What if... Heinkel He-219

[Rjel]

I love the "what ifs" of history. On the General Discussion board there have been a couple of threads suggesting more and different planes for the upcoming BoBo (not a fan of that nick). A couple of suggestions have been for the Me-410 and the Mosquito. Both are favorites of mine. The Mosquito by far is the more favored by me but there is something about the shape of the Me-410 I really like. 

 

A couple of posters there have suggested the 410 as the German equivalent to the Mosquito at least in regards to balancing the sim plane set. In reality, I don't think many truly found the Me-410 as nearly as good a combat A/C. But it did get me to thinking about the He-219 as a plane the Luftwaffe could've used similarly as a multi purpose fighter. Considering the multitude of designs, experimental aircraft and prototypes that turned out to be of little value to the German war effort after 1940, why did they ignore the He-219?

 

First flight for the He-219 was in November, 1942. Top speed was over 400 mph. It was long ranged with the ability to fight at high altitude. And for a large airplane, it was very maneuverable. Given that, beyond the political infighting, cronyism and general ineptness of the German High Command, why was the very plane that might have saved Germany from strategic bombing ignored? I would've halted production on the Bf-110, Me210-410 series and all of the overlapping bombers designs that never contributed to the German war effort in a meaningful way. The man hours put into experimental A/C like the Ta-154 that ultimately failed, only drained resources from existing designs should've been halted. All of this would have freed up manpower, factory floor space and materials to ramp up the production of a world class heavy fighter the He-219.

 

The Germans kept looking for a heavy bomber destroyer and a night fighter to blunt the Allied bombers both day and night. Luckily, they didn't appear to understand it was already in their inventory. Or could've been by sometime in 1943 had production not been halted multiple times by ineptness. Would the He-219 have been able to tear up USAAF bomber streams to a degree that the U.S. would've had to suspend its campaign in late 43 before the arrival of the P-51s? Could it have wreaked enough havoc on the RAF at night to slow or even eliminate that threat to the German cities?

 

It's interesting to ponder. At least to me. I'd like to hear others' opinions. Maybe I'm reading this completely wrong. Would standardizing on a plane like the He-219 have been beneficial to the German war effort?     

[MiloMorai]

Top speed of the He219 was under 400mph. The over 400mph speed was achieved with a modified a/c that would have been useless as a night fighter.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

No matter which aircraft was available, Germany could never play the numbers game. One He-219 is still dead meat against fifty P-51s with an altitude advantage, and introducing a completely new aircraft type causes delays, production and training disruptions, and a whole range of teething problems.

 

The idea that minor performance differences between aircraft, tanks or ships could have somehow changed the course of such a lopsided war one way or another is pure fantasy.

[Rjel]

I did speculate the time frame as being prior to the introduction of the P-51. Too many people have bought into the idea there were always a thousand P-51s everywhere you looked. They weren't that numerous from December 43 when they first flew in combat until summer of 1944. Even then, it's a misconception they carpeted the entire combat area. They were scattered all along the bomber streams they escorted.

 

Still, I think the He-219 would've been a plane to reckon with had it been available in numbers in mid 43.

[MiloMorai]

The first Mustang combat mission was undertaken by Flying Officer G. N. Dawson of No. 26 Squadron on May 10, 1942, strafing hangars in France and shooting up a train.

[Retnek]

Except some early studies for other roles like fast bomber etc the He-219 was a night-fighter designed for the western strategic air war. Not that much to do for this type of plane with the current, purely tactical setup of IL2-BoBp. No 4-mot-bombers, no AI-multicrew-functionality in the planes, no airborne radar, no professional airfield equipment. I don't think this is limited because of the sim-engine itself. Looking at the available resources within the developers team this much more seems to be a wise self-restriction. Unlike DCS the IL2-series never had the option to go into the very details to sell single planes as a study sim. Not much reason to discuss components of strategic air war in the context of IL2-BoX.

