Landing without spinning out

[Gunner39]

Which plane is this in? Some planes, like the 190, have very little rudder authority and rely very heavily on differential braking for taxi and landing.

Well, its the Lagg-3. In the meantime i made some digging, found out that no tail wheel locking in this. I can keep it straight (mostly) on landing, but when its almost stopped and i'm about to breath again, it just spins. Always to the left. At that speed i dont think there is any rudder authority and the right brake doesn't seems to do anything. I might check the controls again, but that's why i was asking if there is any way to display the controls on the screen, so to see how do they work. I'm gonna try other planes too (i just picked up BoS at the christmas sale) .

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Have you ever done that thing where you put some Silver Plates or something similar under the Rear Wheels of your FWD Car, or done that silly Handbrake "Drift" in Winter?

Now Imagine you are doing that, but trying to drive straight. It's really difficult. You have to catch the movement before it appears, and react exactly so that you don't induce Oscillation. 

 

Pilot Induced Oscillation is caused by Overcompensating against a movement, thus creating a pendulum effect that requires a calm hand to stop. Remaining Calm, and keeping Control Inputs precise and letting the Airframe react to your movements is important. 

This isn't a Ground Loop, but most likely what most beginners do and their Overreactions. 

 

This is Pilot induced Oscillation on the elevator

 

 

Or use it to your Advantage:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HT_9O45TFtQ

 

Edited January 3, 2018 by 6./ZG26_Klaus-Mann

[busdriver]

Sure throttle helps with keeping the nose straight on the roll out but is not a necessity. If anything it just increases the amount of time it takes to come to a stop. You SHOULD be able to land with 0% throttle and use a Healthy dose of rudder / brake to keep straight and not spin out.

 

[in response to WWGriphos's advice to use stick/aileron INTO the wind]

 

Thats not correct If you are referring to the secondary effect of roll = yaw effect to counter cross wind. If the wind is coming from the left you would want to push the stick right which lowers the left aileron increasing drag on that wing.   This effect at low speeds is negligible though especially on fighters with small ailerons so much better off just using the rudder    

 

I was taught like WWGriphos. I fly like him too. The flight manual for the AT-6 Texan (SNJ or Harvard if you prefer) even says when taxiing to use stick INTO the wind to keep the wings level. Current flight training manuals advise pilots to apply aileron INTO a crosswind.

 

Did your flight school teach stick/aileron into the wind during approach and then reverse that and use stick/aileron away after touchdown?

[No601_Swallow]

Honestly/Seriously/Definitely:.... keep some throttle going as the wheels touch down. The increase in control makes a massive difference for most aircraft. 

 

Stick all the way back... Throttle at 10-15%... Works every time! (Usually... )

Edited January 3, 2018 by No601_Swallow

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

I cut throttle as soon as my wheels are about to touch the Ground. After that Brakes and Rudder are more than sufficient to maintain heading. 

 

Honestly people, what angles are you landing at? Unless you have a good amount of Crosswind you don't need the engine at all. 

 

Often enough the Ground Loop starts with an unnecessarily Hard or Bouncy Landing, with too much Speed carried through. In a proper 3 Point Landing, which all ingame Aircraft are built for, Ground Loops happen only very rarely, and the tendency to do so is very small, because you are already pulling back on the Stick, putting some weight on the tail. 

[Guest deleted@134347]

Honestly/Seriously/Definitely:.... keep some throttle going as the wheels touch down. The increase in control makes a massive difference for most aircraft. 

 

Stick all the way back... Throttle at 10-15%... Works every time! (Usually... )

 

as in 60% of the time it works 100% of the time? :D

[Tomsk]

I cut throttle as soon as my wheels are about to touch the Ground. After that Brakes and Rudder are more than sufficient to maintain heading. 

 

I usually do the same: hold a little throttle in the flare and then cut it as I'm about to touch. Having a little throttle in the flare tends to make the landing a little gentler as the plane will naturally have a lower descent rate. Smoother landings providing you're happy to use up more runway. Definitely don't find throttle needed to prevent a ground loop though.

 

Agree with Klaus-Mann's assessment entirely. Most ground loops I see online are from people landing too fast, and trying to fly the plane onto the ground rather than letting the plane settle onto the ground itself. It's really common, even amongst good (virtual) pilots. However, if you control airspeed in the descent and then flare into a three point attitude, then most of these problems go away. 

