On the topic of Thunderbolts

[Legioneod]

2 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

I agree, the P-47 is a great bird and I really am looking forward to flying it.

 

They didn't know about specific types - they had no idea an A-8 existed (they knew about a "new" Anton when something interesting happened, but they generally had no idea about the building-blocks or subtypes). Also, the A-8s could have been Sturmböcke or (most likely) flown by green pilots.

The same is true for axis aces, claming they had a field day with a specific enemy type. Chances are, they met a pilot who was green.

I agree with that, if you look at German ace kills, most were from the eastern front, but if you look at the amount of kills they got on the western front it was usually very low. This most likely was due to the skill of the pilots and the aircraft they were fighting.

[Gambit21]

14 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

True, but there is no denying that the P-47 was a good fighter and proved itself in combat. The 56th is a testament to it's fighting capabilities.

 

As is the 365th, and 404th...

 

Up high it was hard to beat, and gave as good as it got down low, owing in part to the inexperience of most Luftwaffe pilots late in the war, but

in the right hands it was a beast at all altitudes. Often "down low" in a Jug meant a healthy head of steam having just been up high.

 

That said, I did have Don Bryan tell me over the phone "it wasn't worth a damn down low against 109's"

He was flying the P-51D by the time he was mixing it up down low with 109's though.

 

[DetCord12B]

On 3/10/2018 at 12:46 PM, Necrobaron said:

 

 

Off topic but am I seeing some markings that say ME 209? If so, given the rarity and experimental nature of the 209 this surely was a misidentification but with what, I wonder? Some of the said markings honestly looks more like NE 209 or 200 but that makes even less sense. Maybe MC 200?

 

Yeah, they're misidents. Kill list.

 

 

[Talon_]

2 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

Depends on what you mean by "damaged". If there's physical damage to the compressor or turbine-section, you can prepare to kiss your little butt goodbye. That thing rotates at ridiculous RPMs and if anything fails - well, you'll have more than a just thought crossing your mind...

 

Gabreski flew home with his turbo in tatters. It killed the engine until he got low enough that the engine could breathe without it, at which point he restarted it and flew home.

[novicebutdeadly]

4 hours ago, Legioneod said:

I agree with that, if you look at German ace kills, most were from the eastern front, but if you look at the amount of kills they got on the western front it was usually very low. This most likely was due to the skill of the pilots and the aircraft they were fighting.

More of a combination of factors,

like the air war in the east was different to the west, by the time the war in the west had elements of the eastern air war (fighter bombers supporting the army etc) the air war was lost.

The aces in the east could continue to rack up kills because the nature of the air war meant that a rotte could fly around and attack ground pounders, they could fly around and swoop on lower flying fighters etc,

in the west once the fighter sweeps started in advance of the bomber formations, the luftwaffe were the one's being swooped on. They had no freedom of movement, they could rarely dictate the fight, and no matter how much of an expert they were their days were numbered (and training also suffered).

Pilot skill comes into the equation, but is trumped by sheer numbers, no matter how good one pilot is if there is 1 of them and 10-15 of the enemy the best case scenario is that they survive but are unable to carry out their objective.

The aircraft they were fighting against were designed for the altitudes of the fight (P47, P51 D), whereas the Germans went from having to focus on medium to low altitudes to change their focus to high altitudes, a change that they didn't seem prepared for.

[Ehret]

It doesn't matter if the Germans would fare better in the West. As long they weren't able to hit back the result stays the same. They were defending against bombers streams which alone wouldn't stop attrition, let alone the defeat. At best they'd perish at later date.

[Bremspropeller]

19 hours ago, novicebutdeadly said:

More of a combination of factors,

like the air war in the east was different to the west, by the time the war in the west had elements of the eastern air war (fighter bombers supporting the army etc) the air war was lost.

 

There once was a great, great article on Falkeeins on why the Luftwaffe sucked so bad in aerial superiority.

EDIT: Found it...

http://falkeeins.blogspot.com/2018/06/notes-on-cult-of-fighter-ace-in.html

 

It's basicly down to a few aces swooping through the sky, making all the claims and racking up huge kill-numbers (some being a bit overly optimistic, too), while the vast majority of fighter-pilots was just supposed to fly wing and count/ validate kills.

 

The air war in the east greatly favoured that approach and this is one of the major reasons why many eastern front hot-shots got their butts kicked quickly in the west. There you needed a team - your entire Staffel - to fight effectively.

