Determining enemies in VR?

[226sqn-RCAF_LYNX]

This is the same issue pilots had in real life. So, you are not alone.

It was not unheard of for pilots to be shot down by friendly-fire.

The method they used was memorizing the siloute of a plane.

I have seen on You Tube videos where an IL 2 player has shown one of these. 

Every plane and its siloute is displayed..

Maybe get a hold of one and post it to the wall in front of your computer

I know a lot of players use the planes shape/siloute to identify the difference between an enemy and friendly.

The easiest one to identify is the Spitfire because of its elliptical wing design.

Still, this did not stop American pilots in the war shooting them down.

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

Or bombing British convoys in the desert in times of GPS.

 

Fact is, identification is hard and should be. 

 

What I consider troubling however, is that people in VR have less zoom magnification and a harder time to identify bogeys than people flying on the monitors, and I hope you agree with me here. We should have equal footing.

[1_Robert_]

people in VR have less zoom magnification and a harder time to identify bogeys than people flying on the monitors, and I hope you agree with me here. We should have equal footing.

 

Definitely agree. The challenge may be determining what is the correct VR zoom factor that equals a monitor. 

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

Indeed. I believe, but do not know for sure, they had to limit the zoom o what it is now because it would induce sickness. 

 

You can get a feel for it if you zoom in, and then turn your head from 2 to 10 o'clock, while rolling slightly. Keep the mouth closed at all costs!   

[ATA_Vasilij]

To try to identify plane in VR is like to try to see detailed Pluto with Hubble telescope, instead of sending there a probe new horizons..

 

With this PC configuration and VR in very early stage of development.... the results are as they are.

You fly VR for immersion not for the identification.

 

Here are my suggestions:

 

in very long distance:

- lighter contact are Bf.

- darker are Russians

 

medium range:

- green are mostly russians

- grey are germans

 

in short range (less than 100m):

You are able to identify and from now is the right time to kill him, or just to make a turn with saying tralalalala, I was not going to kill you :D, dont be scarred of me, I am your friend..

 

 

Dont fly on the expert servers. Fly on such where the icons are allowed. There are such and the pilot skills are not weak as you would expect. Also on such servers are very strong and brilliant pilots! You will wonder.

 

For super tuper identification wait for better VR headsets and better PC hardware, and ... just wait. Everything is going to come...

See yeah!

[1_Robert_]

Here are my suggestions:

 

in very long distance:

- lighter contact are Bf.

- darker are Russians

 

medium range:

- green are mostly russians

- grey are germans

 

in short range (less than 100m):

You are able to identify 

 

Well that's interesting, I'm curious what some of the other experienced VR aces think of this?

I've started to get better with identifying wing shapes, 109s appear squarish and less tapered on the ends and their fuselage appears a little longer and leaner. So far that's about as far as I've gotten, it's tough in VR. I moved my SS from 1.0 to 1.8 and I believe my identifying is marginally better but I'm not entirely sure..

[VR_Dogfighter]

I'v not noticed any difference in lightness/ darkness myself.

 

So far, trying to identify the shape of the wings seems to be helping until I get close enough to be sure, although usually being killed before being sure enough to engage.

 

I would very much welcome a menu option to be able to select more magnification in the VR zoom. Maybe limit that option to tunnel vision, or similar to much reduce FOV to prevent sickness if its of concern. Not something I have experienced.

[dburne]

 

 

I would very much welcome a menu option to be able to select more magnification in the VR zoom. Maybe limit that option to tunnel vision, or similar to much reduce FOV to prevent sickness if its of concern. Not something I have experienced.

 

I am not sure how much that would truly help, given the resolution of the image - seems like would be very pixelated. Would be interesting to see though.

[Tomsk]

Personally I’d be very much in favour for an option for more zoom in VR, personally my sickness tolerance is very high and it’d be nice to be able to id things. More zoom would definitely help, pixelated or not .. after all monitors are pixelated too, just more pixels per degree

[HunDread]

It shouldnt be pixelated. You would see a plane twice as large as with the current zoom but same resolution as if you were that close to it. This is not like zooming in on a picture with windows picture viewer or stg.