 

Like most of the German in-war-design the early versions of the He-219 had performance problems because of the available engines being to weak. The DB-605 and Jumo-213 were years to late and produced in 1944 still had a lot of production problems to iron out. Looking at the number produced the He-217 was very rare bird. No need to care for if you first have to build up the main components for the realistic simulation of the western strategic (night) air war.

[Rjel]

The first Mustang combat mission was undertaken by Flying Officer G. N. Dawson of No. 26 Squadron on May 10, 1942, strafing hangars in France and shooting up a train.

I understand that. I think it's fairly obvious I was writing about the arrival of the P-51B in December of 1943 as a long range escort, not the early A model.

[Rjel]

 Not much reason to discuss components of strategic air war in the context of IL2-BoX.

 

Maybe I wasn't clear enough in what I wrote. I wasn't advocating for the He-219 to be brought into this sim, even though I do think it would be a truly elegant A/C to fly in a sim like this. I was mentioning how in contrast to the Me-410, it was much better in comparison to the Mosquito. I was also speaking about how it might have affected* the outcome of the air war in WWII.

 

One thing I think gets continually ignored by studies of the American aircraft output in WWII, is the vast majority of "right" choices that were made in 1940-41 in preparing for the war that the USAAF was going to be in. While the prewar fighters like the P-39 and P-40 were not world class when it came to fighter to fighter combat, those designed and test flown just prior to America's involvement in WWII were.  The same can be said for the designs chosen for the bomber roles. It took time to build up the numbers needed to get started but when those planes started to arrive, the bugs needing to be worked out were rather minor in most cases. There were mistakes made, some planes still made it into production that never really turned out to be effective. But those were the exception and America's production capacity and distance from enemy attack allowed for those experiments and even failures.

 

Germany's position was obviously more perilous. That is reason I wondered why, if production capacity, manpower and resources were more limited, did Germany not concentrate on those areas by eliminating all of the overlapping programs and focus on those with the most promise. In the case of the He-219, you mentioned the problem with the engines. Engine problems were experienced with the B-29 too but resources were focused on the problem until the issue was resolved. Why? Because it was deemed to be of the highest priority and wasn't allowed to be sidelined by other programs or paper designs. 

 

Germany had many, many interesting designs and airframes. Maybe too many. For history buffs like us, it's great. For the Luftwaffe and the German nation, maybe it wasn't the best course of action in hindsight.

 

*spelling             

Edited November 26, 2017 by Rjel

[Rjel]

try to pass it for the luftwaffe with a dmonstration with free buffet

As is usually the case, you raaaid, see right to the heart of the issue and absolutely nail the needed response.

[Jaws2002]

The resources wasted on the heavy twin engine fighters and specially the high performance/high alt DB engines wasted on them, is one of the reasons the Germans didn't have a plane to counter the Mustang effectively, in that critical late 1943-mid 1944 time frame.  

 

   Remember the FW-190 C, with DB-603 engine was in testing in 1942.  The conversion was straight forward, with little modifications needed to the air frame or engine. The high command wanted the 603 for the heavy fighters, so it refused to give Foke Wulf the DB-603 engines and told them to install the jumo 213 in the 190.

The problem was that in order to install the Jumo, both the engine and the air frame needed extensive modifications. That's why the D-9 didn't show up until late 1944.

      If it wasn't for the stupid heavy fighters, the Germans could have switched to a DB-603 powered, long nose FW-190 in 1943, before the P-51 showed up.

 

The He-219 is nothing special. The engines gave it good performance, but not good enough to compete with the single engine planes. However, for every single He-219 or Me-410, you could have two long nose Foke Wulfs, that would have had a much more noticeable impact in the war effort. They built 1100 Me410s and those were operational in mid 43. They could have built 2200 long nosed Foke Wulfs with those engines.

Edited November 26, 2017 by Jaws2002

[Finkeren]

The He 219 is a typical example of the German problem of constantly trying to press new advanced designs into combat in the middle of a war, which led to Germany falling even further behind the productivity race.