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Well, if you keep Ground Looping, something is going wrong beforehand or you have Brakes not assigned properly. 

 

Unless you are in an Aircraft with a Ground Angle higher than Stall Angle, like a Bücker Jungmann, or there are heavy Crosswinds, there simply is no excuse for Wheel Landings. 

 

IRL pretty much all my Landings are Tailwheel Landings, which take this a bit further even, but I feel a lot safer Landing without excess Energy. 

[busdriver]

Well, if you keep Ground Looping, something is going wrong beforehand or you have Brakes not assigned properly. 

 

Unless you are in an Aircraft with a Ground Angle higher than Stall Angle, like a Bücker Jungmann, or there are heavy Crosswinds, there simply is no excuse for Wheel Landings. 

 

IRL pretty much all my Landings are Tailwheel Landings, which take this a bit further even, but I feel a lot safer Landing without excess Energy. 

 

To suggest there is "no excuse" for making wheel landings (as if you've mucked up your approach) is without merit IMO.  The vast majority of my RL landings are power off from the abeam position (downwind abeam the threshold) to a wheel landing...in the touchdown zone. It simply take lots of practice.

 

If however your intent is to encourage 1G Comfy Chair Fighter Pilots to perfect, on speed, three point touchdown landings first...I agree completely.    The runways in BoX are pretty short and unforgiving of excess speed crossing the threshold.

[56RAF_Roblex]

I am not a good pilot but I rarely have any problem with looping on landing.  Perhaps it is because I usually fly VVS aircraft and I find that the brakes being linked to the rudder makes it very easy to control.   I also treat every landing the same as driving on ice ie do not attempt to make any sort of turn until you are very slow and if you really have to make an adjustment make the smallest turn you can get away with. Unlike driving on ice, I do apply full brakes as soon as I touch down so I can get down to a safe speed quickly.  It is not an issue because they will be applied equally if I am not using the rudder.  The only time you will see me loop is when I am forced to turn while still too fast such as when someone has stopped/crashed ahead or is landing the wrong way.

 

TL:DR Version:-  There is no reason to groundloop if you are going in a straight line and presumably you have just landed in a straight line.  Just avoid turning more than a few degrees until you are at jogging pace.

[WWGriphos]

Some of you guys giving advice clearly have no real training or experience. As someone with both, including quite a bit of taildragger experience with a tailwheel aircraft I own, I can tell you there’s some bad advice in this thread (and a lot of good advice too).  

Ground loops (a “spin” only happens when airborne) are almost the natural condition of tailwheel aircraft at low momentum. The geometry of a small ground contact far back behind the CG and two points ahead of but closer to CG means the plane WANTS to swap ends if possible. Keeping momentum absolutely straight is the only prevention. It’s not about control authority. Once the swing has started it doesn’t take much lateral momentum to quickly outstrip all control authority. Trust me. This is why tricycle (or conventional) gear were invented even though they are less favorable on unimproved runways.

_Stick and Rudder_ is still the best book written about aerodynamics for prop aircraft. _The Compleat Taildragger Pilot_ is number 2 for our kind of aircraft in particular. Read them if you want to better understand what is happening in all flight regimes.

As to the specific points that need correcting or affirming:

Wheel landings are recommended with significant crosswinds, and you will be side slipping to keep the nose straight, so will land on the upwind main first, and then settle on both. Keep flying and let the tailwheel settle. By keep flying, I mean keep your upwind wing into the wind, increasing deflection as you lose speed until, in a significant crosswind, you have full aileron deflection. This WILL help you maintain a straight course, even in this sim. There’s a reason real tailwheel pilots don’t three-point in significant crosswinds. Landing with sideways momentum (unavoidable in a three point landing in a crosswind) is a prescription for a ground loop. Grass is more forgiving in this regard, and the sim appears to model the kind of sliding friction of grass, so you can do it, but a wheel landing is better geometry.

Wheel landings are always an option however. If you prefer them, and do them better, land that way whenever you wish. Anyone telling you otherwise is just exercising snobbish preference. I three point as default, but will wheel land when conditions call for it.

For taxiing tailwheel aircraft at walking speeds (you DO taxi at walking speeds, right?!) the mnemonic is “climb into the wind when in front, dive away from the wind when in back.” If the wind is on your front quarter, pull your stick back and toward the wind. If on your back quarter, push the stick forward and away from the wind. If directly cross, keep pitch neutral and push the stick into the wind, just like when you are taking off or landing in a crosswind. In this sim, pulling the stick into your belly does seem to assist in maintain lateral control. You should be landing with your tailwheel locked, and keeping it locked until you are at a walking pace, and ready to turn.