[Tomsk]

It shouldnt be pixelated. You would see a plane twice as large as with the current zoom but same resolution as if you were that close to it. This is not like zooming in on a picture with windows picture viewer or stg.

 

Ah so that's what dburne meant! Yes well said, zoom would increase the resolution by decreasing the FOV (like a telescope). Rather than taking the low resolution image and just scaling it up (like blowing up a photo), which definitely would be pixelated. 

[cos]

Proper identification is not possible without using icons, due to limitations in technology. See my blog post here: http://coshacks.blogspot.fi/2016/03/why-icons-are-needed-in-combat-flight.html

 

I don't see any other way of realistic combat than using icons. I recently purchased BoS and was disapointted. In normal mode the icons are shown way too soon and are visible through cockpit. On expert mode there are no icons at all. There's no realistic middle setting for them.

[Tomsk]

Proper identification is not possible without using icons, due to limitations in technology. See my blog post here: http://coshacks.blogspot.fi/2016/03/why-icons-are-needed-in-combat-flight.html

 

I don't see any other way of realistic combat than using icons. I recently purchased BoS and was disapointted. In normal mode the icons are shown way too soon and are visible through cockpit. On expert mode there are no icons at all. There's no realistic middle setting for them.

 

Broadly I agree. The "normal mode" icons means vehicles are much too visible, and the "expert mode" no-icons means vehicles are not nearly visible enough. At the moment it's my biggest BoS gripe by far: spotting is still unrealistically hard in expert mode (especially in VR).

 

I would really like more options, especially for single player & coop. Some things that I have found to be working well in other sims are "smart scaling" (as in Falcon 4) where distant vehicles (and only distant ones) are drawn larger than real life to aid spotting and identification. Also many DCS servers would put a small grey dot over planes to aid spotting: it was subtle enough that you could very easily miss it (realistically), but it made spotting much more realistic.

 

Some people don't like such things, and I can understand that, but it would be really good to have the choice. For single player let people decide, for multiplayer let servers admins decide and then see what becomes most popular.

Edited December 14, 2017 by Tomsk

[Nibbio]

Proper identification is not possible without using icons, due to limitations in technology. See my blog post here: http://coshacks.blogspot.fi/2016/03/why-icons-are-needed-in-combat-flight.html

 

I don't see any other way of realistic combat than using icons. I recently purchased BoS and was disapointted. In normal mode the icons are shown way too soon and are visible through cockpit. On expert mode there are no icons at all. There's no realistic middle setting for them.

 

While I agree that current icon implementation in BOS is definitely poor and unfortunately not customizable, I urge you to try playing with no icons for some time. Especially in VR, spotting is not so difficult, and to me it seems realistic enough.

 

Identification is another matter, but with some practice it becomes progressively easier. The most important factor to have the best chances at correct identification in VR is fluid animation, to avoid graphic artifacts, texture blurring, double vision. It is therefore imperative to resist the temptation  to enable the eye-candy, and choose settings that allow 90 fps all the time, with a significant margin, even in the most demanding situations.

 

Personally, with my old rig, I run VR at low graphics preset, shadows and mirrors off, terrain x2, 2xAA and 1.5 SS. The game looks just as beautiful, and I almost never get below 90 fps with ASW and HUD off.

[Tomsk]

While I agree that current icon implementation in BOS is definitely poor and unfortunately not customizable, I urge you to try playing with no icons for some time. Especially in VR, spotting is not so difficult, and to me it seems realistic enough.

 

It's really good if viewing the plane from above or below and tolerable from the side, but front/rear all the major parts get thinner than one pixel and the plane often just vanishes, even when it's not that far away. Serious problem I've been having lately flying formation with the AI (who always seem to cruise at 100% sustained power, never do that as a lead, it's a nightmare for your wingman) .. if he gets too far out ahead of you you are totally stuffed, because he'll just disappear ... even if you know where to look.

[9./JG54Kirin]

+1 for a better VR zoom.

 

In my personal experience zoom does not induce sickness at all.

 

 

We are on the verge of 2nd generation HMDs which will mean higher resolution but also higher GPU/CPU demand. VR opitmization for the engine are inevitable. Please be ahead of things!