 

There was also a sub-mention of how some of the best "aces" were poor formation-leaders and were ill-suited for command. Yet success lead to rank which lead to privileges...

 

 

The whole aspect of the Luftwaffe's failure in achieving total air superiority (or even air supremacy) is very interesting.

Andof course there's always the numbers-game.

Edited August 28, 2018 by Bremspropeller

[EAF19_Marsh]

Arguably not until 1944 does VVS training, aircraft (with decent radios) and concentration really rival the Luftwaffe fighter arm. This had begun earlier in the West. Added to this is the defensive nature of the Western theatre, with focus on medium and heavy bombers that could not so easily be attacked on the fly as Soviet tacticsl formations. Arguably, the situation over France and Germany was more punishing of mistakes and demanded better leadership skills.

 

Faced by pilot with better basic training, more sophisticated aircraft and concentration of numbers, German fighter losses climb quickly and the cumulative result (stripping units of experienced pilots) is more rapid.

 

Not that the East was ‘easy’, but operations better suited German tactics and aircraft than the continuous, focussed and punishing engagements facing the Western force from 1943 onwards. Even on ‘good’ days, losses in aircraft and pilots were high and hence the wider force starts to go downhill more rapidly.

 

That is my reading of what occurred in brief.

[novicebutdeadly]

9 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

 

There once was a great, great article on Falkeeins on why the Luftwaffe sucked so bad in aerial superiority.

EDIT: Found it...

http://falkeeins.blogspot.com/2018/06/notes-on-cult-of-fighter-ace-in.html

 

It's basicly down to a few aces swooping through the sky, making all the claims and racking up huge kill-numbers (some being a bit overly optimistic, too), while the vast majority of fighter-pilots was just supposed to fly wing and count/ validate kills.

 

The air war in the east greatly favoured that approach and this is one of the major reasons why many eastern front hot-shots got their butts kicked quickly in the west. There you needed a team - your entire Staffel - to fight effectively.

 

There was also a sub-mention of how some of the best "aces" were poor formation-leaders and were ill-suited for command. Yet success lead to rank which lead to privileges...

 

 

The whole aspect of the Luftwaffe's failure in achieving total air superiority (or even air supremacy) is very interesting.

Andof course there's always the numbers-game.

I remember a certain incident where a top Luftwaffe ace decided to show his young squad how to dogfight, he git shot down and the youngsters ran.... instead of just showing the squad how to work as a team,

take down the lone fighter, and then go after the un-protected bombers....

[CrazyDuck]

11 hours ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

Not that the East was ‘easy’, but operations better suited German tactics and aircraft than the continuous, focussed and punishing engagements facing the Western force from 1943 onwards.

 

Couldn't have said it better. Both Luftwaffe and VVS were generally considered as a flying artillery for the support of the ground units. And while Germans did win the aerial engagments K/D ratio and thus a "battle", it was the Russians that pushed through and won the "outproduce, not outkill" battle, and thus the war.

[IVJG4-Knight]

On 8/27/2018 at 10:54 PM, Legioneod said:

I agree with that, if you look at German ace kills, most were from the eastern front, but if you look at the amount of kills they got on the western front it was usually very low. This most likely was due to the skill of the pilots and the aircraft they were fighting.

 

And the fact they had to fight one million billion planes at once was not a factor ?

And the fact that Galland who had great ability as a leader and strategist was constantly overruled by the likes of Göring and Hitler .

And the lack of fuel .

And the fact that some of their wingmen had few hours of training .

 

 

Edited August 29, 2018 by IVJG4-Knight

[ZachariasX]

1 hour ago, IVJG4-Knight said:

And the fact they had to fight one million billion planes at once was not a factor ?

There were "mone million billion trillion" planes in the east as well.

 

1 hour ago, IVJG4-Knight said:

And the fact that Galland who had great ability as a leader and strategist

Says who?

 

1 hour ago, IVJG4-Knight said:

was constantly overruled by the likes of Göring and Hitler .

Poor lad.

 

1 hour ago, IVJG4-Knight said:

And the lack of fuel .

They could have refueled planes for which there no crews with sufficient training. They would actually have a lot fuel surplus to send it to the training units. And besides, if the student pilot is required at the front just after a couple of flights, full barrels of fuel standing around on the training field just make a larger fire next time the other teams take a pass at it.

 

1 hour ago, IVJG4-Knight said:

And the fact that some of their wingmen had few hours of training .

Expending them like many did, they ensured that those poor souls would never get much flight time.

