On the topic of Thunderbolts

[DressedWings]

Specifically for the 1945 scenario, I'd love to see some info on the Thunderbolt(s) that will be featured in Battle of Bodenplatte. 

 

I know in the announcement thread the discussion of razorbacks occurred, with the question of whether they were still in use (especially during Bodenplatte). The 366th Fighter Group in fact had many razorbacks still in January 1945. Bob Brulle shot down an FW 190 with one during Bodenplatte. 

 

 

Above is a P-47D "Magic Carpet" of the 366th.

 

Just found this interesting, as the Jug is probably my favourite aircraft of the war. 

[Gambit21]

What info do you want exactly?

You'll be looking at IX TAC units obviously, meaning 365th, 366th among others.

Mostly D models but yes some razorbacks still in use, but not in the sim.

[Ghost666]

Info? The only thing I know about the P-47 is I WANT ONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Enough said.  

[DressedWings]

What info do you want exactly?

You'll be looking at IX TAC units obviously, meaning 365th, 366th among others.

Mostly D models but yes some razorbacks still in use, but not in the sim.

 

the first half of D model blocks were still razorback, so I'd imagine that they are mostly D models

 

I'm interested in unit composition, and how each unit received each P-47 model.

[Gambit21]

the first half of D model blocks were still razorback, so I'd imagine that they are mostly D models

 

I'm interested in unit composition, and how each unit received each P-47 model.

 

You know what I mean smarty pants.

How each unit received each P-47 model was that it was normally flown in by a nice female...but not always.

[Gambit21]

9th TAC Jug units

 

50th

365th

404th

405th

48th

371st

366th (at Y-29 with the 352nd Mustangs)

368th

358th

362nd

36th

373rd

406th

[Jade_Monkey]

Just got my "P47 Thunderbolt at war" book from amazon today

[Gambit21]

Make sure you pick up "Hell Hawks"

https://www.amazon.com/Untold-American-Savaged-Hitlers-Wehrmacht/dp/0760338256

 

Also make your way through this...404th FG History

 

Leap Off_404thFG.zip

[ShamrockOneFive]

Do we have a good idea of how many of what models were in those 9th AF units. I can't imagine very many earlier razorback models kicking around by that point.

 

My limited amounts of research suggest that probably the P-47D-30 would be the most likely sub model they model. I'm a little less clear on how many of those have the added fillet on the rudder and how many didn't. Also I'm curious to know if the standard rocket loadout at this point were the bazooka tubes or zero length HVARs.

 

Either way I know I'm going to have fun flying the Jug again. There is not a plane that I'm not excited about in this release

[Gambit21]

Do we have a good idea of how many of what models were in those 9th AF units. I can't imagine very many earlier razorback models kicking around by that point.

 

My limited amounts of research suggest that probably the P-47D-30 would be the most likely sub model they model. I'm a little less clear on how many of those have the added fillet on the rudder and how many didn't. Also I'm curious to know if the standard rocket loadout at this point were the bazooka tubes or zero length HVARs.

 

Either way I know I'm going to have fun flying the Jug again. There is not a plane that I'm not excited about in this release

 

Most groups had at least a few kicking around.

 

Here's a few photos I've acquired recently from the 352nd Assoc and 365th.

The one with the airborne razorback in the background is from the 365th (Hellhawks)

The other from Sam over at the 352nd Assoc, and is the 366th area at Y-29.

[Gambit21]

Also I'm curious to know if the standard rocket loadout at this point were the bazooka tubes or zero length HVARs.

 

The 404th history that I attached has some fairly detailed info on load-outs and such, but I haven't had a chance to sit down and really go through the whole thing yet.

[Legioneod]

Razerbacks were still in use but not on a large scale from what I know. We wont be getting one in Bodenplatte, it will be a bubble-top so it could be anyone from the D-25 to the D-40. My bet (and hope) is on the D-30.

[DressedWings]

Razerbacks were still in use but not on a large scale from what I know. We wont be getting one in Bodenplatte, it will be a bubble-top so it could be anyone from the D-25 to the D-40. My bet (and hope) is on the D-30.

 

not that I expected anything else, but how do we know which sub model (bubble vs razorback) we will be getting?

Edited December 6, 2017 by DressedWings

[ShamrockOneFive]

not that I expected anything else, but how do we know which sub model (bubble vs razorback) we will be getting?

 

If its anything to go by... the alternate concept art with the Me262 shows a bare metal P-47D with bubbletop in the bottom left corner. Its hard to make out but the cut down fuselage is apparent to me.

 

It's also about picking the most likely and time period appropriate version and that's definitely a D-25 or later. Probably more likely to be a D-28 or D-30. It also means that they can save up a razorback if they were ever to do something like Normandy or New Guinea where an earlier variant would be a useful and unique addition.