[Nibbio]

It's really good if viewing the plane from above or below and tolerable from the side, but front/rear all the major parts get thinner than one pixel and the plane often just vanishes, even when it's not that far away. Serious problem I've been having lately flying formation with the AI (who always seem to cruise at 100% sustained power, never do that as a lead, it's a nightmare for your wingman) .. if he gets too far out ahead of you you are totally stuffed, because he'll just disappear ... even if you know where to look.

 

That's true, in VR this is particularly bad, even though I expect that in reality spotting a plane in front/rear aspect is also more difficult.

 

VR is also very bad when setting up a head-on pass, since the low resolution of the enemy plane makes it very difficult to judge distance and attitude/direction in time for accurate shooting. Icons in this case only help with distance, so they are not the solution.

Edited December 14, 2017 by Nibbio

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

Proper identification is not possible without using icons, due to limitations in technology. See my blog post here: http://coshacks.blogspot.fi/2016/03/why-icons-are-needed-in-combat-flight.html

 

I don't see any other way of realistic combat than using icons. I recently purchased BoS and was disapointted. In normal mode the icons are shown way too soon and are visible through cockpit. On expert mode there are no icons at all. There's no realistic middle setting for them.

Some people... There is both options, on and off, and he is still unhappy... duh.. Didn't even learn wingshapes and radiator-positions of aircrafts. That's what you do in a simulation.

 

I can tell a Yak by its nose alone.

 

As I said - a lot of the guys here don't even differentiate between spotting and identification. They use the terms interchangably. That's either incompetent or lazy. Hard to pick what is worse. That's why they must be more precise in their language, or what should the devs react on - a swampy "hurrdur this is baad" without any argumentation or reason and then just do whatever 'feels' right? No. The door is to the right.

Edited December 20, 2017 by 4./JG52_Fenris_Wolf

[Tomsk]

Some people... There is both options, on and off, and he is still unhappy... duh.. Didn't even learn wingshapes and radiator-positions of aircrafts. That's what you do in a simulation.

 

So if you read cos's blog post he actually talks mostly about resolution issues. So flying with a monitor is significantly less resolution than your eyes have in real life. Flying with VR is very significantly less resolution than that. He's not complaining that he can't learn wingships and radiator positions, he's complaining that there isn't enough resolution to be able to see wingshapes or radiators at realistic ranges .. and I agree with him.

 

He suggests it would be good to have something between icons on and icons off. Icons as they are right now are totally unrealistic .. kind of obviously, but especially since you can see them through the plane and they give you far more information that you'd really have. However icons off is actually also very unrealistic, especially in VR, because the resolution is so bad you're simulating a partially sighted pilot.  

 

I'm not necessarily arguing for the same solution, but I definitely do agree it's annoying not to have more choices here. Especially in single player, where no-one else can complain about my choices ...

Edited December 20, 2017 by Tomsk

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

In his forum post he talked about the things I replied to. His post was a) wrong b) winey without reasoning. The post is what I was replying to. What he writes on another web page or other forum doesn't interest me, when the discussion is here. Want it to be part of the discussion, post it in here.

 

I form my own opinion on things. Why you would read anyone's blog when even his post was like this, doesn't make any sense to me.

Edited December 20, 2017 by 4./JG52_Fenris_Wolf

[1_Robert_]

In his forum post he talked about the things I replied to. His post was a) wrong b) winey without reasoning. The post is what I was replying to. What he writes on another web page or other forum doesn't interest me, when the discussion is here. Want it to be part of the discussion, post it in here.

 

I form my own opinion on things. Why you would read anyone's blog when even his post was like this, doesn't make any sense to me.

I think you made a good point that "spotting" and "identifying" are two totally different things and they often get passed off as the same in many posts. With VR I find it easier to "spot" and more of a challenge to "identify". That said, I have noticed that my identifying has actually improved significantly and although there is certainly a resolution handicap, identification is still very much possible.

[SCG_motoadve]

You guys run the wrong settings. AA off, sharpen off, then use VRs antialiasing called supersampling. Why don't you use the AA provided by VR for VR?

 

Use SteamVR 's SS, and disable the advanced supersampling filter. IL-2 is not an *oculus game either, so don't go with their software more ASW.

I tried No AA or 2X AA and looks jagged, didnt liked at all.

 

What is the advantage?