[Ehret]

3 hours ago, CrazyDuck said:

Couldn't have said it better. Both Luftwaffe and VVS were generally considered as a flying artillery for the support of the ground units. And while Germans did win the aerial engagments K/D ratio and thus a "battle", it was the Russians that pushed through and won the "outproduce, not outkill" battle, and thus the war.

 

Yup - the air power is not about air. The major role of fighters is to defend ground (or naval) assets and facilitate attack on the enemy's.

Edited August 29, 2018 by Ehret

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

4 hours ago, IVJG4-Knight said:

And the fact they had to fight one million billion planes at once was not a factor ?

And the fact that Galland who had great ability as a leader and strategist was constantly overruled by the likes of Göring and Hitler .

And the lack of fuel .

And the fact that some of their wingmen had few hours of training .

Maybe it would've been smarter idea not to start a war but rather sit tight and fix problems in peaceful manner ? Luftwaffe would certainly not face millions of billions of planes, Galland would possibly be overruled less by Goring and Hitler, planes wouldnt lack fuel since they wouldn't use any for combat and wingmen could build more flying time than four hours ?

 

Oh poor Luftwaffe and problems they faced. Or rather problems they created themselves as a part of German war machine.

[1PL-Banzai-1Esk]

7 minutes ago, =362nd_FS=Hiromachi said:

Maybe it would've been smarter idea not to start a war but rather sit tight and fix problems in peaceful manner ? Luftwaffe would certainly not face millions of billions of planes, Galland would possibly be overruled less by Goring and Hitler, planes wouldnt lack fuel since they wouldn't use any for combat and wingmen could build more flying time than four hours ?

 

Oh poor Luftwaffe and problems they faced. Or rather problems they created themselves as a part of German war machine.

But what about all the lebensraum and proving that they were the ubermenschen. Lol. Biggest bunch of loosers in recent history.

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

2 minutes ago, 307_Banzai said:

But what about all the lebensraum and proving that they were the ubermenschen.

#DanzigistDeutsch

 

It's funny that all the excuses that can be brought up for struggle of Luftwaffe against the Allies in 1943-1945 air combat could in smaller or greater part be applied to opponents Luftwaffe faced earlier, in 1939-1942 period. But you dont see those opponents being given benefit of such excuses.

[Bremspropeller]

5 hours ago, IVJG4-Knight said:

And the fact that Galland who had great ability as a leader and strategist was constantly overruled by the likes of Göring and Hitler .

 

The myth that Galland was the greatest thing since sliced bread has pretty much been spread by Galland and his friends Bader, Clostermann etc.*

All of the three are very similar in personality and all of them are a good bit full of sh1t.

 

Especially Galland has been proven wrong or lying multiple times by more contemporary work (such as Dr. Prien and others). The greatest part of Galland's greatness being overruled by his seemingly stupid bosses** comes from them not being able to speak since they were long dead at the moment. Pilots who had to carry the burden of bright ideas such as Bodenplatte certainly weren't all that blows away by his greatness.

 

5 hours ago, CrazyDuck said:

Couldn't have said it better. Both Luftwaffe and VVS were generally considered as a flying artillery for the support of the ground units. And while Germans did win the aerial engagments K/D ratio and thus a "battle", it was the Russians that pushed through and won the "outproduce, not outkill" battle, and thus the war.

 

And the Luftwaffe had too few Geschwader around to go for trophy-hunting. There were endless stretches of frontline that weren't even covered by the Luftwaffe at all. Only the Schwerpunkte (focal points) did have the luxury of Luftwaffe coverage. The assets they had were wasted by poor strategical planning and little to no ideas about gaining and holding aerial supremacy (which could have been achieved had they wanted and planned (!!) to).

 

Erich Rudorffer (who has been shown of being a bit overconfident in his kill claims on several occasions***) mentions in Eric Mombeek's great work about JG 2 that in Tunisia there was a great deal of pressure and eagerness to score and claim kills. He found the environment to be exhaustive, lacking in esprit de corps and generally not favourable.

 

The Luftwaffe sees to really have had major issues with leadership - not just on top-tier level, but even more so on intermediate levels where there really is a make-or-break impact when decisions are made.

 

_____

* And by 50s "historians" who needed Our Germans (TM) as a partner agains them goddamn godless commies (TM).

** Make no mistake - they certainly weren't Nobel Prize candidates by any mark.

*** He comes across as open and honest in Mombeek's book. Probaly the distance of 70 years has had him re-evaluate things. Rudorffer certainly is a very interesting pilot - not only for having scored on almost all theatres of operation; he also survived multiple crashes and bailouts and seemed to have had an interesting post-war flying career.

