacktics after what they attacked, when the chek turret came on the B 17 below front attacks was replaced by high energy frontal attacks deflection shooting from 2 or 10 o´clock . There where always a risk, but then again they did not expect , nor had ambitions to shoot down more than 1 bomber , virtual pilots in campaign is not satisfied if they cant get all of them down. In reality bringing down 1 bomber was a group task. They laught by Hitler ambitions on one takeoff means 1 bomber down

[BOO]

But this complains are from MP perspective - seems that most gunners are set as Rookie.

 

SP players has different profile, and CLoD SP missions/campaign are very badly done, with extensive use of ACE (1.0) and Rookie (0.0) settings, what produce dumb gunners or fighter wingman using their weapons as water rose or Laser aim gunners and X-Wing fighters. 

 

I don't have problems with this because since Banana's Dramas day I use custom settings for all CloD default missions - a .bat posted by someone in 1C forum in these days, but not every SP player can deal with FMB, and do the boring re-set for several gunners, for several flights, for several missions... is not funny task.

 

They sure couldn't but could you post up the mission/campaign files you created with that bat to the ATAG site instead (thus saving your bandwidth thereafter)? 

 

Genuine question because I don't know how that SP stuff works

[Sokol1]

This will be a workaround for a problem that should be adjusted in the SP mission files (that use much Rookie and Ace skill, both inadequate) in STEAM install, what will avoid the guys download the game, find SP AI "sniper", go complain or down vote the game in STEAM. Is await the problem happens to propose palliative, instead take measures that prevents the problem.

 

Anyway I find the topic in 1'C forum about adjust gunners skill, but link for .bat files are now dead. 

 

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=31193

 

I guess the author - "Von Pilsen" is another pseudonym of  Heinkil, as the Game Hub blog was owned by then - before became War Thunder Game Hub. Heinkil is away from sim forums at good time.

 

http://bobgamehub.blogspot.com.br/2012/03/ai-settings-in-cliffs-of-dover.html

 

Gunners (Person) skill can be adjusted individually and per plane in the bomber group, using FMB:

 

 

Result in mission code (.mis):

 

[boB_LW_KuFlGr_706.07]

  Flight0  1 2

  Flight1  11 12 13

  Flight2  21 22 23

  Class Aircraft.Ju-88A-1

  Formation VIC3

  CallSign 26

  Fuel 67

  Weapons 1 1 1 3 2 6

  Skill0 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3

  Skill10 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3

  Skill11 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3

  Skill12 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3

  Skill20 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3

  Skill21 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3

  Skill22 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3

  Person1_0 0 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3

  Person1_1 1 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3

  Person1_2 2 0.32 0.32 0.32 0.11 0.32 0.32 0.32 0.32 <<<<<<<<<<< Gunner

  Person1_3 3 0.32 0.32 0.32 0.16 0.32 0.32 0.32 0.32 <<<<<<<<<<< Gunner

 

Edited December 17, 2017 by Sokol1

[Buzzsaw]

Yes, AI gunners have changed.

 

There was a bug in the game which was preventing AI gunners from operating effectively... that is gone with 4.5.

 

Historically it was never a good idea to attack a bomber from the six o'clock position, almost suicidal unless you could kill the enemy gunner quickly.  Against a formation of enemy, very bad idea.

 

The skill levels of all the AI gunners can be set in the mission builder... so it is possible to make the gunners ineffective again if you want... and it is up to mission builders to set the skill levels to a point which will allow the players to succeed.

[Retnek]

Yes, AI gunners have changed.

 

There was a bug in the game which was preventing AI gunners from operating effectively... that is gone with 4.5.

 

...

That's GOOD news - the incompetence of the gunners was painful in the older versions. If one is interested in flying authentic (more strategically) bomber missions in large formations: IL2-CoD has to offer a lot, check it out!

