Determining enemies in VR?

[VR_Dogfighter]

I'm really getting into this game/ sim and appreciate everything it is especially in VR, but really struggling to determine who's who during Multiplayer games.

 

I have graphics settings at max and mostly running at 89 FPS, so I can't do much system wise.

 

The VR zoom feature helps a bit, but due to the low resolution and motion blur I still can't get a clue until I'm almost next to them.

 

In the last few games, I got shot down myself more by friendlies than enemies, so wondering if we just shoot anyway and hope it's right?

 

Basic tags of red or blue dot in multiplayer would be great for VR players (or all).

 

Has anyone got any tips/ suggestions to help?

[mrvile]

If you have the performance overhead, increasing supersampling helps a lot.

[Tomsk]

Yeah crank up the supersampling is a good tip. I have a Rift and use a program called Oculus Tray Tool to crank it up to 1.4x pixel density, which makes a big difference. You can go larger than that, but it gets to be diminishing returns. It also very noticeable affects frame rate. I also turn off ASW as otherwise you end up with planes (and other fast moving objects) looking all blurry and double-visioned, which makes them really hard to identify.

 

It is harder than on a monitor though, it's just one of the disadvantages one ends up taking with VR. Totally worth it IMO though, wouldn't fly without VR

Edited December 9, 2017 by Tomsk

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/31094-help-need-best-vr-settings-hi-end-rig-help/page-1

[SharpeXB]

One method is to watch who the AA is shooting at depending on who’s territory you are over.

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

Here is a private message reply I sent to someone asking about identification in VR - figured I'd post it here as well.

 

 

 

I run SS at 2.3 in SteamVR which is the equivalent of 1.6 in Tray tool. Probably not a massive difference though. Im running High preset with med shadows at the moment, as some maps with high overcast clouds are causing big performance problems. I use minimal AA to avoid having the dots blur into the background. SS at 2.3 more than covers the required AA.

 

My identification methods are as follows -

 

 

1. Tracer colour. Dead giveaway - Yellow for German, Red for Allied. Helps you quickly figure out who is who in a fight that is already taking place, and allows you to ID from 9.5km.

2. Mid range, aircraft shape. Very few exceptions, but a fat chunky plane is a russian plane. Look at the wing shape, or the tail depending on your perspective. Only planes that catch you out are typically P40's or Macchis.

3. Rear aspect - Radiator position first, intake position on the left if the rads are closed to ID a 109. La5 and 190s look 'different' at guns range, but I cant find the right way to describe. Maybe the wing level and roundness of the midsection?

4. Get in close. Within 1km you should almost certainly know the side of the plane you are fighting, especially if they are maneuvering the only exception being rear or front aspect.

 

 

Use your Zoom to ID. Unless you are in a dogfight, you probably wont be able to ID without it.

From a learning perspective, fly with someone that has TrackIR at first, and try and Identify the plane before they do, or at least get them to hold off on the ID to let you have a guess and then they can validate the ID.  The more practice you have the better at it you become. Avoiding it probably just prolongs the inability to ID. If no wingman with TIR, then head to a normal server for a bit, turn off the icons and then do the same, only turning the icons on at the last minute to confirm your ID.

 

Making the switch from TIR to VR - there was a significant step to being able to effectively ID again, but through practice I have been able to get back that ability for the most part. If I had better resolution and reduced SDE, I would be in heaven.

 

I can't stress picking up the chunky/skinny ID thing enough though. Its the best mid range ID differentiation.

 

Hope something in there helps. If you have any other questions, fire away.

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

Just tap the trigger for the first shot. If you don't get a friendly fire message, let her rip.

 

:D

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

Just tap the trigger for the first shot. If you don't get a friendly fire message, let her rip.

 

:D

 

Make sure you turn the HUD back on before you do...  =)

[VR_Dogfighter]

Thanks for all the tiips guys..Awesome!!

 

I'm using Vive and now got SS cranked up to 2.5..still running smooth.  

 

Looking forward to putting the above into action! 

[OrLoK]

slightly off topic: Id like to see an option to have labels on for friendlies only (to simulate comms awareness etc) but keep the enemies off so one can still be jumped etc and to quickly ID in a furball friend from foe.