[Garven]

If factory tests show that the R-2800 could do 100hrs straight on WEP wouldn't it make sense to allow all 15min of WEP to be used at once without breaks every 5 minutes?  Does the flight manual say how long a break needs to be between 5 minute periods?

 

Wonder if we will get any incendiary ordnance for the Thunderbolt. 

[ZachariasX]

32 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

All of the three are very similar in personality and all of them are a good bit full of sh1t.

While they were certainly good sports, at least two of them were not incurable Nazis.

 

It was really problematic back then in the 50's 60's, that you had these great story tellers that very much were in the fog of war themselves, not having had a clear view of what really made things happen. It is especially tragic in the case of Galland, where he in fact was in a position to get a broader oversight, however he was stunningly incompetent regarding any real organizational and technical issues. He truly was a great sport and he could learn from the best, Mölders. And he just didn't get it why the others didn't become "good like him" just like that.

 

It is only now that we have solid info on the war, as the documents are declassified and those first hand accounts from back then, well, they are stories. Some better, some less so. But it is a detective's work to find out what exactly went on during those narratives.

[Legioneod]

1 minute ago, Garven_Dreis said:

If factory tests show that the R-2800 could do 100hrs straight on WEP wouldn't it make sense to allow all 15min of WEP to be used at once without breaks every 5 minutes?  Does the flight manual say how long a break needs to be between 5 minute periods?

 

Wonder if we will get any incendiary ordnance for the Thunderbolt. 

Maybe, it's really just up to the devs. In reality you can run full WEP until you run out of water injection, after that you run a high risk of detonation and engine failure. 

Basically all engine limitations were to preserve the engine for future flight. The way they model engine limits in game is incorrect, a compromise could be for the timers to reset after a cool down (unless you've run out of MW50/Water Injection, etc)

Engines were not overhauled after every flight, in reality the time limits were to keep from causing unneeded wear on the engine. 

 

Time limits aren't some magical number that just break the engine when you go over it, it just shortens the engines life and requires rebuild/replacement sooner rather than later. I don't mind engines being slowly damaged after going over time limits (for gameplay sake) but I can't stand getting a completely dead engine after going a second over the limit.

 

There should be more randomness and give when it comes to engine limits.

[ZachariasX]

10 minutes ago, Garven_Dreis said:

Does the flight manual say how long a break needs to be between 5 minute periods?

 

This is not how it works. A 5 minute intervall was just given to keep pilots from operating the engine at that rating constantly and produce short overhaul cycles.

 

Herem from the P-51-D-5 manual from April 5, 1944

 

b. WAR EMERGENCY RATING.

( l) GENERAL.

( a) The basis for establishing the War Emergency Rating,

given on the Specific Engine Flight Chart in Section III,

is to make available to the pilot in combat the absolute
maximum manifold pressure at which the engine may be
operated, within reasonable safety limits, for a 5-minute
period under emergency conditions.

(b) The War Emergcncy Rating is considerably in
excess of the ratings given in the engine specification under
which the engine was delivered. Use of the War Emergency
Rating will decrease the engine's normal service life and
time between overhauls, and therefore should be held for
use only when emergency conditions exist. The War Emergency
Rating is not a guaranteed power rating; it is a
maximum manifold pressure rating, available for emergency
operation only, as established by the correct setting of the
automatic manifold pressure regulator, and the correct setting
of the propeller governor to allow the propeller to
turn at 3000 rpm.

 

If your emergency is in excess of 5 minutes, you are free to use that power. As long as your engine doesn't overheat, it's fine. You just need to overhaul the engine sooner. This is why it is in excess of the ratings. Ratings ensure operating cycles.

[Voidhunger]

report from replacement of DB 605DB w.Nr. 011102668

 

8 hours,

crankpin bearings 1,3,4,5 and 6 jammed

bearing 2 worn out.

The engine probably ran on Sondernotleistung too long

 

I suppose it was possible to fly with this engine and land.

 

From the P-47 manual:

 

 

[Legioneod]

25 minutes ago, Voidhunger said:

report from replacement of DB 605DB w.Nr. 011102668

 

8 hours,

crankpin bearings 1,3,4,5 and 6 jammed

bearing 2 worn out.

The engine probably ran on Sondernotleistung too long

 

I suppose it was possible to fly with this engine and land.