You have no steerable tailwheel. If is free castoring, so once it is moving laterally, it will keep doing so without a very sharp input to correct, which you can’t really do at low taxi/landing speeds, because pedal input only moves your rudder, and there isn’t enough wind across your rudder to make it effective. Pushing harder on the rudder, or increasing your hardware settings, won’t help at all. You need to CREATE wind across your rudder, which you can do with prop wash. A blast of throttle can help catch an incipient ground loop. Keep your tailwheel planted with full back stick when goosing the throttle. You don’t want to make a left ground loop worse by introducing gyro and P-factor into the equation by lifting onto the mains. Blast the throttle and correct. Don’t keep it on with full rudder or you’ll just get the tailwheel moving in the other direction and start a ground loop the opposite way.

Don’t be afraid to use differential brakes to help catch lateral momentum. This works better on some aircraft where better brakes are modeled correctly. Differential brakes are useful for maintaining a straight track while accelerating in the early stage of a take off. And can help on rollout.

But prop blasts and brakes will only catch incipient ground loops. If you’ve developed much lateral momentum, just sit back and enjoy the ride. You aren’t going to stop it.

As to rudder input, most people initiate ground loops by chasing control authority. At low speeds, by the time you see movement in one direction, you’ve been putting too much input in that direction already. My tailwheel instructor taught me to “box” the pedals. Jab and release and then quickly jab again. Right, left, left, right, as you need to maintain a straight track on the ground. It takes practice. There’s a reason tailwheel pilots are smug and think of themselves as men's men :-) because mastering a tailwheel aircraft on the ground takes real skill and practice.

The slip indicator is useless for takeoff and landing (on the ground). It’s sole purpose is to help you maintain coordinated flights in turns, which is particularly helpful in a sim, where you do not feel a slip or a skid in the seat of your pants. You can still tell a slip and a skid from visual clues (I can) if you know what you’re looking for. But, on the ground, your slip indicator is going to be uncentered a LOT of the time if you are using correct rudder inputs to taxi and takeoff and land correctly. Ignore it.

These are inherently difficult aircraft to handle on the ground. Keep practicing. You will pick up good motor skills if you are attentive and practice the right inputs. I hope I’ve helped you understand what those are a bit better. I may not be able to hit the broad side of a barn with my gunnery, but I can fly. And this sim models actual flight (like RoF before it) quite wonderfully, for a sim. Good RW practice is rewarded in this sim.

Edited January 4, 2018 by WWGriphos

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Differing Methods I guess then. Most of our Instructors are retired Military and they teach the same thing: Three Point Landings, all day, every day, if you can get away with it, even Tailwheel Landings. 

And in a Taildragger you aren't supposed to Slip, but Land with a Wing Hanging into the Wind, and your Nose straight on the Runway. 

 

I am no trained Motorpilot, my Experience is mainly in Gliders, but the principles are the same and I do take every chance to grab a flight in a Taildragger, mostly Job-15-180, Rotax Falke, Piper PA-19 (yes, 19) and my Favourite: Casa built Bücker 131. And it's the same advice for all. 

[WWGriphos]

Landing with a wing down into the wind and nose straight on the runway IS a side slip (and your slip indicator will show that).  Perhaps this is a US/EU terminology thing.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "Three Point landings....even Tailwheel Landings."  If you mean tri-gear aircraft, then you don't land those three point either for the most part, at least in light GA aircraft.  I've never flown turbo-props.  You should land on the mains and let the nose-wheel settle.  For tailwheel aircraft, it is as I said.  Indeed, a perfect three--point landing, where all three touch at the exact same time, is only possible in a stall landing.  If you have any flying speed left, then either the tail or the mains will touch first, unless you are very lucky (and either one of those is likely to produce a bounce).  And in a stall landing in a crosswind, the wind is pushing you laterally across the runway (can't be avoided) and so you land with side loads.  Not good.  Unless you are very slow, like a Cub, and even then, not ideal.  That's one reason wheel landings are preferable.  You land with minimal side loads (or none, if you are side slipping correctly).  

