On the topic of Thunderbolts

[ZachariasX]

4 minutes ago, Garven_Dreis said:

Nice repaint!

 

How many oil changes do you have to miss with your car to get engine oil that black?

[-TBC-AeroAce]

32 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

Nice repaint!

 

How many oil changes do you have to miss with your car to get engine oil that black?

 

Two things strike me about that photo.  The size of that leak and the size of the plane. 

[BlitzPig_EL]

All that oil loss and the R2800 still got him home.

 

I wonder how that will work in the sim...  ?

[PainGod85]

1 hour ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

All that oil loss and the R2800 still got him home.

 

I wonder how that will work in the sim...  ?

 

How about "Not at all"?

 

And I wish it were going to work like that in the sim.

[Georgio]

That must have happened on the ground, he would have never seen out of the canopy to get that crate down.

[Garven]

A caption says an oil line ruptured in flight.

[Georgio]

1 minute ago, Garven_Dreis said:

A caption says an oil line ruptured in flight.

 

All the more impressive then as that canopy looks pretty opaque, surprised he didn't bail.

[7.GShAP/Silas]

I've seen similar pictures from an IL-2 that suffered battle damage in flight, when the pilot managed to get it back home he immediately dismounted and vomited out the large amounts of oil he had ingested.

 

Anyway, hopefully as things like the more detailed fuel system modelling are released we'll have more of that space between a pristine aircraft and a wreck that is so engaging to deal with.

 

P.S. My god that polished metal is just so nice to look at!  The most beautiful thing about American aircraft.

Edited October 16, 2018 by 7.GShAP/Silas

[Legioneod]

10 minutes ago, Georgio said:

 

All the more impressive then as that canopy looks pretty opaque, surprised he didn't bail.

Instrument flying. They were trained to fly with almost zero visibility iirc.

[Garven]

6 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

 

How many oil changes do you have to miss with your car to get engine oil that black?

I don't know about you, but I change it on time and it is pretty darn black. 

[ZachariasX]

1 hour ago, Garven_Dreis said:

I don't know about you, but I change it on time and it is pretty darn black. 

Looking at oil consumption of the P&W and time for oil change, it should be fairly „young“ oil that sprayed the aircraft. Much younger than when you‘d do an oil change.

 

But besides my silly remark, the color would depend on the heat of the engine and the additives they put in the oil. I find it noticeable that today it takes longer to make it dark and opaque almost as black paint than it took with the old stuff. Oil that has 100 hours or so use is still looking rather fresh. When I have to redo some things on an oldtimer engine (big block) I put in used oil collected from vehicles that had to undergo same. It is much cheaper and is still perfectly fine for the job.

[CUJO_1970]

3 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

All that oil loss and the R2800 still got him home.

 

I wonder how that will work in the sim...  ?

 

If it's modeled like the BMW/801 which is a slightly smaller radial, any round - even mg rounds, hitting the cowling the engine will seize in about 1 minute,  much quicker in the case of larger rounds. I was hit by an MG round from a AA position online the other day and the engine seized after 90 seconds. This was even with the supposed armored cowling.

 

No doubt even air-cooled radials could be put out of action at times from seemingly "small" amounts of damage - it is after all an engine with a lot of moving parts - but I have read several reports of 801s also making it home with entire cylinder heads blown off. That part isn't programmed in this sim, at least not yet. That engine is no more durable than the water-cooled inline engines and there is no durability benefit from it being an air-cooled radial whatsoever.

 

Maybe the R-2800 to be more durable/realistic.

[Bremspropeller]

Josef Heinzeller flew is 190 back across the Channel with a shot-out cylinder and oil all over the fuselage

[DSR_A-24]

Anyone have any idea when the P-47 will come out?

[CUJO_1970]

4 minutes ago, DSR_T-888 said:

Anyone have any idea when the P-47 will come out?

 

On Sept 14th it was written in DD 203 "New Bodenplatte aircraft, Bf 109 K-4 and P-47D-28, will be released to Early Access later this Autumn"

 

So that was a month ago and we know those are the next two a/c to be released. The P-47 I think was much more complex so no doubt there is more work to release it.

 

What I'm trying to say is: "two weeks, be sure"

[Legioneod]

27 minutes ago, DSR_T-888 said:

Anyone have any idea when the P-47 will come out?

I think it will be this month. I hope it is anyways.

Edited October 16, 2018 by Legioneod

[Lusekofte]

I read somewhere that a projectile had knocked off a cylinder on a P 47, and it still manage to limp home

[Legioneod]

1 minute ago, LuseKofte said:

I read somewhere that a projectile had knocked off a cylinder on a P 47, and it still manage to limp home

I've read that many times. I saw an interview once where some of the pilots and ground crew stated that they saw P-47s come home with multiple cylinders shot out on more than one occasion.

