AP vs HE Damage Modeling

[JG1_Shadepiece]

I would like to open a discussion about HE vs AP damage, and how it's all modelled in Sturmovik. I am very interested in the damage models of all the games I fly, and I think Sturmovik has the best one out there now.

 

I would like some inside information about how the damage is actually modelled and received inside the engine, and the differences between AP and HE.

[LukeFF]

There are a lot of topics already here discussing just that.

[JG1_Shadepiece]

Can you link me some of those topics?

 

 

I'm referring specifically between he and ap not the differences between lw or vvs.

[JG1_Shadepiece]

Yesterday, I recorded and uploaded a couple clips from a 10 Days of Autumn campaign that I was flying. I engaged two aircraft during this mission, and although I don't think it proves a point or anything, but I think it should spark a bit of a conversation, which is what I had intended this thread to do. I do not believe that I missed very many shells in these clips, and overall think the amount of ammo landed in the Pe-2 was an INCREDIBLE amount. Granted I was in an F-2 with the 15mm nose  auto-cannon, but it still seems that this Pe-2 should have gone down after the second burst which is why I stopped firing. I would also think that even though the HE effect of the 15mm isn't nearly the same as a 20mm, but I would think the crew would've been pretty rattled if not flat out killed by the first burst. Watch the clip see what you think.

 

 

Now I don't think the DM in BoX is awful, terrible, or completely unrealistic however I think some areas maybe could be looked at, and maybe there are changes I am not aware of coming up in the next big patch. I do have a clip of the other aircraft I engaged during this mission, and I think it shows just how brilliant the DM actually is. I do really think the DM in BoX is far ahead of any other sim at the moment. In this clip I have hit this I-16 with a two or three tiny spurts of MG prior to where the clip picks up. After the Pe-2 I had barely any ammo left to go after this guy, but good aim proves to be worth quite a bit in this game. I believe I only had about 10-15 rounds total after this final burst.

 

 

Thought these were interesting clips. I hope they can be reviewed, and the DM discussed, but let it be clear on how much I enjoy the DM in the game compared to all other Sims.

Edited December 26, 2017 by 7./JG26_Shadepiece

[przybysz86]

I've done some testing yesterday both SP and MP.

SP vs waves of solo IL2 1942 with me in 109G2 w/o pods. I was able to get (with my not perfect aim) 8 IL2s using single MG151 alone. AP shown no effect while HE was very random. It took anything between 3 to 12 rounds (all aimed roughly in the same way) to kill IL2.
Another test vs AI LaGG was less representative as, unlike IL2s, LaGGs do try to evade but usually 5hits or less was enough to bring one down.

MP test was with friend of mine flying G2 and me flying LaGG, Yak. He shot at me 1 round at the time telling me if it was AP or HE.
AP basically did nothing unless he hit pilot and HE was also little bit random. 50% of cases single HE caused leaks and/or some control damage while other half of cases it did nothing other than rocking my plane.
After each hit I tried to do some sharp turns to see if wing will hold, etc.

Average of 4-5 HE hits was needed to bring fighter down but we had cases when 1 hit got my tail controls or damaged engine to the point that it died 45s later.
Last test he got in La-5 and me in G2 - my first hit was AP and it did nothing (same like in my case he felt nothing, just heard "ping" of the hit and that was it). 2nd HE done some damage to wing but it stayed attached - it also caused oil leak and minor engine damage. 3rd (HE) got enough damage to the wing that he said he had to use stick to compensate but wing stayed on. 4th (HE) caused enough damage to the wing that during first stronger pull (4G or so) it fell off.

If we have time we will test for russian 20mm but for German ones I do not see huge problems people are talking about.

That said, outside our perfect conditions 20mms do feel slightly too weak but in tight combat I won't bet my money on my own judgement.
Also - we had only 15 mins to test on Berloga so our test are not 100% representative and more tests are needed but so far it's acceptable.

Edited December 28, 2017 by przybysz86

[przybysz86]

more testing today:

mg151 vs P-40
ShVAK vs 190
MG151 vs 190

Overall guns seem to do decent damage. Only discrepancy we were able to see is with AP but not that AP are too good but Shvak AP are 3-5x better than MG151 AP while energy difference is not that huge.
If I had to make a call red AP are tad too strong.

[JG1_Shadepiece]

Thank you for those tests. I think this is the only way to actually see what needs to be tweaked.

 

It has been said many times that the all AP belt in the La-5 is really really powerful. That seems to be a general consensus. I wouldn't say that the guns are under-powered at all, but I think some are overpowered. I believe that the damage modelling is quite good if I'm honest. I wouldn't want any of the guns buffed exactly. Just would like to see the actual values for the different ammo types, and the data to back those values up.

 

I have had a really hard time finding any data, tests, or analysis reports for battle damage for aircraft in WWII. However, I would absolutely love to see some of those reports if anybody as anything to share please do so. I would love to make a test mission or something similar where I could test the different weapons.

 

Also, I do think that the Pe-2 seems to weather more damage than seems believable. Maybe they were flying tanks, but so many times I've unloaded on them like in the clip above for no results other than streaming fuel. I think that's the only plane who's DM has something iffy.

[JG1_Shadepiece]

Full disclosure here. I flew an La-5 earlier today with the AP belt, and it didn't seem over powered to me at all.

[Mabroc]

Do some search in the forums. Multiple threads about this issue. To be short:

Yes, the AP seems a little more powerful all around and the HE sometimes good and sometimes lacking power when a hit probably would have taken out an elevator or aileron in real life. The damage model is not entirely accurate with HE modeling, the developers admit to hit. Maybe when they research tank shells and Tank DM it would improve, I hope.

But remember that online tests are not that good, lag, net code. Offline is better for testing always. Look for the past threads, looot of good tests in game and some references on books, photos, etc.

Second issue is plane construction and crew survavility, Pe-2 seems to have some adamantium spots of great strength and bullet proof gunners, but it seems to be mostly online the exaggerated effect. And other planes like de Me-109 have too many soft spots and break a little too easily.

I don't fly often and don't know enough about they construction to talk much about it.

Don't worry, several dozens people would fill this thread with hundreds of page of discussion soon. Or point to one of the original thread. I'm on the phone typing and I'm too lazy to search for it now