 

I am SS at 2.5 and AAx4 almost all graphics maxxed out.

 

Looks nice, and cockpit super detailed,Runs very smooth Ctrl1 and Ctrl 2 before start and no prop effects either.

 

Dont like the blurry effect at fast speed, when looking at ground or other planes, but I think  we all get that no matter what, correct?

 

GTX 1080 overclocked

i7 4400

16 GB Ram

 

Love VR absolutely immersive.

Its the future for sure.

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

Good to hear you found your ideal settings

 

Tell me, what 1080 are you using and how much did you OC it to? I'm stimply adjusting mines' powertarget/temptarget right now to 118%/90°C, so that its boost is used to up to 1847MHz when needed. I wonder how much I could squeeze out of this one..

[SCG_motoadve]

Geforce GTX 1080 redline on boost is very close to 2,000

[Tomsk]

In his forum post he talked about the things I replied to. His post was a) wrong b) winey without reasoning. The post is what I was replying to. What he writes on another web page or other forum doesn't interest me, when the discussion is here. Want it to be part of the discussion, post it in here.

 

Well here's a visual comparison of the numbers in his blog post (cross posted from another thread). My own research on this question has come up with very similar figures:

- Real life: the human eye can resolve detail with a resolution of 0.6 arc minutes, there's plenty of sources for that number. This corresponds to 100 pixels per degree.

- 2K Monitor: a 2K monitor is 2560 pixels horizontal, usually about 75 degrees FOV, so it's 34 pixels per degree.

- VR: current generation VR headsets are (at best) 1200 pixels covering 110 degrees FOV, so it's 11 pixels per degree.

 

To get an idea of what that looks like, in terms of being able to resolve fine details, here's an example:

 

Note that I'm being quite generous to the 2K monitor and VR here as I'm running them (effectively) at 3x and 9x super sampling respectively.

 

In short, lack of resolution is a real issue due to the technology. Also, in case someone without VR would like to experience what's that's like, playing the game in 800x600 gives very similar pixels per degree.

Edited December 27, 2017 by Tomsk

[C6_lefuneste]

Proper identification is not possible without using icons, due to limitations in technology. See my blog post here: http://coshacks.blogspot.fi/2016/03/why-icons-are-needed-in-combat-flight.html

 

I don't see any other way of realistic combat than using icons. I recently purchased BoS and was disapointted. In normal mode the icons are shown way too soon and are visible through cockpit. On expert mode there are no icons at all. There's no realistic middle setting for them.

 

I totally agree with you regarding the mandatory usage of Icon for VR. Even if this is not possible to modify distance for icons, my mod can make them hidden by cockpit at least: https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/30556-3dmigoto-mod-vr/

And I have now a working version with 10x zoom (that helps a lot for aircraft identification), but unfortunately for most VR users, this feature is not working with the Rift...

Edited December 27, 2017 by lefuneste

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

Thank you Tomsk for the detailed explanation and examples.

 

Lefuneste, the zoom is functioning, but it does not zoom within the world and does not scale the graphics, instead it zooms upon the displayed picture itself - so all you get are giant pixels, with the same grade of information you got without zoom.

[C6_lefuneste]

I had not diffuse this version yet.

The current one is zooming by using the pixel shader, that is why it pixellate (but it depends on your SS factor).

The new one is using VS shader, so there is no pixellisation at all. The only problem I found yet is that grass disapears when zooming, but this can mainly be seen on ground. Nevertheless, there is the same convergence issue with the Rift, and the last version of 3dmigoto lib, that should improve fps, is still not working for Il2 Bos, this is why I did  not update the post. I will do it with the new lib, at least to give improvement for Rift users.

But if someone with a vive want to test it yet before the 3dmigoto performance improvement, I can post it...

Edited December 27, 2017 by lefuneste

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

I have a rift, if there is anything I can help you with, please let me know, here or best via PM.

[C6_lefuneste]

I have a rift, if there is anything I can help you with, please let me know, here or best via PM.

 

Ok, here is the situation : I checked with another guy that I can discriminate eye with the same way for the Rift than for the HDK2.

So the idea is to add an Xoffset depending of the eye and the zoom factor in order to have the right separation-like setting.