[Lusekofte]

Yes the gunners was one main reason for me abandon COD, and if they are a bit more effective I probably will be active again. I fly PE 2 regulary here, and its gunners + myself in the gunner position are deadly. But good fighter pilots get me down without hurting themselves if they work a little bit, I hope this will be true in this version of Cod 

Edited January 6, 2018 by 216th_LuseKofte

[69th_Panp]

I have flown the single player bomber intercept mission about 8 times and I have found the gunners to be very dang good snipers.

I only returned to base 1 time without damage.

3 landings with heavy damage

4 bailouts over water

Most of the AI flight that was with me was shot down or had heavy damage.

I think if I remember right, that at most only 3 of the AI made it back to base on any of the 8 mission.

 

i'll have to go into mission and see what they are set on, unless someone knows already?

 

They do seem to be better to me, but i'll run the mission on a pc that hasn't been updated to 4.5 to compare.

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

From running a few quick missions, I think that the gunners are much better. Before the patch, I could just sit behind a formation and destroy the bombers one by one. That never seemed realistic. 

 

As long as they can be tuned by skill somewhat (haven't tried this yet), I can't complain. 

[Buzzsaw]

Yesthe gunnerswas one main reason for me abandon COD, and if they are a bit more effective I probably will be active again. I fly PE 2 regulary here, and its gunners + myself in the gunner possission are deadly. But good fighter pilots get me down without hurting themselves if they work a little bit, I hope this will be true in this version of Cod 

You will find your AI gunners, both in Single player and also in Multi player will provide much better protection to you.

[EAF_51_FOX]

Does anyone here capable to write with Notepad + program (?) where put all A.I. Gunners to rookie ? this may be a more quick and confortable solution instead to operate changing manual in FMB

[Lusekofte]

 

 

You will find your AI gunners, both in Single player and also in Multi player will provide much better protection to you.

 

For this I am thankful, I actually fly cod more than box series now. However while I can operate the turret in all bombers , I can not do so in the Blenheim Late model, possible also the ordinary, not tried yet. I push [ctrl]+[o] but I cannot move the turret 

[EAF_51_FOX]

my request/suggestion to change the A.I. gunner with a code to write in Notepad ++ is for people (like me) that prefer to leave allied bombers-gunners with good level BUT reduce the enemy ones. In other words I don't want to open any debate with Buzzsaw or you LuseKofte, may be someone like to be shooted in a flash second or like extreme challenge playing, but may be others like to play this game without this new frustration introduced with 4.5 Patch.

Edited January 6, 2018 by EAF_51_FOX

[Lusekofte]

Well if the fun you get out of online gaming is to find defenceless bombers and shoot it down , be my guest. You might not expirienced the good days of COD, when human flown bombers was in big numbers and devoted escort around them. We did not have that good ai gunners, but the escort allowed us to man the gunner-positions ourself and let the plane fly trimmed on autopilot , in this scenario good ai gunners was not a issue. What you are telling me is that you like to fly without hazard and skills and shoot targets, and you care less if the bombers are human or ai. In my book you are respectless, and belive the game is only for you and your likeminded. I do not mind oposition and getting shot down, but at least the one who shoot me down should work for it a little bit, it is part of the fun trying to get around defence and bomb targets, not much so without the danger.

I just do not see the fun in pulling a trigger with no means of intelligence and skills to get a kill.

But I do see those who want it in a regularbases. I flown all bombers in all simulators. And the pilots with a little bit of skills and mindfulness do shoot me down every time no matter of the gunner skills

[Sokol1]

However while I can operate the turret in all bombers , I can not do so in the Blenheim Late model, possible also the ordinary, not tried yet. I push [ctrl]+[o] but I cannot move the turret 

 

Check you controls assignments. Blenheim Late turret work OK. Togle Park Postion, Toggle off "Independent Mode" (F10), Lean to gunsight (Shift+F1).

 

This turret can transverse  270 degrees, set two keys for "Move Mount Left" and "Move Mount Right" help in big moves.