 

More generally on the P-47 I am excited about some of the skins that will be official and then unofficial follow ons. The 9th AF P-47s were a colourful bunch!

[Dennis_Nedry]

I believe Jason said it was going to be a bubble top in the Q&A. Didn't know what sub variant yet.

[DressedWings]

If its anything to go by... the alternate concept art with the Me262 shows a bare metal P-47D with bubbletop in the bottom left corner. Its hard to make out but the cut down fuselage is apparent to me.

 

It's also about picking the most likely and time period appropriate version and that's definitely a D-25 or later. Probably more likely to be a D-28 or D-30. It also means that they can save up a razorback if they were ever to do something like Normandy or New Guinea where an earlier variant would be a useful and unique addition.

 

More generally on the P-47 I am excited about some of the skins that will be official and then unofficial follow ons. The 9th AF P-47s were a colourful bunch!

 

I see what you mean, but Jason said they were not official art pieces.

 

I share your expectations though, and its still gonna be my primary aircraft.

[Sharpe43]

Razerbacks were still in use but not on a large scale from what I know. We wont be getting one in Bodenplatte, it will be a bubble-top so it could be anyone from the D-25 to the D-40. My bet (and hope) is on the D-30.

 

Weren't Razerbacks commanders machines by then? I know there are also some razerbacks visible on the italian front documentary amongst the other YouTube vids out there..

[CIA_Yankee_]

Is there any advantage to the razerbacks, aside from purdyness?

[VeryOldMan]

Is there any advantage to the razerbacks, aside from purdyness?

Theorethically less drag..  but given the side of the jug, the relative drag of the canopy was not really  very relevant (if compared for example with the drag of the canopy in a 109)

[Rebel_Scum]

Very much looking forward to the P-47!  This one is on display at Hill AFB just down the road from where I live...

 

[ShamrockOneFive]

Theorethically less drag..  but given the side of the jug, the relative drag of the canopy was not really  very relevant (if compared for example with the drag of the canopy in a 109)

 

And its not by much... 2mph reduction in top speed on a fighter that already has a significant speed advantage.

 

There are other changes to the aircraft that are particularly interesting too. The paddle blade propellers increased climb by a fair margin (I couldn't find the values quickly) and it seems like they kept tweaking the R-2800 to do some pretty impressive stuff. I have to say that from reputation the P-47 is an extremely interesting aircraft and one that really embodies the word "tough." I mean its huge, heavy, completely over-engineered and powered by an immensely powerful radial engine... it eschews all of the things that an aircraft like the Bf109 or Spitfire hold as being important in a fighter. You can't fly it like either of those either.

 

I am looking forward to doing some air support missions in this. It's going to be fun!

[Tomsk]

it eschews all of the things that an aircraft like the Bf109 or Spitfire hold as being important in a fighter. You can't fly it like either of those either.

Yes and I find it fascinating that as the war went on the American style of building fighters: heavy, fast, good dive, handles well at speed and long legs, was in many ways proven the right one. To my mind, more than anything this was because of the ability of American fighters (and other good divers like the 190) to disengage at will providing they had altitude. If a P-47 doesn’t like a fight it can just dive away, and a 109 would be foolish to try and follow. A P-47 handles like a dream at 400+ mph .. a 109 does not. If a P-47 has altitude it can turn the engagement into a high speed handling contest whenever it likes. The reverse is definitely not true, trying to out dive a P-47 in a 109 would typically end badly for the 109.

 

I am looking forward to doing some air support missions in this. It's going to be fun!

+100

[VeryOldMan]

And its not by much... 2mph reduction in top speed on a fighter that already has a significant speed advantage.

 

There are other changes to the aircraft that are particularly interesting too. The paddle blade propellers increased climb by a fair margin (I couldn't find the values quickly) and it seems like they kept tweaking the R-2800 to do some pretty impressive stuff. I have to say that from reputation the P-47 is an extremely interesting aircraft and one that really embodies the word "tough." I mean its huge, heavy, completely over-engineered and powered by an immensely powerful radial engine... it eschews all of the things that an aircraft like the Bf109 or Spitfire hold as being important in a fighter. You can't fly it like either of those either.

 

I am looking forward to doing some air support missions in this. It's going to be fun!

 

In compensation it is so huge that   you must be almost blind to not see it at horizon

[ShamrockOneFive]

In compensation it is so huge that   you must be almost blind to not see it at horizon

 

Oh for sure. The P-47 is huge. If you ever get a chance go and stand next to one and then go and stand next to a Bf109, a Spitfire or a FW190. I was surprised at how tiny each of those three were and then you stand next to the P-47 and even the P-40 and realize that those were bigger aircraft. The 47 especially.