[CountZero]

 

tree trimming will be new hobby for p-47s

 

https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/tree-trimming-army-air-force-style.24161/

 

http://donaldhchaplin.net/wwii.html

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/61221-nice-jugs/?p=470545

[CUJO_1970]

31 minutes ago, LuseKofte said:

I read somewhere that a projectile had knocked off a cylinder on a P 47, and it still manage to limp home

 

Yes, there are many accounts with radial engines like this.

 

So, there may be instances were a radial engine fails with what would seem like very little damage, but also times as shown historically that they could make it back with complete cylinder heads blown off. Personally I think it would be the more common scenario that the engine gets you back home, especially with the R-2800 but maybe I'm just a little biased in favor of radials ?

 

Edited October 16, 2018 by CUJO_1970
spelling

[MiloMorai]

Once the engine runs out of oil, it stops.

[Bremspropeller]

As Milo says, if the engine runs out of oil, it's gonna stop.

In the end, it's all down to luck and chance.

 

We should not forget that those planes which made it back are subjecting us to survivor bias.

For every airplane making it back, a greater amount ouf airplanes didn't.

[Lusekofte]

Milo Morai Radials got a funny way of working, It is not only air that cools it down, fuel does too. P 47, Hellcats and likes flew long distances with heavy oil leak. I am not a expert on this matter . But it is sure a lot of surviving pilots to tell the tales.

I personally think that even if a substantial number of pistons dry out and seas t o work, there are still other cylinders that do work and have oiland manage to propel the aircraft. It is not like a inline engine

Edited October 16, 2018 by LuseKofte

[Ehret]

6 hours ago, CUJO_1970 said:

If it's modeled like the BMW/801 which is a slightly smaller radial, any round - even mg rounds, hitting the cowling the engine will seize in about 1 minute,  much quicker in the case of larger rounds. I was hit by an MG round from a AA position online the other day and the engine seized after 90 seconds. This was even with the supposed armored cowling.

 

That armor was to protect the oil cooler which was in the front. Then you have the exposed fan which is something not used with the R2800. The latter had 4 more cylinders so losing one, or two, wouldn't be dangerous as much.

 

Usually, one would like to put everything after the radial to use it as a shield. Putting the oil cooler, the oil tank, the fan - all of them right ahead the engine... don't know if it was a good decision if the damage resistance was a concern.

Edited October 16, 2018 by Ehret

[MiloMorai]

48 minutes ago, LuseKofte said:

Milo Morai Radials got a funny way of working, It is not only air that cools it down, fuel does too. P 47, Hellcats and likes flew long distances with heavy oil leak. I am not a expert on this matter . But it is sure a lot of surviving pilots to tell the tales.

I personally think that even if a substantial number of pistons dry out and seas t o work, there are still other cylinders that do work and have oiland manage to propel the aircraft. It is not like a inline engine

 

The oil in a radial helps cool the engine.

 

So what happens when a cylinder seizes? Something has to give which usually is a con rod. Lots of little bits of metal in the engine then.

[Legioneod]

2 hours ago, MiloMorai said:

Once the engine runs out of oil, it stops.

Not necessarily, I will agree that it will stop most of the time but I've seen engines run without oil.

 

1 hour ago, Bremspropeller said:

As Milo says, if the engine runs out of oil, it's gonna stop.

In the end, it's all down to luck and chance.

 

We should not forget that those planes which made it back are subjecting us to survivor bias.

For every airplane making it back, a greater amount ouf airplanes didn't.

True we do have to consider survivor bias, but when there are many accounts of it being able to sustain damage we can't really just say it was a rare occurrence. Considering the amount of P-47s lost per sortie is lower than any other American fighter irrc I think there is quite a bit of truth to it's durability.

 

38 minutes ago, MiloMorai said:

 

The oil in a radial helps cool the engine.

 

So what happens when a cylinder seizes? Something has to give which usually is a con rod. Lots of little bits of metal in the engine then.

Doesn't mean the whole engine will seize, also if the engine has already taken damage you can bet there is plenty of metal bits in it already.

 

I'm not saying the R2800 should be some crazy invulnerable engine, but radials were tougher by nature than inline engines and this should be reflected in-game along with all the other radial engines being represented.

Edited October 16, 2018 by Legioneod

[Ehret]

3 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

I'm not saying the R2800 should be some crazy invulnerable engine, but radials were tougher by nature than inline engines and this should be reflected in-game along with all the other radial engines being represented.

 

Radials have much more redundancy - every piston is almost a small distinct engine with its own cooling and valve-train. A twin radial is even better because the 2nd row is partially shielded by the 1st.