 

From the P-47 manual:

Those ratings are for the P-47N, the D-28 has lower settings unless we get 150 fuel. With 150 fuel it was cleared for 70", though I've read Gabreski push 72" on occasion.

 

 

Edited August 29, 2018 by Legioneod

[ZachariasX]

"Like ammunition, the water should be hoarded until needed".

 

You are meant to use it. Just don't use it before you are in a situation....

Edited August 29, 2018 by ZachariasX

[Voidhunger]

52 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

Those ratings are for the P-47N, the D-28 has lower settings unless we get 150 fuel. With 150 fuel it was cleared for 70", though I've read Gabreski push 72" on occasion.

 

 

 

I posted it only for info, that the engine didnt blow up after 5 minutes of emergency power

Edited August 29, 2018 by Voidhunger

[Ehret]

1 hour ago, ZachariasX said:

If your emergency is in excess of 5 minutes, you are free to use that power. As long as your engine doesn't overheat, it's fine. You just need to overhaul the engine sooner. This is why it is in excess of the ratings. Ratings ensure operating cycles.

 

It would be nice to have this reflected in the game, somehow. Time limiters are artificial for all planes but it's understandable why they are here. Kind of inter-sortie wear and logistics, where one would have to care about the airplane could do a trick...

[ZachariasX]

7 minutes ago, Ehret said:

 

It would be nice to have this reflected in the game, somehow. Time limiters are artificial for all planes but it's understandable why they are here. Kind of inter-sortie wear and logistics, where one would have to care about the airplane could do a trick...

Persistent damage to planes would be great especially for SP career.

 

Other than that, we do have certain planes that could actually be run such that the engine blows up within minutes. And they sometimes have an automatic governor as well. It’s very easy to be accused of partisanship by not (and often wrongly) going after rated maxima.

Edited August 29, 2018 by ZachariasX

[Garven]

I Just hope we are able to tap into all 15 minutes worth of water and not limited to just to 5 minutes.

[LukeFF]

8 hours ago, IVJG4-Knight said:

And the fact that Galland who had great ability as a leader and strategist was constantly overruled by the likes of Göring and Hitler .

 

Ah yes, the ol' "blame Hitler for everything" fallacy. Frankly, the more I read Galland's writings, the more I realize he was full of himself (the latest example: his quote about the Knight's Cross being a required part of the uniform for JV 44). ?

[RedKestrel]

31 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

Ah yes, the ol' "blame Hitler for everything" fallacy. Frankly, the more I read Galland's writings, the more I realize he was full of himself (the latest example: his quote about the Knight's Cross being a required part of the uniform for JV 44). ?

Considering his return to the German military post-war, Galland had some compelling political, professional and personal reasons to exaggerate any differences or conflict he'd had with the Nazi high command. I think we have to read anything he's written through that lens. Its tempting to disregard that context because he fits so well into people's "noble knight of the air" archetype.

[IVJG4-Knight]

21 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

There were "mone million billion trillion" planes in the east as well.

 

 

They could have refueled planes for which there no crews with sufficient training. They would actually have a lot fuel surplus to send it to the training units. And besides, if the student pilot is required at the front just after a couple of flights, full barrels of fuel standing around on the training field just make a larger fire next time the other teams take a pass at it.

 

Expending them like many did, they ensured that those poor souls would never get much flight time.

 

No there were not on million billion trillion planes in the east as well:

 

300,557+ 131,549 US + UK = 432 106 UK and US planes

158,220 USSR planes

119,907 German planes  divided on multiple fronts

76,320 japanese planes.

Superiority  of  numbers for Allies on western front is black and white obvious.

 

Ask milomorai about fuel.Because he always posts how little fuel the germans had.

 

And i don't understand what you're trying to say in  the second paragraph.

 

 

19 hours ago, =362nd_FS=Hiromachi said:

Maybe it would've been smarter idea not to start a war but rather sit tight and fix problems in peaceful manner ? Luftwaffe would certainly not face millions of billions of planes, Galland would possibly be overruled less by Goring and Hitler, planes wouldnt lack fuel since they wouldn't use any for combat and wingmen could build more flying time than four hours ?

 

Oh poor Luftwaffe and problems they faced. Or rather problems they created themselves as a part of German war machine.

 

I don't disagree with that at all Germany during WW2 is pitch black morally .It was a stupid war but allies had their own fault by forcing too high damages payments on Germany after WW1.

 

Russia also attacked Poland but that was fine it seems with the allies.And Finland.

 

19 hours ago, 307_Banzai said:

But what about all the lebensraum and proving that they were the ubermenschen. Lol. Biggest bunch of loosers in recent history.