 

What folks will probably find disappointing again is that the P-47 is not a dogfighter. It's strength is high altitude fights and low altitude mud moving but if you want to get into a pitched dogfight zooming around in circles its not the best at that. Also, while its dive is tremendous and I fully expect to see that in IL-2, it doesn't work like a get out of jail free card when a Bf109 is already in position on your six.

 

Gotta fly the P-47 smart and use its strengths (of which it has many) versus the other guys weaknesses.

 

Also having a bank of eight M2 .50cal's is nice!

[Tomsk]

What folks will probably find disappointing again is that the P-47 is not a dogfighter. It's strength is high altitude fights and low altitude mud moving but if you want to get into a pitched dogfight zooming around in circles its not the best at that. Also, while its dive is tremendous and I fully expect to see that in IL-2, it doesn't work like a get out of jail free card when a Bf109 is already in position on your six.

 

Absolutely agree, the P-47 (much like the 190 actually) has to be flown a certain way to be successful, and turn fighting really is not its forte. The dive is definitely not a get of jail free card, you can always get shot down ... but I've had good luck spiral diving in planes that handle well at high speeds against planes that don't. For example the P-51 vs the 109, or the 190 vs the Spitfire in DCS. If they follow you into a spiral dive (i.e. a diving barrel roll) they had better shoot you down quick because they are quickly going to be locked up hard. Meanwhile you can still manoeuvre in a high speed barrel roll, so they'll slip out in front and you will typically get a rear quarter snapshot. Even if you miss that shot you can then zoom out of it and be at a big energy advantage over them, since light planes don't zoom well, especially as they'll have trouble pulling up from the dive. You can then boom and zoom them with impunity, or just leave if the area is still hot. You need a fair bit of altitude to make it work well (several km), but it really is a big mistake for them to try and follow you in such a dive. It's even more effective if you are flying with a mate who can stay up high while you suck them down.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Tomsk

[VeryOldMan]

Absolutely agree, the P-47 (much like the 190 actually) has to be flown a certain way to be successful, and turn fighting really is not its forte. The dive is definitely not a get of jail free card, you can always get shot down ... but I've had good luck spiral diving in planes that handle well at high speeds against planes that don't. For example the P-51 vs the 109, or the 190 vs the Spitfire in DCS. If they follow you into a spiral dive they had better shoot you down quick because they are quickly going to be locked up hard. Meanwhile you can still manoeuvre in a high speed barrel roll, so they'll slip out in front and you will typically get a rear quarter snapshot. Even if you miss that shot you can then zoom out of it and be at a big energy advantage over them, since light planes don't zoom well, especially as they'll have trouble pulling up from the dive. You can then boom and zoom them with impunity, or just leave if the area is still hot. You need a fair bit of altitude to make it work well (several km), but it really is a big mistake for them to try and follow you in such a dive. It's even more effective if you are flying with a mate who can stay up high while you suck them down.

 

In theory  turning more than 90 degrees in air combat is not a safe combat tactic.  The  increased chance of  making a kill  is just a bit higher but the increase on your chance of death is huge.

[Gambit21]

Oh for sure. The P-47 is huge. If you ever get a chance go and stand next to one and then go and stand next to a Bf109, a Spitfire or a FW190. I was surprised at how tiny each of those three were and then you stand next to the P-47 and even the P-40 and realize that those were bigger aircraft. The 47 especially.

 

What folks will probably find disappointing again is that the P-47 is not a dogfighter. It's strength is high altitude fights and low altitude mud moving but if you want to get into a pitched dogfight zooming around in circles its not the best at that. Also, while its dive is tremendous and I fully expect to see that in IL-2, it doesn't work like a get out of jail free card when a Bf109 is already in position on your six.

 

Gotta fly the P-47 smart and use its strengths (of which it has many) versus the other guys weaknesses.

 

Also having a bank of eight M2 .50cal's is nice!

And yet it dealt with 109's at tree-top level quite often and the result was a dead 109 a fair amount of the time.

P-47's were lost, don't get me wrong, but while it was a dream at altitude it was not a dunce on the deck despite its size.

It was the perfect fighter bomber.

 

In one instance against 190's it took several experienced German pilots (including Willie Hiellman) to finally force a Jug pilot down as he turned and banked with his wings hitting the tree tops. He was captured and brought back to base, where he answered a few questions (or at least spoke for some reason) and a few German pilots looked at each other quizzically at his odd dialect...then another looked at them and said "Texas"

 

It was the Jug that German pilots feared most at altitude (again according to Heilmann) and their abiliti to slash through their formation with 8 .50's each and be gone. (Second they feared the British pilots flying anything because of their "bulldogish" tenacity)

 

The 9th Airforce also used Mustangs which were a bit more agile on the deck sans bombs, (thus even better equipped to deal with the odd German fighter down low) but couldn't carry the ordinance load of the jug and were more vulnerable.