 

I have a Glider rating as well, but far fewer hours in sailplanes than powered aircraft (and I've never owned one).  The principles are not actually the same.  Flying gliders is an excellent way to learn to fly, because you learn to fly the wing!!  But sticking a noisemaker on the front with that whirly thing turning does indeed change things in some significant ways.  

Edited January 4, 2018 by WWGriphos

[busdriver]

Some of you guys giving advice clearly have no real training or experience. As someone with both, including quite a bit of taildragger experience with a tailwheel aircraft I own, I can tell you there’s a lot of bad advice in this thread.

 

 

_Stick and Rudder_ is still the best book written about aerodynamics for prop aircraft. _The Compleat Taildragger Pilot_ is number 2 for our kind of aircraft in particular. Read them if you want to better understand what is happening in all flight regimes.

 

 

A well written post.    

 

What do you own? And I agree with your book selection, while preferencing my copy of The Compleat Taildragger Pilot.

[busdriver]

I'm not sure what you mean by "Three Point landings....even Tailwheel Landings."  If you mean conventional (tri-gear) aircraft, then you don't land those three point either for the most part, at least in light GA aircraft.  I've never flown turbo-props.  You should land on the mains and let the nose-wheel settle.  For tailwheel aircraft, it is as I said.  Indeed, a perfect three--point landing, where all three touch at the exact same time, is only possible in a stall landing.  If you have any flying speed left, then either the tail or the mains will touch first, unless you are very lucky (and either one of those is likely to produce a bounce).  

 

I think the technique he was referring to (and that I sometimes find myself...grass runway, short field landings) is holding the three point attitude but getting a little more back pressure just before touchdown so the tailwheel indeed makes contact first. It is a preferred method by some folks. Brian over at Tailwheeler's Journal talks about it in his book.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

 

 

If you mean conventional (tri-gear) aircraft,

I don't. It's something that's normal for the Rotax Falke, which is a Taildragger, and it's normal for the Tailwheel to touch down first. These guys do it somewhat less pronounced than we do, but the Aircraft immediately settles down much more firmly than even with a 3 Pointer, and given the enormous Wings, it is nicer in a Crosswind to be more firmly down. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What it feels like though:

 

[Herne]

I was always taught to hold off close to the runway ( or airfield) and let the aircraft stall on to the ground. as for crosswinds, you can either approach with your nose slightly into wind, adjusting as necessary to keep you lined up, start your round out and hold off with nose slightly into wind, and when you are close to the stall, kick in the rudder to to align the aircraft with the runway.

Side Slip is where you approach with one one wing down, but use opposite aileron and rudder to maintain heading. Its fine for the approach, but I was never taught to land with one wing down, and I really do not think I would be comfortable to try. 
 

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

You of course Level Out just before touchdown. Landing with a Wing Hanging is something you do in ULs and Cubs. But then, those are wheel Landings. 

 

@Dakpilot: Ever tried this?

 

Edited January 4, 2018 by 6./ZG26_Klaus-Mann

[56RAF_Roblex]

I flew gliders for a long time and never saw a ground loop that was not caused by touching a wing on the ground too early which does not really apply here. Not even in a strong crosswind because the dynamics of a central wheel are different. If you touch down without straightening out you tend to get a skid & a hop but the wings can still easily be kept level using aileron until you are straight again.  In those videos the Grob hit something (the earthern bank?) and the K8 hit the crops. 

 

As far landing with one wing down,  that stops the wind getting under the wing and lifting it.   In my gliders it was sometimes necessary on take-off as well.  Only a tiny bit though or you end up with the wing being pushed down which is just as bad :-)

Edited January 4, 2018 by 56RAF_Roblex

[WWGriphos]

Yes, but those are high aspect slow aircraft.  They are landing at very low ground speeds, where the risk of bouncing the mains from a tail first touchdown is minimal.  It REALLY isn't the same for all aircraft.  And what you show with the Falke is basically a three-point stall landing, as busdriver suggests.  The mains are almost touching when the tail touches.  I'm sure a lot of my Chief three-pointers are like this with a slight touch of the tailwheel before settling.  The planes are clearly at stall speed in all three instances.  When holding off as long as possible in order to settle onto the runway, the tail is likely to touch just slightly before the mains.

 

We are sim-flying low aspect fast aircraft with significant weight.  Touching on the tail first is a recipe for slamming the mains into the ground, which will create a bounce.  