[Cpt_Siddy]

1 hour ago, Ehret said:

 

Radials have much more redundancy - every piston is almost a small distinct engine with its own cooling and valve-train. A twin radial is even better because the 2nd row is partially shielded by the 1st.

 

 

Yeah, you can have first row shot to hell, and the second row can bring you home. 

 

Also, time to get familiarized... 

 

 

[Legioneod]

Here's two videos I've never seen before, pretty interesting. Couldn't find part one.

 

Part 2

 

Part 3

 

[Ehret]

1 hour ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

Yeah, you can have first row shot to hell, and the second row can bring you home. 

 

Also, time to get familiarized...

 

Had I heard it right in the video: "not a smart idea to use full power over 5m unless you have Hun on the six" and "11m of continuous water injection"?

[Legioneod]

1 hour ago, Ehret said:

 

Had I heard it right in the video: "not a smart idea to use full power over 5m unless you have Hun on the six" and "11m of continuous water injection"?

This was in 43, time limits for water were increased to 15min on later D blocks due to a larger water tank.. Total power time limits remained the same throughout the war however (5 min WEP, 15 min Military, etc)

The R2800 was more than capable of going over 5min at WEP and the 15min of water allows for it with little risk of failure. The time limits were for preserving the engine for future use, as was the case with most aircraft at the time.

 

Realistically in-game we should be able to do the total 15min of WEP with either a break in between or nonstop.

Edited October 17, 2018 by Legioneod

[Lusekofte]

5 hours ago, MiloMorai said:

The oil in a radial helps cool the engine.

 

You only need oil in enough cylinders to still run the engine. And fuel got a big part in cooling the engine. one of the reasons they are thirsty.

 

[Cpt_Siddy]

4 hours ago, Ehret said:

 

Had I heard it right in the video: "not a smart idea to use full power over 5m unless you have Hun on the six" and "11m of continuous water injection"?

 

 

Why yes, yes you did.

 

The D-28 has a water injection and load of manifold pressure to back it up.

[LukeFF]

I know it doesn't add much, but this is from one of the 1945 manuals for the D model. 30 gallons for the D-25 and above, which increases power about 15%. Consumption of water solution thus works out to about 2 gallons a minute:

 

Edited October 17, 2018 by LukeFF

[EAF19_Marsh]

Quote

You only need oil in enough cylinders to still run the engine. And fuel got a big part in cooling the engine. one of the reasons they are thirsty.

 

Oil is a lubricant, not a coolant - surely if you lose more than a certain % of oil you will have major issues not limited to cooling?

 

I read Thunderbolt!, looking forward to having a go with this.

[Talon_]

Strictly we should expect about 13-14 mins of water thanks to the higher manifold pressures we'll be using. The 150 octane D series ended up using all the water in around 11-12 minutes iirc.

[MiloMorai]

15 hours ago, Legioneod said:

Not necessarily, I will agree that it will stop most of the time but I've seen engines run without oil.

 

Drain the oil from your car and tell me how long the engine lasts.

[Legioneod]

6 hours ago, Talon_ said:

Strictly we should expect about 13-14 mins of water thanks to the higher manifold pressures we'll be using. The 150 octane D series ended up using all the water in around 11-12 minutes iirc.

We really won't notice the difference in all honesty, max power only takes a few seconds off.

We won't be getting 150 octane so we will only be able to pull 64"-65" which should be around 2.1 gallons a minute so it will gives us 14.3 minutes of water at max power.

 

If we ever do get the 70-72" it will pull around 2.5 gallons per minutes which would gives us about 12min of water.

 

Either way, 14min is a very long time considering what we have now with other American aircraft.

 

16 minutes ago, MiloMorai said:

Drain the oil from your car and tell me how long the engine lasts.

Never said it would last long but it will run for a time.

Edited October 17, 2018 by Legioneod

[PainGod85]

On 10/16/2018 at 3:25 PM, Georgio said:

That must have happened on the ground, he would have never seen out of the canopy to get that crate down.

 

And why, pray tell, didn't the oil simply run down to the belly, instead somehow flowing against gravity up the windshield and over the whole canopy?

 

Plus, this would hardly have been the first time a plane landed in zero visibility conditions. Getting talked down towards the airfield by a wingmate is a thing.

[ZachariasX]

11 minutes ago, PainGod85 said:

Plus, this would hardly have been the first time a plane landed in zero visibility conditions. 

It would surely not be the first time. But you can see in the aft section of the hood that the oil gives not much darker of a tint than maybe a ND32 grey filter. The weather is great and bright. He certainly could see the horizon. But not taking any bets on how much he saw of the airfield.