 

For mud-moving in the weeds the Jug wins - even the 4 cannons of the Tempest cannot compete with the 8 .50's on the Jug for sheer destructive volume and energy of rounds on target. Not to mention those sexy 9th Airforce paint schemes like I said before.

 

I'm very much looking forward to this aircraft, and to building a campaign for it.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Gambit21

[Jade_Monkey]

I fired up the old 1946 which i got on a steam sale but never really played just si incould hop on the P47 yesterday.

 

I overcame a few initial barriers with the screen resolution, mouse lag and axis mapping.

 

Any good recommendations for P47 missions or campaigns?

 

Also, any visual mods to make it look a bit less dated?

[Gambit21]

My old Liberation Skies 9th Air Force campaign was the definitive experience Monkey - see if you can find it. I think the sites I had it up on went defunct years ago. Unfortunately I cleaned it off my hard drives years ago as well.

[Jade_Monkey]

I'll try looking in M4T when i get home.

[Gambit21]

I doubt it's there unless someone else uploaded it. I can't remember what the 'go to' site was back then, but it wasn't M4T.

 

I had a bitchin skin pack that I included too.

[HBPencil]

I fired up the old 1946 which i got on a steam sale but never really played just si incould hop on the P47 yesterday.

 

I overcame a few initial barriers with the screen resolution, mouse lag and axis mapping.

 

Any good recommendations for P47 missions or campaigns?

 

Also, any visual mods to make it look a bit less dated?

If you're after campaigns try Storm Clouds 2.0 by the artist formerly known as Icefire (he goes by a different name here, I forget which) which has three campaigns, one each for the P-47, Tempest and D-9. I don't know how it'll play considering the changes made to the a.i. since it was released but it's definitely one of the most popular campaigns for ol' 1946.

[Jade_Monkey]

I doubt it's there unless someone else uploaded it. I can't remember what the 'go to' site was back then, but it wasn't M4T.

I had a bitchin skin pack that I included too.

I found it in M4T. Link

 

If you're after campaigns try Storm Clouds 2.0 by the artist formerly known as Icefire (he goes by a different name here, I forget which) which has three campaigns, one each for the P-47, Tempest and D-9. I don't know how it'll play considering the changes made to the a.i. since it was released but it's definitely one of the most popular campaigns for ol' 1946.

 

Thanks! I'll check that out too!

[Gambit21]

Monkey - nice!

I built that before any of the post-Oleg patches, so not sure if everything will still work as it originally did...although it should.

[Gambit21]

Wow - my campaign was 4 years old by the time someone uploaded it to M4T in 06. Time flies.

[Rjel]

I've seen P-47s at airshows several times but I'd never been able to get this close to one before. This one is at the Kalamazoo Air Zoo museum taken earlier this year. I knew they were big, but in person they appear absolutely huge. If you're ever near Kalamazoo, MI don't pass up the chance to check out this flying museum. I'm going to post some more pics in the Free Subject forum. I think you'll be surprised what is there.

 

Edited December 7, 2017 by Rjel

[Jade_Monkey]

Wow - my campaign was 4 years old by the time someone uploaded it to M4T in 06. Time flies.

 

I flew the first two missions already. I'm really enjoying them! 

 

I've seen P-47s at airshows several times but I'd never been able to get this close to one before. This one is at the Kalamazoo Air Zoo museum taken earlier this year. I knew they were big, but in person they appear absolutely huge. If you're ever near Kalamazoo, MI don't pass up the chance to check out this flying museum. I'm going to post some more pics in the Free Subject forum. I think you'll be surprised what is there.

 

 

 

I have a friend studying in Ann Arbor and planned on going to visit her at some point. Maybe this is a good stop

[Rjel]

I have a friend studying in Ann Arbor and planned on going to visit her at some point. Maybe this is a good stop

 

It would only be about an hour or less drive from Ann Arbor. You won't be disappointed.

[ShamrockOneFive]

If you're after campaigns try Storm Clouds 2.0 by the artist formerly known as Icefire (he goes by a different name here, I forget which) which has three campaigns, one each for the P-47, Tempest and D-9. I don't know how it'll play considering the changes made to the a.i. since it was released but it's definitely one of the most popular campaigns for ol' 1946.

 

Hi HB, that's me

 

Storm Clouds was a labour of love for me and while its Tempest and Dora centric I decided to do a quick 9th AF campaign with the P-47 and all of the research that I had on me at the time.

 

I used the hottest of hot rodded P-47s in the series at the time so if you're looking to fly the ultimate P-47 of IL-2: 1946... my short little campaign is one way to do it.

[Gambit21]

Nice Shamy.

Looking forward to you joining our (small but growing) ranks with the current editor.