 

A He 219 took a whooping 30,000 (thirty thousand) man hours to construct in 1942, almost 10 times as much as it took to make a Bf 109 (don’t have numbers for the Bf 110). The Uhu was in pre-production at that time, which of course added to production time, but even considering a best-case-scenario, production numbers would have remained low and cost high for a long time, if the RLM had halted production of the Bf 110 in favor of the (at the time still unfinished) He 219 design in 1940.

 

It really doesn’t matter how good the He 219 was. Reducing production of materiel by 90% during a war is never worth it.

[Rjel]

All good points and I appreciate the discussion.

 

I don't think the Luftwaffe, no matter the airplane, was ever in a position to turn back a 1000 bomber raid. Their only hope would've been to hold on long enough to attrite (I've waited since the first Gulf war to use that word in a sentence ) the force over a finite period of time. In my mind, 1943 was the only year that could've even been possible given the technology of the day. By mid 1944, America's full might was coming to peak so the time to stop its bombing campaign was past. The He-219, given the prowess it exhibited against the RAF night bombers, is why I thought of it as a possible dual purpose Day/Night fighter.  

[Retnek]

... the He-219 ... in contrast to the Me-410, it was much better in comparison to the Mosquito.

Hm, depends on, the Me-410 was fast at least. There are reports by Mosquito-nightfighter pilots the Me-410 was able to outrun them in a shallow dive. The Me-410 still wasn't a pilots dream and much too light bomber, but some qualities she had. Compared to the standard planes a rare bird, too.

 

... That is reason I wondered why, if production capacity, manpower and resources were more limited, did Germany not concentrate on those areas by eliminating all of the overlapping programs and focus on those with the most promise. In the case of the He-219, you mentioned the problem with the engines. Engine problems were experienced with the B-29 too but resources were focused on the problem until the issue was resolved. Why? Because it was deemed to be of the highest priority and wasn't allowed to be sidelined by other programs or paper designs.]

The detailed answer to that statement would fill several books and still one won't find a final conclusion the authors would agree about. Imho the main factors were the same like those in a classical drama:

profit motives, races for influence and power, craving for recognition, envy, concurrence, distrust, egoism etc. A lack of proper configured processes to discuss and decide development and production (at least often) by reason. Germany was a bloody dictatorship putting a lot of limited people into important positions. Not the best starting point to win a long war where economy and technology were decisive.

[Rjel]

Hm, depends on, the Me-410 was fast at least. There are reports by Mosquito-nightfighter pilots the Me-410 was able to outrun them in a shallow dive. The Me-410 still wasn't a pilots dream and much too light bomber, but some qualities she had. Compared to the standard planes a rare bird, too.

 

 

The detailed answer to that statement would fill several books and still one won't find a final conclusion the authors would agree about. Imho the main factors were the same like those in a classical drama:

profit motives, races for influence and power, craving for recognition, envy, concurrence, distrust, egoism etc. A lack of proper configured processes to discuss and decide development and production (at least often) by reason. Germany was a bloody dictatorship putting a lot of limited people into important positions. Not the best starting point to win a long war where economy and technology were decisive.

Good and valid points. Thank you for your comments. Your last comment about limited people in important positions has eerie parallels with today. IMHO.

[Cybermat47]

The He-219 would have been pointless against USAAF formations. They were needed to fight the RAF, RAAF, RNZAF, RCAF etc. night bomber formations, and, as purpose-built nightfighters, that's what they were designed to do.

[Rjel]

The He-219 would have been pointless against USAAF formations. They were needed to fight the RAF, RAAF, RNZAF, RCAF etc. night bomber formations, and, as purpose-built nightfighters, that's what they were designed to do.

Did you read any of what I wrote or just skim? I think most of us realize what the He-219 was designed for. My thought was it could be utilized as a day fighter also before the fighter escorts were introduced. I also wrote that other aircraft that weren't as good performance wise be discontinued to standardize their fighter forces. I think the U.S. did that as well and probably better than any other combatant in WWII. It helped in production capacity, supply and in the training of aircrews.