 

I expect the devs to have done this by lunchtime.

[A_radek]

slightly off topic: Id like to see an option to have labels on for friendlies only (to simulate comms awareness etc) but keep the enemies off so one can still be jumped etc and to quickly ID in a furball friend from foe.

 

I expect the devs to have done this by lunchtime.

An enhanced VR-zoom would overcome the lower resolution and give us the same identification ability monitor players have. In my opinion this is the single most important tweak the VR implementation needs.

[Tomsk]

+1 a more powerful zoom in VR would help a lot.

[161snails]

Im not sure there is a simple technique.....my time spent as a tank gunner (and overall spotter with all things military) we spent hours trying to ID russian armour, in the end you just get used to the shapes more than the details, especially at range. i find its much the same with this sim. At distance i can generally tell allies  from axis.....then just work out what im shooting at when im a little closer.

[VR_Dogfighter]

An enhanced VR-zoom would overcome the lower resolution and give us the same identification ability monitor players have. In my opinion this is the single most important tweak the VR implementation needs.

I agree, the VR zoom helps, but not a lot..2 x is not much and sometimes it seems like it zooms the landscape more than the plane you really want to ID. I think it needs to be more like 4-5 x zoom.

 

PS..after a day's flying, I'm struggling to spot a difference in tracer colour in VR, but starting to notice shapes better when up close enough. It's just the resolution is a real struggle.

Edited December 10, 2017 by NAKE350

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

What's your SS, your AA, and gfx settings?

[Herne]

It took me the longest time to get used to in VR, but I can usually tell friend from foe these days. I have my settings on balanced. I keep the HUD on for the chat window, but turn hints and techno chat off, I really think having AA whacked up to max, currently *4 helps.

[161snails]

I have mine on balanced, 4 x aa and 1.3 SS on tray tool. Pretty solid 90fps at altitude 75 low down. But I don’t find spotting friend or foe a problem TBH

[dburne]

I have 4x aa and 1.5 SS, am getting better at id'ing targets but still a bit of a challenge. I fly SP only and have no shame in toggling labels on and off as needed.

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

You guys run the wrong settings. AA off, sharpen off, then use VRs antialiasing called supersampling. Why don't you use the AA provided by VR for VR?

 

Use SteamVR 's SS, and disable the advanced supersampling filter. IL-2 is not an *oculus game either, so don't go with their software more ASW.

Edited December 11, 2017 by 2./JG51_Fenris_Wolf

[dburne]

You guys run the wrong settings. AA off, sharpen off, then use VRs antialiasing called supersampling. Why don't you use the AA provided by VR for VR?

 

I stated in my post I am running 1.5 SS ( In Oculus).

SS is not AA , more like DSR. Yes it tricks the display into appearing to run a higher resolution though it is at a fixed resolution. 

On a monitor, one can use Nvidia DSR and get the image to appear to where AA might not be needed, or not as much. In VR a bit of a different story. The main advantage of SS in VR is up close in cockpit view, like instrument clarity. Off at a distance not so much.

 

Looks way better to me to have in game AA on, especially at distances.

 

There is no wrong setting, just personal preference.

Edited December 11, 2017 by dburne

[dburne]

 

Use SteamVR 's SS, and disable the advanced supersampling filter. IL-2 is not an coulis game either, so don't go with their software more ASW.

 

I have tried both and actually prefer the Oculus software , again a matter of personal preference.

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

Wrong on both accounts, sorry mate to be blunt;

First, SS is indeed AA, actual real AA and no postfx tech. Nothing else. It's officially designated as such.

Then second, you might want to use SteamVR 's SS, because you need to disable the super sampling filter. There is a big difference in how mushy the picture gets. BTW, sharpen is meant to be used in conjunction with in-game AA, so better keep that off. With sharpen off, you don't get pixelation.

 

Of course you can pick whatever you prefer. You can also power your car with plant oil, but then again, that is not real fuel either.

Edited December 11, 2017 by 2./JG51_Fenris_Wolf

[dburne]

Wrong on both accounts, sorry mate to be blunt;

First, SS is indeed AA, actual real AA and no postfx tech. Nothing else. It's officially designated as such.

