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A.I. any possible good news in near future?


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#1 EAF_51_FOX

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 23:27

As we all know A.I. of BOX is at now not very good for many aspects, so I'm to ask if developers are working on the road to give improvements into this area of the game/simulator.  I wish to read here just real and proved feedback, not about polemic responses or debate or personal interpretations, just real news from anyone who really knows if we hopefully could see improvements on A.I. code in near future.

Thank you to everyone who will contribute at this topic. :salute:


Edited by EAF_51_FOX, 06 December 2017 - 23:28.

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#2 sniperton

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 23:39

The AI is too good. The AI is terribly stupid. All this depends on where you see it from. :wacko:


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#3 216th_Jordan

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 00:15

IIRC they should get reworked in the BoBP development cycle, how far that stretches and what exactly it will include in regards to AI I really don't know. But yeah, it needs a good overhaul. So its better to put a programmer on this topic and have him dedicate some months to it rather than putting patches here or there.


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#4 Finkeren

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 00:30

The AI became lame ducks at low altitude with 2.012 to take account of the mountainous terrain of the Kuban map.

The devs are well aware of it, and they plan on making continuous improvements.

Other than the low level behavior, I really don’t think the AI is that bad. Obviously it doesn’t have any real tactical sense, and no real sense of self-preservation, but in other fields it’s kinda ok. Ground attackers are (finally) actually pretty effective, planes that receive damage break off and head for home (if they have a home base to return to, which is why you sometimes won’t see them do it), the AI level of gunners actually makes a real difference now, where before it was all the same.

The AI is far from perfect, but by no means is it all horrible either.
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#5 Gambit21

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 00:32

Fink said it.

Looking forward to the improved behavior in the mountains.


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#6 EAF_Ribbon

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 01:30

There was thread devs made in order to collect feedback to improve AI but they removed it some time ago.
I tried to ask Jason during TS session about AI improvements but wasn't among lucky ones that made it.
I would love to see AI dogfight low on deck among hills and use it's plane advantages better!
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#7 ShamrockOneFive

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 01:35

There was thread devs made in order to collect feedback to improve AI but they removed it some time ago.
I tried to ask Jason during TS session about AI improvements but wasn't among lucky ones that made it.
I would love to see AI dogfight low on deck among hills and use it's plane advantages better!

 

Hoping to do a Q&A with Jason myself. AI is on my list of things to talk with him about.

 

Really, I think IL-2's AI is actually pretty good. They don't fly like complete robots especially since some of the updates they made earlier in the year. They are actually fairly fluid and considering that they truly use the same FM as the player does - that's pretty good.

 

Like most AI, their aim is too good sometimes (at higher levels) but their tactics and strategy are sometimes a bit lacking. As with most AI. I'd love to see any improvements but of course that's all subject to whatever time constraints they are under.


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#8 FuriousMeow

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 02:25

AI will never be great on home PCs. It'll be okay, it'll pass for some. It won't be human like, not anytime soon. Not until home PCs have a dedicated AI processing unit. More advanced AI means stealing more cycles from other processes like the FM, DM, etc.


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#9 SYN_Mike77

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 02:48

Is there a better flight sim ai?  BoX is better that RoF.  Other than that, I just don't know.


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#10 71st_AH_Yankee_

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 03:22

It's actually not too bad... the AI actually has modes where it goes in the vertical instead of just turnfighting everything out there. That alone is a pretty big deal.

 

Though they definitely need to improve the handling near mountains, to be sure. An AI developed to handle steppes does poorly when mountains suddenly pop up. :)


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#11 EAF_Ribbon

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 06:09

It's actually not too bad... the AI actually has modes where it goes in the vertical instead of just turnfighting everything out there. That alone is a pretty big deal.

Though they definitely need to improve the handling near mountains, to be sure. An AI developed to handle steppes does poorly when mountains suddenly pop up. :)

Yes it does go into vertical instead in steep horizontal turn whcih is excellent.
AI can't be perfect, i'm aware of that and il2 AI isn't horrible but who wouldn't want doghfight and pursuit between hills/mountains?

Edited by EAF_Ribbon, 07 December 2017 - 06:35.

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#12 Feathered_IV

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 07:16

It’s not just how they fly. It’s also how they speak and how you command them. Those aspects are very poor too.
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#13 LLv24_Zami

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 08:22

The AI became lame ducks at low altitude with 2.012 to take account of the mountainous terrain of the Kuban map.

The devs are well aware of it, and they plan on making continuous improvements.

Other than the low level behavior, I really don’t think the AI is that bad. Obviously it doesn’t have any real tactical sense, and no real sense of self-preservation, but in other fields it’s kinda ok. Ground attackers are (finally) actually pretty effective, planes that receive damage break off and head for home (if they have a home base to return to, which is why you sometimes won’t see them do it), the AI level of gunners actually makes a real difference now, where before it was all the same.