 

And before move for turret cockpit press the key for turn on gunsight light, the control is (virtualy) in pilot cockpit only, this turret use reflexive sight.

 

 

 

 

Just don't try use joystick axis for control turret, support for this was broken in 4.312 -  due that players complaining about "inverted turret axis" because they never understand that CloD (originally) model has two distinct control for turrets:

 

Mouse control for pivoting MG's, e.g. Ju 87 gunner MG. Joystick don't work there because are a "spring back effect".

 

Joystick axis control por powered turrets, e.g. Fiat Br. 20* top turret - this was the best turret control I see in flight games since 1942 -The Pacific Air War, but no longer work. Mouse don't work there because  for move a plane nose or a turret MG barrel up you pull joystick back - what is correct, but opposed to move mouse pointer upper (like in Windows desktop), used for the generic "gamey" control of turrets in  IL-2'46, hence the "moaning" about inversion.

 

"But, Batman. I use my joystick for fly planes, how I will use for turret's without bank/roll plane at same time?"

 

"Elementar, Robin. Set a key/button as modifier for joystick axis behavior for use in turret controls. CloD controls allow use any key/joy button as modifier for key/joy/axis."

 

*Blenheim IV turret is powered type, but seem this was not modeled in CloD (release).

But this is water under the bridge now. Turret's off both type is only controllable with mouse.  

 

 

Edited January 6, 2018 by Sokol1

[Sokol1]

Well if the fun you get out of online gaming is to find defenceless bombers and shoot it down , ...

 

LuseKoft, Apple and Oranges.

 

People are complaining of gunners "skill" in SP missions.

 

CLoD SP missions is bad very done*, has some gunners set as Rookie (0) some as Average (5) and some as ACE (10).

 

And CloD SP players in average is not "pro player tennager", but aged players without reflex to be a "virtual ACE". 

 

With 4.50 aiming calculations corrections, a  average gunner is now dangerous, and an ACE  "terminator". Then, things became not fun for "average" player.

 

* Same happens with mission waypoint, is used only 3 or 4: 'NORMAL FLY'- 'COMBAT' - 'NORMAL FLY' - LANDING. 

 

Happens that planes in NORMAL fly is 'blind" for enemy, even one shooting at their six, until this was changed in game code, the way to mitigate this is use HUNTING waypoint instead NORMAL fly for some situations, this increase AI reaction for enemy at their six, and make then attack planes in their front quadrant, but they don't engage in "last man doghfight".

 

In MP was another history, before the default skill for gunners was Rookie (0), rarely hitting anything, now is ACE,  and fighter use correct tactics for attack bombers matter.

Edited January 6, 2018 by Sokol1

[EAF_51_FOX]

but finally anyone has answered to my suggestion about modify with Notepad++ the skill without using FMB

[Lusekofte]

Oh, I did not think there was anyone flying offline and SP in this game, will that say it is possible and it is no longer rubbish?

[Sokol1]

Probable 1/3 or this CloD players in STEAM charts are SP. 

 

BTW - This charts show that the "two weeks" of BLITZ novelty faded away fast.

[InProgress]

I think sniper AI is gone but i am not sure, i was flying today and playing around in quick battles and it was ok. You could still get shot when behind enemy but now they did not shot me when i was high and doing all kind of dogging stuff.

 

 

 

Oh, I did not think there was anyone flying offline and SP in this game, will that say it is possible and it is no longer rubbish?

I mostly play SP only and many people too. You just don't see it because it's single player. And i hope devs will see it and focus some effort on SP experience, like career mode etc. If people would not play SP then no one would bother spending so much money and time creating career mode in BoX. Really, lots of people prefer SP It's immortal and you can play it even after years and when game is dead in multi, you can have much better experience if it's done right especiallly if you are into bombers and attackers, since in multi these are mostly cannon fodder due to most people flying fighters.