Then second, you might want to use SteamVR 's SS, because you need to disable the super sampling filter. There is a big difference in how mushy the picture gets. BTW, sharpen is meant to be used in conjunction with in-game AA, so better keep that off. With sharpen off, you don't get pixelation.

 

Of course you can pick whatever you prefer. You can also power your car with plant oil, but then again, that is not real fuel either.

 

Sorry bud, you are wrong on all accounts.

And yes I will continue to fly as I see fit.

​And yes I use Sharpen as well. Love it.

Edited December 11, 2017 by dburne

[TG-55Panthercules]

Yeah - I tried the suggested "high SS, no AA no sharpen" approach, but I didn't like it either.  It might well help improve spotting/ID ability, but overall quality just wasn't to my liking.  For people particularly concerned about spotting/ID ability, I'd certainly recommend that they give those settings a try - perhaps they'll like them better.  But ultimately the overall BoX VR experience is about more than just spotting/ID ability, so each player just has to decide for themselves what combination of settings they prefer to stick with in the long run.

[Guest deleted@134347]

Sorry bud, you are wrong on all accounts.

And yes I will continue to fly as I see fit.

​And yes I use Sharpen as well. Love it.

 

I agree with you and I agree with Fenris_Wolf.

 

I prefer running 4xAA and your setup for SP. It does make the game look pretty.

 

However in MP world it's totally different. And Fenris' tips are for the mp specifically. First of all MP server with a ton of players will introduce a rather significant fps drop, hence anything to improve it goes there. The 0xAA is purely for the enemy spotting. In MP everyone and their mother flies at 50-100 meter altitudes (except for bombers). The 0xAA in MP creates a distinguishable white 'glow' around an object, which helps with spotting tremendously in VR. Without it you see the enemy when it's way too late.

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

Sorry bud, you are wrong on all accounts.

And yes I will continue to fly as I see fit.

​And yes I use Sharpen as well. Love it.

You can choose what you see fits best for your SP experience, nobody denied you anything like that. As moosya said, I am talking from the MP perspective, and solely explained what is what.

 

My sentences on AA and what SS is remain true, it's fact and not debatable, nor subject to opinion. Just saying "you are wrong on all accounts" comes across a bit weird. But it doesn't matter. I'm outta here. Good luck o7

Edited December 11, 2017 by 2./JG51_Fenris_Wolf

[VR_Dogfighter]

You guys run the wrong settings. AA off, sharpen off, then use VRs antialiasing called supersampling. Why don't you use the AA provided by VR for VR?

 

Use SteamVR 's SS, and disable the advanced supersampling filter. IL-2 is not an *oculus game either, so don't go with their software more ASW.

I have to agree with you on this..For me, I'm getting better quality image increasing Steam SS to 3.0, disable Steam SS filter and in-game sharpening, AA etc. 

When I use the in-game sharpening, it gives shimmering effect, but not the case with increased Steam SS. Also noted no jagged edges which were there before with a lower SS and in-game AA off.

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

I have to agree with you on this..For me, I'm getting better quality image increasing Steam SS to 3.0, disable Steam SS filter and in-game sharpening, AA etc.

When I use the in-game sharpening, it gives shimmering effect, but not the case with increased Steam SS. Also noted no jagged edges which were there before with a lower SS and in-game AA off.

Thank you o7

[dburne]

You can choose what you see fits best for your SP experience, nobody denied you anything like that. As moosya said, I am talking from the MP perspective, and solely explained what is what.

 

My sentences on AA and what SS is remain true, it's fact and not debatable, nor subject to opinion. Just saying "you are wrong on all accounts" comes across a bit weird. But it doesn't matter. I'm outta here. Good luck o7

 

Was basically replying the same way you did to me... and no you did not clarify you were strictly talking for MP.

 

AA and SS are two different things, but we can agree to disagree on that one.

 

I will continue to fly this great sim in VR with my Rift and enjoy it immensely as I have been for many months with the settings I prefer.

 

Others can do the same and find the settings they prefer.