The AI is far from perfect, but by no means is it all horrible either.

Exactly. 

 

I think we will see some improvements to the AI in the next patch for the most crucial parts. 


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#14 216th_Jordan

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 08:50

It’s not just how they fly. It’s also how they speak and how you command them. Those aspects are very poor too.


This, and also that they aim and shoot where they cannot see or detect you from dead angles. A good AI is the heart of a sim, I'm fairly certain the can come up with great improvements if the want to do it and have time/money for that.
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#15 Ishtaru

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 09:49

It seems you guys have another sim. You speak about "AI is not that bad" and that it needs just minor fixes. It is the complete opposite for me. Are you sure you dont mix SP AIs with MP Players? BoX AI is some of the stupidest and boring AI ever made in my oppinion. The only good thing is that they use the same FM. That is the reason for me not playing since 2 month or so. 


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#16 LLv24_Zami

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 10:14

It seems you guys have another sim. You speak about "AI is not that bad" and that it needs just minor fixes. It is the complete opposite for me. Are you sure you dont mix SP AIs with MP Players? BoX AI is some of the stupidest and boring AI ever made in my oppinion. The only good thing is that they use the same FM. That is the reason for me not playing since 2 month or so. 

Hmm, what game are you playing? And whats the difference between SP and MP, I`m not really sure?


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#17 sniperton

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 10:15

they aim and shoot where they cannot see or detect you from dead angles. A good AI is the heart of a sim, I'm fairly certain the can come up with great improvements if the want to do it and have time/money for that.

It's certainly possible, as good old 1946 AI proves. It would be great to have that level of cooperativeness as well. In many important aspects of gameplay BoX AI is clearly inferior to that of the old title.


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#18 Dakpilot

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 10:31

To be fair old 1946 went though a lot of ai updates in its life, a lot of it done by a dev team as more a labour of love than as an actual business proposition.

Cheers Dakpilot
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#19 sniperton

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 10:58

Sure, but it could be a viable business strategy for BoX as well if you consider that the silent majority of BoX customers are SP gamers. And the need for an improved AI will be also felt by the MP community as soon as the coop mode will be available.


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#20 taffy2jeffmorgan

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 11:05

It’s not just how they fly. It’s also how they speak and how you command them. Those aspects are very poor too.

 I have too agree with this comment, it's been a bone of contention of mine since day one, if you have command of a flight you must be able to delegate other flight members to do what ever you think necessary to defeat the enemy, whether it's air to air or air to ground,   


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#21 Ishtaru

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 11:15

Hmm, what game are you playing? And whats the difference between SP and MP, I`m not really sure?

 

The diffenrence is that in MP you play against other players and in SP you have to play with and against the AI. Maybe my point wasnt clear because of language barrier. 


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#22 LLv24_Zami

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 11:22

The diffenrence is that in MP you play against other players and in SP you have to play with and against the AI. Maybe my point wasnt clear because of language barrier.

Thanks!

Stupid comments are usually replied with stupid comments ;)
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#23 No601_Swallow

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 12:15

It seems you guys have another sim. You speak about "AI is not that bad" and that it needs just minor fixes. It is the complete opposite for me. Are you sure you dont mix SP AIs with MP Players? BoX AI is some of the stupidest and boring AI ever made in my oppinion. The only good thing is that they use the same FM. That is the reason for me not playing since 2 month or so. 

 

I think the AI is very limited and predictable in limited circumstances - by which I mean one-on-one encounters, particularly in the QMB. But in more complex situations, or if there's a mix of AI and MP human pilots, I think they can be very convincing.

 

Good Mission builders can usually compensate for the AI's shortcomings, simply through how they structure encounters.

 

But yeah, the AI should/will/must hopefully improve!


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#24 Jade_Monkey

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 12:30

The thing that throws me off about AI is how they go inverted for a long time until you are close enough and then they dive.

You can see them climbing inverted for a while (wtf??).
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#25 =11=herne

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 12:31

It seems you guys have another sim. You speak about "AI is not that bad" and that it needs just minor fixes. It is the complete opposite for me. Are you sure you dont mix SP AIs with MP Players? BoX AI is some of the stupidest and boring AI ever made in my oppinion. The only good thing is that they use the same FM. That is the reason for me not playing since 2 month or so. 

 

Have you tried the 2 flight vs 2 flight (8v8) quick mission ? I like to play it with all AI at veteran, and I think this is actually quite entertaining. I need to keep a good check of my six as well as picking off targets of opportunity. As others have said fights are also in the vertical.

It's really not that bad.