 

US certainly "brushed under the carpet " the native americans for more lebensraum.

Uk certainly conquered half the globe for more lebensraum.

Shall i go on ?

 

19 hours ago, =362nd_FS=Hiromachi said:

#DanzigistDeutsch

 

It's funny that all the excuses that can be brought up for struggle of Luftwaffe against the Allies in 1943-1945 air combat could in smaller or greater part be applied to opponents Luftwaffe faced earlier, in 1939-1942 period. But you dont see those opponents being given benefit of such excuses.

 

That is also true .

 

18 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

 

The myth that Galland was the greatest thing since sliced bread has pretty much been spread by Galland and his friends Bader, Clostermann etc.*

All of the three are very similar in personality and all of them are a good bit full of sh1t.

 

Especially Galland has been proven wrong or lying multiple times by more contemporary work (such as Dr. Prien and others). The greatest part of Galland's greatness being overruled by his seemingly stupid bosses** comes from them not being able to speak since they were long dead at the moment. Pilots who had to carry the burden of bright ideas such as Bodenplatte certainly weren't all that blows away by his greatness.

 

 

And the Luftwaffe had too few Geschwader around to go for trophy-hunting. There were endless stretches of frontline that weren't even covered by the Luftwaffe at all. Only the Schwerpunkte (focal points) did have the luxury of Luftwaffe coverage. The assets they had were wasted by poor strategical planning and little to no ideas about gaining and holding aerial supremacy (which could have been achieved had they wanted and planned (!!) to).

 

Erich Rudorffer (who has been shown of being a bit overconfident in his kill claims on several occasions***) mentions in Eric Mombeek's great work about JG 2 that in Tunisia there was a great deal of pressure and eagerness to score and claim kills. He found the environment to be exhaustive, lacking in esprit de corps and generally not favourable.

 

The Luftwaffe sees to really have had major issues with leadership - not just on top-tier level, but even more so on intermediate levels where there really is a make-or-break impact when decisions are made.

 

_____

* And by 50s "historians" who needed Our Germans (TM) as a partner agains them goddamn godless commies (TM).

** Make no mistake - they certainly weren't Nobel Prize candidates by any mark.

*** He comes across as open and honest in Mombeek's book. Probaly the distance of 70 years has had him re-evaluate things. Rudorffer certainly is a very interesting pilot - not only for having scored on almost all theatres of operation; he also survived multiple crashes and bailouts and seemed to have had an interesting post-war flying career.

 

*During Bodenplatte and Ardennes offensive Galland's command was given to  Peltz.

 

*One of the things that distinguished Galland as a tactician was the "Channel dash " operation.

 

*He tried to build a large fighter force that would attack the american bomber raids with superior numbers(few thousand german fighters at once).I think is was a good idea. This was an operation consisting of many moving parts .He believed he needed more fuel for training and there just wasn't enough.They tried on a much smaller scale and it didn't work but i don't think it was Galland's fault as there were too few german aircraft involved and too little training.

 

*During Battle fo Britain Galland had the same idea as Doolitle .For fighters not to offer too close of a  cover for bombers  but  fly in front of the bomber formation and engage the enemy fighters  freely well in front of the bomber formation.He argued with Goring but was denied and that's why, out of frustration, he famously asked for Spitfire planes because it was more suited for the close cover he was forced to offer to the german bomber formations.

 

*AFAIK He tried to build me 262 only and stop production of 109's entirely .That would bring me262 in service one year early and in large enough numbers to fight the american bombers more efficiently .But he knew the war was lost.

 

*Any historian who thinks commanders like Galland or Rommel were not above Goring and HItler in competence should go take a nap.And the HIter is not alive to dispute what other say is the biggest nonsense i ever heard.Even if he was alive considering the incompetence he showed: 

-Declaring war on US for nothing (That's a fact and historians pointing out if and when that would have happened anyway is speculation).

-Changing focus from bombing air bases  during BOB to bombing London because of he's ego.Israel during the 6 day war achieved a brilliant victory by attacking the enemy's air bases.I bet if they bombed Cairo that would be considered quite stupid.

-Stopping tanks from eliminating the dunkirk pocket because he believed the English were of the same master race as germans 

etc etc.

-Suicidal missions like 7 april 1945.

As well as the insanity he showed nobody in their right mind would believe him.

And Goring was a drug addict who spent time overeating and stealing art or fighting with Martin Bormann over political power.