 

And no, pretty sure I have never considered powering my car with plant oil, but thanks so much for the suggestion.

Edited December 11, 2017 by dburne

[1_Robert_]

Thank you o7

 

Fenris, would you mind sharing your complete VR setup for MP?

 

I have a 1080ti, 16gb RAM, i7... so a decent rig. I've googled VR tips and have seen many suggestions. I sense you have a good grasp on the matter and I'm looking for "as current as possible" suggestions. Thanks for your time

[VR_Dogfighter]

From the conversation(s) above It seems there could be a significant difference in setups and their effect depending on either Rift or Vive, but not sure if we should have to go to the n'th degree of bits and bites to be on a level playing field with monitor pilots to get a good idea who we're shooting at? Also, changing the settings to optimise views for far away planes can have a negative impact on game quality in regular flight.

 

Since starting the conversation, I've gone off the idea of player markers in favour of ID'ing planes from visual, which is much more realistic  .

 

I just had a quick look (excuse the pun) and binoculars with at least 10 x zoom were around in WW2, so regardless of settings, why are we limited to 2 x zoom?

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

That's a very good question, I believe in order to not have people forced to fly with a bucket next to them. The option for a secondary zoom function, like 4x, would be great for VR players and level the playing field. Just a second key set below VR zoom - "stronk VR zoom". Those feeling sick can remain at 2x this way. I asked Jason in a dev thread about it (the one why BoK was delayed a bit), but he didn't reply unfortunately.

 

Regarding SS dburne, I don't think I was impolite, and I don't understand your reaction to reply without reasoning. Supersampling is anti aliasing, they are not two different cups of tea. You can Google Supersampling and read up on it. The German and English Wikipedia article is quite good on it, with thorough documentation, reference and sources on it.

 

Rweaves, are you in the benchmark thread in VR section? If you send me detailed system information via PM I can send a small guide via PM, but depending on cleanliness of the windows installation and many factors you'll still need to push or pull a few bolts here and there afterwards for the clockwork to run steady I think it's possible

[Guest deleted@134347]

the VR support for this game was introduced only in May of 2017, also I don't think there's any other flying sim game that offers any kind of a zoom so Il2 bringing it in even at x2 is quite a differentiator. There are some dev requests to give us x4 or x8.. but it's ultimately up to the game product management/dev to decide if it's truly needed and how much it would cost them to implement it.

 

From the conversation(s) above It seems there could be a significant difference in setups and their effect depending on either Rift or Vive, but not sure if we should have to go to the n'th degree of bits and bites to be on a level playing field with monitor pilots to get a good idea who we're shooting at? Also, changing the settings to optimise views for far away planes can have a negative impact on game quality in regular flight.

 

Since starting the conversation, I've gone off the idea of player markers in favour of ID'ing planes from visual, which is much more realistic  .

 

I just had a quick look (excuse the pun) and binoculars with at least 10 x zoom were around in WW2, so regardless of settings, why are we limited to 2 x zoom?

[1_Robert_]

the VR support for this game was introduced only in May of 2017, also I don't think there's any other flying sim game that offers any kind of a zoom so Il2 bringing it in even at x2 is quite a differentiator. There are some dev requests to give us x4 or x8.. but it's ultimately up to the game product management/dev to decide if it's truly needed and how much it would cost them to implement it.

 

There is another flight sim that has VR zoom

I'm fine with the 2x for now, I think that they've done a great job with implementing VR

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

The argument is that the option would make VR identification more competitive in MP, if brought up to a similar level of zoom as monitor guys enjoy.

 

Yes, counter is, how many hours does the implementation take? Maybe the current preexisting function can be used and adapted, maybe it is more complex. Well, it is kind of important for multiplayer...

[Guest deleted@134347]

I don't agree with you. Super sampling is absolutely not AntiAliasing. It's two completely different technologies destined for obtaining two different goals. AA is based on a sampled signal but that's where the similarities (if you can even call them that) end.

 

Super Sampling in VR is doing the following:

- requests the GPU to render the scene at the HIGHER resolution than VR displays allow, i.e. render the image at 3840x2500 an then downsample it to 1080x1200 in Rift.