Problem : I do not have Rift and it is working for my HDK2 by default, so I can not define the right offsets. But you can do it. I asked to the other guy, but it looks like he didn't have time. So the first to do it will be welcome !

 

What you can do :

1.  download and install this mod:http://www.mediafire.com/file/rjkkd2v82x7t99d/3Dmigoto_VRBOS_5.2.zip
2. edit with notepad++ bin/game/d3dx.ini
3. find the lines

   ;default zoom factor (not to be modified)
   w = 1
   ;----------------
   ; XShift
   ;----------------
   ; xhsift for defaut IPD like modifier (not to be modified)
   x6 = 0.0
   ; xshift for left eye (not to be modified)
   y6 = 0.0
   ; xshift for right eye (not to be modified)
   x7 = 0.0
   

   y6 and x7 variables are to be find for each zoom factor. The simpliest way is to change default zoom factor and to iterate on them. Then it will possible to report them on key settings defining the zoom applied. It will be simplier with a double screen config, but that can be done with IL2BOS in windows mode. So, now you will have to:

    

4. check that mod is working for your config by lauching IL2, modifying zoom factor (that is edit d3dx.ini, modifiy setting w = 1.5 instead of w = 1 on the lines above, save d3dx.ini and push F10 key that will update the mod setting in IL2. Image should be zoomed
5. If it si working, you can then modify "y6 = 0.0" by "y6 = 0.1" (+ save and F10 of course) => it should shift to the right left eye view from 10%
6. If it is working, you can now search the good values for y6 (left eye) and x7 (right eye) for the 1.5 zoom factor (inside cockpit targeted usage). At each modification you'll have to save and press F10 key. Tips for values: positive = shift to the right, they range form -1.0 to 1.0 (1.0 = 100% screen width shift).
7. Once you find the good values, notice them and goes for next zoom factor.
8. do the same thing for x5 and x10 zoom, that is set w = 5.0 or w = 10.0  and go ahead. The setting should be find by looking outside on far objects. This zoom factor are not intended for cockpit view and you will not be able to find a good setting for both internal and external view.
9. You may now have black band on side of the rift. So you can modify the x = 100 value in order to introduce a mask. By default I use 0.08 value for x (square mask radius). The mask is not shifted, it is working with my HDK2 but it may cause problem with Rift. In this case I will modify the mod.
10. post here the offsets you'll find for each zoom factor and mask radius, or any problem you encountered.

[Zenchess]

Rift user here.  

 

I am working on this.  I believe I have the zoom perfect for w=2:  

 

[Key2]

;set  zoom on

Key = ALT VK_DOWN

type = hold

; modify here the first value you want to use for zoom increase

w = 2.0

y6 = -0.15

x7 = 0.15

 

 

Still working on the other zoom levels, although maybe that's enough info with some math?

 

Edit:  It actually looks great in the cockpit as well as at distance

Edited December 31, 2017 by Zenchess

[C6_lefuneste]

Cool. At least the zoom seems working for Rift ! Maybe you can try to multiply or divide the y6/x7 by the ratio between the x2 and the new factor. At least to start...

It will works for both cokpit and distance for low zoom factor, but I do not think that a single shift factor will allow to see both for x5 and x10. And the only interest form my point of view with high factor is to look outside. But you can try...

I setup 1.5 factor to low setting because I found that it helps to read briefing missions.

[Zenchess]

[Key3]

;set med zoom on

Key = ALT VK_RIGHT

type = hold

; modify here the first value you want to use for zoom increase

w = 5.0

y6 = -0.6

x7 = 0.6

 

This seems to be right for medium zoom.  High zoom I cannot seem to make any progress on.  

 

At medium zoom there are black bands on the sides.  On the left eye there is a black band on the right edge, and on the right eye there is a black band on the left edge.  I tried some x values like 0.08, 100, 50, 500, but nothing seems to get rid of them.  What should I be trying?

 

I will work on 1.5, I did 2 because that is the value that was in the file 

[Zenchess]

[Key2]

;set  zoom on

Key = ALT VK_DOWN

type = hold

; modify here the first value you want to use for zoom increase

w = 1.5

y6 = -0.07

x7 = 0.07

 

These work pretty well.