 

For example hs129 in BoX, i really love this plane, it's something new and interesting but it's something that cannot be send into fight without heavy cover or just in multi where sky is full of fighters everywhere. SP can simulate real war where you just fly to attack ground units and there wont be any fighters to attack you because enemy does not cover every single objective like in multi. I don't play much CloD now, i just wait for some update with something for SP people. Now there is nothing to do but replaying quick missions.

Edited January 8, 2018 by InProgress

[ATAG__Torian]

I Posted this over at the ATAG forum but thought I would post here as well. Some1 suggested that setting gunners to Rookie level in the FMB made life better to which I added...

 

As well as this u can directly change the bullet loadout of the AI gunners. If u feel the gunners are 5 times better than they should be then in the FMB give them 1 tracer round and 5 "observer" (RAF planes) or "beobachtung" (Luftwaffe planes) rounds in each gun. That way u see and feel hits on your fighter but won't sustain anywhere near as much damage. U could even totally nerf 1 or 2 of the gunners on multi gunner bombers by just eliminating the tracer round. U will still get hit & damaged but may play more to your liking.
I've never played any DisasterSoft campaigns. Can they be opened in the FMB like the single player games that come with CloD? If so then gunner skill level and loadouts should be able to be modified. It may seem tedious to have to go thru and modify the loadouts on every plane but once u have done it for the 1st plane of any type and given the nerfed loadout a saved name (I call mine DumDown) then that loadout will be available for each plane of that type to select in the Ammo section of Group Properties.

[Sokol1]

Does anyone here capable to write with Notepad + program (?) where put all A.I. Gunners to rookie ? this may be a more quick and confortable solution instead to operate changing manual in FMB

 

Replace with Notepad or better Notepad++ the lines Skill in you preferred QM mission file ("name of mission".mis) for attack bombers, under AI bomber names. E.g. 

 

[BoB_LW_KG2_III.17]
  Flight0 B N R
  Flight1 Q L S
  Flight2 U A O
  Class Aircraft.Do-17Z-2

 

BoB LW_KG2.III.l7 is a flight of 9 Do.-17Z-2 in three "V" (B N R, Q L S, U A O)

 

Lines to use for replace:

  Skill0 0.7 0.7 0.7 0.1 0.7 0.7 0.7 0.7
  Skill1 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.1 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3
  Skill2 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.1 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3
  Skill10 0.7 0.7 0.7 0.1 0.7 0.7 0.7 0.7
  Skill11 0.7 0.7 0.7 0.1 0.7 0.7 0.7 0.7
  Skill12 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.1 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3
  Skill20 0.7 0.7 0.7 0.1 0.7 0.7 0.7 0.7
  Skill21 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.1 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3
  Skill22 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.1 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3

The 4th parameter is gunner "artillery" skill - previous was 0, 0.3, 0.7, 1.

 

Example after change, the bold value is "artillery" skill: Skill0 0.7 0.7 0.7 0.1 0.7 0.7 0.7 0.7

 

But before copy QM mission files from

 

...\steamapps\common\IL-2 Sturmovik Cliffs of Dover Blitz\parts\bob\mission\Quick\

 

 

To

 

... Documents\1C SoftClub\il-2 sturmovik cliffs of dover\mission\quick\

 

This copy make easy find the mission files to make changes (in Documents\1C...), and avoid that STEAM files verification erase your changes if make then in game  folder, copying the default files again, and too make easy do backups in case of reinstall.

 

Replace in one mission and test, if find gunners easy increase the number, e.g. 0.2 - can use a different value for some bomber, e.g. for the leader of each "V" use 0.3.

 

When find a good compromise between difficult/playability use the same code for all other missions, include Single Mission (few). Case want do the same for default campaign missions.

Edited January 10, 2018 by Sokol1

[EAF_51_FOX]

Thank you very much Sokol! I'll go to "operate" with patience about this. Cheers!

[InProgress]

So far i find enemy shooting through wings annoying, you can't get on any blind spot because they just see and shoot through their own plane.

Edited January 10, 2018 by InProgress