- the downsampled end result will contain a lot more graphical 'density' information if you will, i.e. a lot more shading variation, etc.

- the end result will appear sharper because of the rich shading and other attributes

 

AntiAliasing:

- algorithm to deconstruct the 'sampled' image in to very distinct patterns and then merge them to reduce sampling artifacts yet maintain definition. The artifact reduction with clarity aspect is the prime goal of the AA.

 

 

 

That's a very good question, I believe in order to not have people forced to fly with a bucket next to them. The option for a secondary zoom function, like 4x, would be great for VR players and level the playing field. Just a second key set below VR zoom - "stronk VR zoom". Those feeling sick can remain at 2x this way. I asked Jason in a dev thread about it (the one why BoK was delayed a bit), but he didn't reply unfortunately.

Regarding SS dburne, I don't think I was impolite, and I don't understand your reaction to reply without reasoning. Supersampling is anti aliasing, they are not two different cups of tea. You can Google Supersampling and read up on it. The German and English Wikipedia article is quite good on it, with thorough documentation, reference and sources on it.

Rweaves, are you in the benchmark thread in VR section? If you send me detailed system information via PM I can send a small guide via PM, but depending on cleanliness of the windows installation and many factors you'll still need to push or pull a few bolts here and there afterwards for the clockwork to run steady I think it's possible

[VR_Dogfighter]

the VR support for this game was introduced only in May of 2017, also I don't think there's any other flying sim game that offers any kind of a zoom so Il2 bringing it in even at x2 is quite a differentiator. There are some dev requests to give us x4 or x8.. but it's ultimately up to the game product management/dev to decide if it's truly needed and how much it would cost them to implement it.

I couldn't agree more..This is by far, one of, if not the best VR flight sims/ experiences available.

Although I keep getting tempted by the quality monitor gaming, it just does not compare to the VR experience, so for that reason I am fully committed to VR and hope to help its cause.

 

VR zoom is amazing to have..I didn't even know it existed in the game until now  so thumbs up to IC Game Studios and look forward to development as it unfolds!  

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

It is one of various antialiasing techniques, indeed.

 

Please read this regarding antialiasing as a headline to various different techniques of calling samples to smooth pixelation, including supersampling as well. The way it is applied to the final picture makes it an AA technique.

 

Wikipedia is the most thorough summary on this with a lot of source linked in as well, you won't find this information in books given the nature of modernity.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-aliasing_filter

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supersampling check and open up the method tab

 

Also very interesting on spatial antialiasing filters which aren't just used in graphical signaling as well,

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spatial_anti-aliasing

Especially the tab "An example of an image with extreme pseudo-random aliasing" is very interesting and somewhat easier to read up on in my opinion

I'm no expert on antialiasing by any stretch, but that SS is one of the more demanding yet accurate forms of antialiasing is unquestionable and not open for debate based on opinions.. It's just the way it is. It really doesn't matter anyway, it is just definitions of signal processing techniques, and not about whether world was flat or round. That mentioned, I tip the hat and say good night! o7

Edited December 12, 2017 by 2./JG51_Fenris_Wolf

[1_Robert_]

My experience thus far with VR in BOx seems quite different to what I’m reading here.

 

I was flying with a group the other night and I was the only one VR. 100% of the time I spotted the contacts 1st and sometimes when I called their location, there was still a brief pause before the next guy spotted them. I deduced from the experience that perhaps VR was giving me the edge.

 

I haven’t flown BOx without VR so I can’t compare with a monitor but often times the aircraft I spot seem artificially enlarged, like the old scaling in Falcon4. Depending on the range, sometimes a 109 almost appears like a 110 in size (too big). Only when I approach it and it draws closer does it scale back more appropriately. Just my personal observation.

 

While I was seeing the contacts 1st, I was also the last to identify what they were. Often times I’m having to get up and read the markings on the wings to identify certain fighters, perhaps I need to fiddle with my VR settings some more.

Edited December 12, 2017 by rweaves6

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

I found that same experience too until I increased the supersampling. Spotting contacts is harder now for the benefit of being able to identify planes sooner.

 

Without SS I was spotting contacts before TIR players. Now I am on par with them again.