 

 

Btw thanks for this mod!  So many great tweaks I wouldn't even imagine switching back at this point, like the single aiming reticule and color enhancement (and cockpit size) . And now I have a better x2 and x5 zoom!

Edited December 31, 2017 by Zenchess

[C6_lefuneste]

 

[Key3]

;set med zoom on

Key = ALT VK_RIGHT

type = hold

; modify here the first value you want to use for zoom increase

w = 5.0

y6 = -0.6

x7 = 0.6

 

This seems to be right for medium zoom.  High zoom I cannot seem to make any progress on.  

 

At medium zoom there are black bands on the sides.  On the left eye there is a black band on the right edge, and on the right eye there is a black band on the left edge.  I tried some x values like 0.08, 100, 50, 500, but nothing seems to get rid of them.  What should I be trying?

 

I will work on 1.5, I did 2 because that is the value that was in the file 

 

 

What is going on when using the mask by setting x= 0.001 ? Is it showing ?

Edited January 1, 2018 by lefuneste

[kalbuth]

What is going on when using the mask by setting x= 0.001 ? Is it showing ?

I tried it (Rift user here), unfortunately it only limits view to very little circles. When making these circles bigger by raising to 0.08, 0.1 or more, the black bands appear. Modifying the x value doesn't change the bands, only introduce a black screen with circle through which the scene is seen.

 

Btw, how can I then report correct values to a zoom Key setting?

Nvm, found it

Edited January 1, 2018 by kalbuth

[C6_lefuneste]

Ok can you go ahead and found the max zoom setting without black bar, even by reducing a bit the FOV by using mask ?

Maybe there is something between x5 and x10 that may works...

[kalbuth]

Ok can you go ahead and found the max zoom setting without black bar, even by reducing a bit the FOV by using mask ?

Maybe there is something between x5 and x10 that may works...

 

Mmmh, I don't get it.

This is what the 'mask' setting does in game :

 

As you can see, it creates 2 'circles' which are visible inside the rift (it's like your seeing through some sort of binoculars). The black bands are in the middle, you don't see them on the screenshot but they are still there in the black area in the middle, between both circles.

So this setting does not reduce FOV per se, it blocks the view . I don't know if it's rendered the same in your HDK2.

x=0.001 makes both circles reaalllly tiny

 

If you prefer we can go further in french, ca serait plus pratique , either in direct message here or on CheckSix forums (my nickname is Whisper down there)

Edited January 2, 2018 by kalbuth

[C6_lefuneste]

Let's keep english, at least for this answer, to allow everybody to understand the problem...

The 'circles' are just to define a mask to hide the border of zoomed&shifted view and also to give a "feeling" of zoom. I found it more confortable to have a little border than a full view, my brain/eye feel better for nausea.

On my HD2 I see only one circle, centered on what I looked. It seems to me that this is not the case with the Rift ? So the "circle" center has to be shifted also ?

Regarding the black bar : as the images are shifted, they can not be avoided. And they are in the middle of screen because you shift left and right eye in opposite direction so it makes a "hole". As the VR helmet did not display 100% of image, you did not see them for low zoom factors.

So I wonder if black bars are small enough to be masked by a correctly centered circle mask for high zoom factors ?

Can you post an image for x2 and x5 zoom without masking just to see how big are the black bar and explain if you can see them in the Rift ? with a 0.6 Xshift for x5 zoom (as in post 73) they should be huge...

You can PM me on checkSix if you want to go further in french...I can modify the mod to allow the usage of x7 for shifting mask only, as y6 and  x7 have the same absolute values...

Edited January 2, 2018 by lefuneste

[kalbuth]

Thanks for explanation, makes perfect sense.

 

As far as I've seen, I saw 2 circles in the Rift. I was using Zenchess settings of x6=-0.6 and y7=0.6 for w=5, as without mask it was working fine, maybe with a mask that needs to be readjusted to have the center of circles coincide on both eyes.

 

I'll need to retest. I'm @work at the moment, I'll do it this evening and post results, as well as requested x2 & x5 no mask result.

 

Also, as you can see at the edge of my picture, I sometimes have textures going all pink, mainly the gunsight or some cockpit glass. I don't know if it' a know issue.

Edited January 2, 2018 by kalbuth