Edited by =11=herne, 07 December 2017 - 12:32.

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#26 Space_Ghost

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 12:46

Is there a better flight sim ai?  BoX is better that RoF.  Other than that, I just don't know.

 

The AI in Wings: Over Flanders Fields is hands down better than that in BOX and allow for pretty consistent suspension of disbelief.


It seems you guys have another sim. You speak about "AI is not that bad" and that it needs just minor fixes. It is the complete opposite for me.

 

-snip-

 

BoX AI is some of the stupidest and boring AI ever made in my oppinion. The only good thing is that they use the same FM.

 

-snip-

 

+1 the opinions of "It's not that bad." doesn't fit my experience whatsoever.


Thanks!

Stupid comments are usually replied with stupid comments ;)

 

>implying that what Ishtaru said was stupid and/or unfounded.  :rolleyes:


The thing that throws me off about AI is how they go inverted for a long time until you are close enough and then they dive.

You can see them climbing inverted for a while (wtf??).

 

I was told by at least one of the "The AI isn't that bad." players in this thread that they've never seen that happen.

 

Quite frankly, I can't count the number of enemy aircraft that I've shot down that were committed to some sort of negative G inverted climb.

 

There have also been multiple instances where enemy aircraft have flown inverted for at least a klick before seeing me through the solid floor of their aircraft and split-S'ing away with laser precision.

 

I'm a passionate fan of the team and BOX and I'm generally reserved about making criticisms like "The AI is terrible, sucks tremendously and holds back the entire SP experience." but... The AI is terrible, it sucks tremendously and it holds back then entire SP experience.


Have you tried the 2 flight vs 2 flight (8v8) quick mission ? I like to play it with all AI at veteran, and I think this is actually quite entertaining. I need to keep a good check of my six as well as picking off targets of opportunity. As others have said fights are also in the vertical.

It's really not that bad.

 

Yes I have. Yes, the impractical AI behavior persists. Yes, it really is that bad.


Edited by Space_Ghost, 07 December 2017 - 12:44.

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#27 LLv24_Zami

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 13:00

>implying that what Ishtaru said was stupid and/or unfounded. :rolleyes:

To me "Seems like you guys play another sim" and "Are you sure you dont mix SP AI and MP players?" were pretty stupid comments. I think we know the difference.

I don't mean his comments about AI. Thats why my questions were not about them.

Edited by LLv24_T_Zami, 07 December 2017 - 13:22.

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#28 BazzaLB

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 13:07

i doubt the majority of players play online so its dissapointing that more effort isn't put into improving the AI. I don't consider the AI using a sophisticated FM as a bragging point if it struggles to fly the plane in a challenging and realistic fashion. Neither does making up for poor combat ability of the AI by having them fire at you with dead eye accuracy at unrealistic angles add to the experience.
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#29 OrLoK

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 13:15

Im no ace but i find the ai a good challenge and realistic if the mission is put together well.

"Albert's Life" does this well.

Impr9vements are always welcomed but i dont see the AI as a weak point of the game.
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#30 =11=herne

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 13:17

i doubt the majority of players play online so its dissapointing that more effort isn't put into improving the AI. I don't consider the AI using a sophisticated FM as a bragging point if it struggles to fly the plane in a challenging and realistic fashion. Neither does making up for poor combat ability of the AI by having them fire at you with dead eye accuracy at unrealistic angles add to the experience.

 

And here is the real challenge. How do you build a convincing NPC that is not so frustratingly impossible to someone who just bought the game, and is new to Flight Sims, but also challenging to all you desk chair Aces ?

It's an easy thing to say the AI is shit and needs work, but do any of us really appreciate the complexity of the work involved in what we are asking for ?


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#31 Space_Ghost

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 13:31

And here is the real challenge. How do you build a convincing NPC that is not so frustratingly impossible to someone who just bought the game, and is new to Flight Sims, but also challenging to all you desk chair Aces ?

It's an easy thing to say the AI is shit and needs work, but do any of us really appreciate the complexity of the work involved in what we are asking for ?

 

Here's an excerpt from the WOFF devs:

Spoiler
 

 

And another:

Spoiler

 

The AI is shit and it does need work. Yeah, I think all of us appreciate the complexity of creating AI that allows the player to suspend their disbelief.

 

AI lacks revision due to a lack of resources - not improbability/impossibility like some of you seem to think. Doing a better job with the AI isn't some insurmountable task because of underpowered hardware, a lack of coding language or anything else.

 

There are sims with better AI... Shit... 1946 has better AI.

 

It needs to improve.


Edited by Space_Ghost, 07 December 2017 - 13:33.