 

*Galland lied and he did mistakes so he's human .So did Napoleon and he's one of the greatest military leaders ever.

That doesn't mean i tihnk Galland is the same as Napoleon but certainly well above the like of Hitler and Goring. 

 

I don't see more of  a problem with intermediate level leadership or tactics than other contries had.Allies used vic formation and  line of idiots formation during BOB so their officers weren't that perfect either.

 

-During Bodenplatte and Ardennes offensive Galland's command was given to  Peltz.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 30, 2018 by IVJG4-Knight

[ZachariasX]

3 hours ago, IVJG4-Knight said:

Superiority  of  numbers for Allies on western front is black and white obvious.

Was never questioning that. I was just chanting on your gazillions:

On 8/29/2018 at 11:07 AM, IVJG4-Knight said:

And the fact they had to fight one million billion planes

 

But you are quiet right, the Germans were outnumbered.

 

3 hours ago, IVJG4-Knight said:

Ask milomorai about fuel.Because he always posts how little fuel the germans had.

Why not ask Milo? You can do much worse here.

 

But the "we had too little fuel" is something that you should more scrutiny on.

 

First of all, it was a lame (another) excuse for basically failing at everything. When they said "We didn't have the fuel", then that means they didn't have the fuel at their airfield at the time they "lined up next to the pump". But in fact, it was another great demonstration of how kaputt the allocation scheme was withing the Nazi oligarchy (wich in facht, it was). It is not easy to allocate a limited ressource to best effect, especially when you have Gauleiter that behaved like little kings, relentless in their effort in claiming everything for their own.

 

This complete break down in logistics didn't happen to other nations when they had a tough time. Makeshift improvization and being ressourceful was a great asset to the Germans as long as things worked out. But as soon as tables turned, then having a viable command structure makes all the difference in the world. Lunatics in a shouting contest are of little use. They had to produce a lot more fuel than actually needed to hand it to every unit.

 

3 hours ago, IVJG4-Knight said:

And i don't understand what you're trying to say in  the second paragraph.

You said that it was somehow known that Galland was a brilliant strategist. I wondered who would say such a thing (besides himselfe, indemnifying himself from all the failings).

 

In fact, I would argue that he was very much a nail on the coffin of the Luftwaffe. He had absolutely no understanding of technology whatsoever and he was, even in hindsight, the main advocate of the idea that success in combat is just a matter of attitude. He was very much in line with Goering on that. Goering said they were not sucessful because they wre cowards. Galland took that personal because he agreed with the premise, the thing being an attitude problem. It just eluded his mind that not everybody could go and have practise in the field along with Moelders, survive a good number of missions and then suddenly being "above average".

 

He did want to discontinue the Bf-109 and he wanted Me-262 instead. Yes. But did he ever say where he would get them from? The plane was "good besides having bad engines". What kind of a stupid assesment. Why not tow the crate until they get good engines? Or what was he talking about? He had no clue about how mass production works, nor had he ever interest in such. Milch was one of the very, very few who did on the German side. If it wasn't for him, all the companies probably produced some aircraft just as they liked them. No wonder the Nazis had to keep him, even though Milch was of Jewish origin.

 

Who said Galland was a brilliant strategist? (His flying buddies from his own as well as from the guest teams can hardly count on that vote.)

 

3 hours ago, IVJG4-Knight said:

*One of the things that distinguished Galland as a tactician was the "Channel dash " operation.

He organized a sucessful tactical operation. Hardly makes him a "strategist".

 

3 hours ago, IVJG4-Knight said:

*He tried to build a large fighter force that would attack the american bomber raids with superior numbers

It would have been the last sortie of the Luftwaffe as the knew it. But surely an end worthy of remembrance.

 

It ws a good idea that they chose "non-moving" aircraft as targets for their aircrews. The overhelming majority was even overhelmed with that task.

 

3 hours ago, IVJG4-Knight said:

*During Battle fo Britain Galland had the same idea as Doolitle .For fighters not to offer too close of a  cover for bombers  but  fly in front of the bomber formation and engage the enemy fighters  freely well in front of the bomber formation.

That would surely have helped his personal scoring. But you need a lot of fighters to do that, and you need fighters that can loiter for longer than 5 minutes over the target. RAF still could have assembled in large numbers, even within eyesight of the 109's over London, and just wait for the red light in the 109 cockpits to turn on. If all the CAP you can bring is 5 minutes over the target and the enemy still has the free ability to assemble within close distance of you, then you may have to come up with better ideas. And a nice illustration between the main difference of the Mustang and the Bf-109.