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#32 =11=herne

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 13:50

Here's an excerpt from the WOFF devs:

Spoiler
 

 

And another:

Spoiler

 

The AI is shit and it does need work. Yeah, I think all of us appreciate the complexity of creating AI that allows the player to suspend their disbelief.

 

AI lacks revision due to a lack of resources - not improbability/impossibility like some of you seem to think. Doing a better job with the AI isn't some insurmountable task because of underpowered hardware, a lack of coding language or anything else.

 

There are sims with better AI... Shit... 1946 has better AI.

 

It needs to improve.

 

 

That was a good read. To be clear I wasn't trying to say that it can't be done, maybe what you've just posted could even be used as a template for a future design document. 

I'm trying to say that if all this needed was a couple of days work, then it would already have been done by now. They would have found a couple of days in the four years or so this series has been in development. 

I never got to try WOFF. Looks like I missed out on a real gem.


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#33 Ishtaru

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 13:52

To me "Seems like you guys play another sim" and "Are you sure you dont mix SP AI and MP players?" were pretty stupid comments. I think we know the difference. I don't mean his comments about AI. Thats why my questions were not about them.

 

Stupid or not, my experience is the complete opposite to the people saying "AI isnt that bad". Maybe my standards are to high but in my opinion, BoXs AI is just bad in pretty much every aspect. I love the game but the AI spoils all the fun after a short while. Thats why i asked these rethoric questions. They werent meant to be serious.


Edited by Ishtaru, 07 December 2017 - 13:54.

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#34 LLv24_Zami

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 14:20

Stupid or not, my experience is the complete opposite to the people saying "AI isnt that bad". Maybe my standards are to high but in my opinion, BoXs AI is just bad in pretty much every aspect. I love the game but the AI spoils all the fun after a short while. Thats why i asked these rethoric questions. They werent meant to be serious.

And my questions were on the same level.

Okay, lets get this thread back to the topic which is the AI :)
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#35 EAF_51_FOX

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 16:06

...There was thread devs made in order to collect feedback to improve AI but they removed it some time ago...
 

That's the main reason I started this Topic infact.. ;)


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#36 EAF_51_FOX

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 16:13

To be fair old 1946 went though a lot of ai updates in its life, a lot of it done by a dev team as more a labour of love than as an actual business proposition.

Cheers Dakpilot

Yep!|.. Would be good if 1C dev. Team/Jason could afford to catch one of "ex-Oleg guys" as A.I. code-developer for BoX! ..Dream? :)


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#37 EAF_Ribbon

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 16:22

Yep!|.. Would be good if 1C dev. Team/Jason could afford to catch one of "ex-Oleg guys" as A.I. code-developer for BoX! ..Dream? :)

Maybe they don't need to catch ex-Oleg's guys but small improvements over time like we have now with gfx features will do it's job.
AI is important part of any game/sim!
Space_Ghost posted nice tips from WOFF in comment above.
Maybe it is too much to expect AI behave like human regarding fear and other things but AI using appropiate skills and tactics for each type of plane and ability to dogfight on deck would be very welcome.

Edited by EAF_Ribbon, 07 December 2017 - 16:26.

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#38 Ishtaru

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 16:31

And my questions were on the same level.

Okay, lets get this thread back to the topic which is the AI :)

 

Ok, a first step to improve could be view restrictions. Must not be different for every plane. A basic model for every fighter plane should be enough with blind spots under the nose (deflection shooting), 3/9 o clock below (wings) and at six o clock (a basic tail). The rear hemisphere detection should be on a lower chance then the front detection probability. We want to sneak on em like we see it often in online videos on youtube. The high deflection shooting ability would be decreased alot and also the 360 degree detection rate and no detection on the blindspots. That would be a good start i think, the rest should follow with time but thats just my opinion.


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#39 Matt

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 16:45

Blind spots already exist for the AI, which is actually causing more problems because as soon as a plane enters the blind spot, the AI basically doesn't remember that there ever was an enemy plane and then starts doing erratic maneuvers.


Edited by Matt, 07 December 2017 - 16:45.

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#40 EAF_51_FOX

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 16:48

Ok, a first step to improve could be view restrictions. Must not be different for every plane. A basic model for every fighter plane should be enough with blind spots under the nose (deflection shooting), 3/9 o clock below (wings) and at six o clock (a basic tail). The rear hemisphere detection should be on a lower chance then the front detection probability. We want to sneak on em like we see it often in online videos on youtube. The high deflection shooting ability would be decreased alot and also the 360 degree detection rate and no detection on the blindspots. That would be a good start i think, the rest should follow with time but thats just my opinion.

Agree !..I don't know if this feature is already present in A.I. code as Matt state, may be is so (I wish) , can anyone else confirm about?


Edited by EAF_51_FOX, 07 December 2017 - 16:51.

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