 

3 hours ago, IVJG4-Knight said:

*Any historian who thinks commanders like Galland or Rommel were not above Goring and HItler in competence should go take a nap.

Rommel, probably, Galland... not so sure. Comapring lemons here with Hitler and Galland. Also, Rommel lead battles and didn't conquer Lebensraum. I doubt GröFAZ and Rommel were playing the same game.

 

3 hours ago, IVJG4-Knight said:

allies had their own fault by forcing too high damages payments on Germany after WW1.

I can think of a lot of countries treated in a much worse way after they lost a war.

 

But we can give credit to Germany that, despite all that happened, at least in the second attempt to recover from a lost war, they did that much better than most other countries. A slight introspection shouldn't be considered as weakness. And fingerpointing never helped there as well.

 

Edited August 30, 2018 by ZachariasX
typos...

[=362nd_FS=RoflSeal]

7 hours ago, IVJG4-Knight said:

 

-Changing focus from bombing air bases  during BOB to bombing London because of he's ego.Israel during the 6 day war achieved a brilliant victory by attacking the enemy's air bases.I bet if they bombed Cairo that would be considered quite stupid.

-Stopping tanks from eliminating the dunkirk pocket because he believed the English were of the same master race as germans 

etc etc.

 

 

 

 

1) Unlike Egypt, the United Kingdom was an OEM producer of aircraft. Secondly, unlike the Israeli Airforce, the Luftwaffe was no way capable of neutralizing the RAF, considering the 6 day war was started by Israel on surprised Arab neighbours. A more apt comparison is Barbarossa, but again the Soviet Union was a large manufacturer of aircraft and could replace losses, unlike Egypt. The Luftwaffe did very little damage to the RAF during the battle of Britain, proving ineffective at knocking out radar stations, and knocking out only 1 airfield for more then 24 hours during the entire battle. The Luftwaffe lost large numbers of aircraft, especially bombers, with little to show for it, meanwhile Fighter Command grew, production easily being able to keep up with losses. In the attritional air war of the BoB, the Luftwaffe had lost, whether they switched to city bombing or not.

2) This had more to do with von Runstedt and the fact that the Army Group A's Panzer divisions had long outrun their logistics and were low on fuel and ammunitions. Also there was a fear of Panzer divisions of Army Group A being cut off like they nearly were at Arras, two days before the call to halt. If the Panzer divisions advanced, their position would be untenable in the face of a counter attack. Either way, the halt order lasted only 2 days, a brief respite for the British and French forces on the beach which were still under attack from everything the Luftwaffe and Army Group B could throw at them.

Edited August 30, 2018 by RoflSeal

[SYN_Haashashin]

Hi all,

 

I will only say it once, no politics at all..past or present.

 

Haash

[Legioneod]

[edited]

 

Please follow rule 6. Thank you.

 

Haash

Edited August 30, 2018 by SYN_Haashashin

[MiloMorai]

Someone mentioned German avgas.

[IVJG4-Knight]

[edited]

 

To talk about history use the right subtopic but do not mention any politics. This is not the place. Next off topic post will be deleted without warning.

 

Haash

 

 

 

 

Edited August 31, 2018 by SYN_Haashashin

[Garven]

On 8/30/2018 at 5:42 AM, ZachariasX said:

 

First of all, it was a lame (another) excuse for basically failing at everything. When they said "We didn't have the fuel", then that means they didn't have the fuel at their airfield at the time they "lined up next to the pump". But in fact, it was another great demonstration of how kaputt the allocation scheme was withing the Nazi oligarchy (wich in facht, it was). It is not easy to allocate a limited ressource to best effect, especially when you have Gauleiter that behaved like little kings, relentless in their effort in claiming everything for their own.

 

Remember reading in Cornelius Ryan's The Last Battle, that a German official (Goring?) had a whole truck convoy reserved to move his precious stolen treasures. 

 

Now back on topic:  Does anyone know if the 9th air-force P-47's employed napalm during the time frame we're getting in game?

[Gambit21]

Yes they did

[Talon_]

As seen here on a D-28RA

 

https://retromechanix.com/preparing-a-napalm-bomb-for-a-republic-p-47d-thunderbolt/nggallery/image/filling-two-fire-bombs-mounted-on-a-p-47d-with-thickened-fuel-using-the-e2-fuel-mixing-and-transfer-kit

 

 

 

Upper right shows D-28RA

Edited August 31, 2018 by Talon_