 

And on wheel landings, in significant crosswinds, I land on one main all the time.  It is by far the preferred method for controlling the aircraft whether it is a tailwheel or conventional aircraft in a stiff crosswind.

Edited January 4, 2018 by WWGriphos

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Well, I do all my 111, 88 and 110 Landings that way, as well as pretty much all Russians except Pe-2. Your mains don't slam down, they settle gently, because you still have those wings, cushioning. 

Edited January 4, 2018 by 6./ZG26_Klaus-Mann

[WWGriphos]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that some of our sim aircraft have wider stances than others.  I don't know what the OP is flying mostly, where he has such trouble, but the Spit is a particular culprit because it's mains are so close together.  This exacerbates the tendency to ground loop.  The Spit has a very low aspect wing with very high wing loading.  This makes it fast.  But it makes it a pain to handle on the ground.

 

The bombers you just mention have wider stances, and they are thus easier to land and keep straight.  It's just geometry.  They are also higher aspect aircraft, with larger wings for carrying a lot of weight.  Empty, as they are (or should be when landing), they have much lower wing loadings than the fighters.  This also helps them land more like the planes you show in the videos.  Gliders and ultralights have super low wing loading.  

Edited January 4, 2018 by WWGriphos

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Once again, opposite is true. The Wider the Gear, the larger the Lever moving you away from the straight and narrow. Wider Landing Gears are nice for taxiiing and at low Speed, on Grass however they can be quite menacing, because if one wheel digs in ever so slightly, the Aircraft rotates with incredible strength. The Less wide your Landing Gear, the straighter it will track even on Soft Surfaces. 

 

The Reason the 190 is so wide is because it's Wingtips will not touch the Ground in a Ground Loop. 

Edited January 4, 2018 by 6./ZG26_Klaus-Mann

[WWGriphos]

The lever is a function of distance between mains and tailwheel, not distance between mains.  Wide gear with a short lever can be an issue.  Wider gear with a long lever is better.  

 

You are correct that wider gear stance is better for taxiing and ground handling in general on most aircraft.  You are incorrect about whatever it is you're trying to say about grass and the danger of wider gear.  You shouldn't be taxiing at speeds that would swing your plane around radically if you hit a divot.  

 

I fly mainly out of a grass field with three runways with poor maintenance.  My wheels dig in "ever so slightly" constantly while taxiing.  I have no issues with the aircraft swinging wildly.  

 

The ground behavior of the Spit in the sim bears this out.

Edited January 4, 2018 by WWGriphos

[WWGriphos]

I was always taught to hold off close to the runway ( or airfield) and let the aircraft stall on to the ground. as for crosswinds, you can either approach with your nose slightly into wind, adjusting as necessary to keep you lined up, start your round out and hold off with nose slightly into wind, and when you are close to the stall, kick in the rudder to to align the aircraft with the runway.

 

Side Slip is where you approach with one one wing down, but use opposite aileron and rudder to maintain heading. Its fine for the approach, but I was never taught to land with one wing down, and I really do not think I would be comfortable to try. 

 

 

I prefer the side slip over the crab, but either way, you are side slipping when you touch down.  Kicking the rudder at the last minute to align the aircraft, even without dipping a wing into the wind, is cross-controlling and inducing a slip (or, technically, a skid).

 

I just prefer to maintain the slip all the way down, adjusting as necessary, rather than kick it in at the last second.

Edited January 4, 2018 by WWGriphos

[Dakpilot]

 

 

@Dakpilot: Ever tried this?

 

 

 

 

Nope, but I was better at nosewheel landings (wait for end)

 

 

Disclosure: That is not me but the pilot/instructor did my type rating, good or bad I actually have zero recordings of any of my flights

 

 

(sorry for off topic   )

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[busdriver]

Once again, opposite is true. The Wider the Gear, the larger the Lever moving you away from the straight and narrow. Wider Landing Gears are nice for taxiiing and at low Speed, on Grass however they can be quite menacing, because if one wheel digs in ever so slightly, the Aircraft rotates with incredible strength. The Less wide your Landing Gear, the straighter it will track even on Soft Surfaces. 

 

 

Wrong my friend. The narrower the main gear (Spitfire, Bf 109, Wildcat) the more prone to ground looping. 

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

The lever is a function of distance between mains and tailwheel, not distance between mains.  Wide gear with a short lever can be an issue.  Wider gear with a long lever is better.  

 

You are correct that wider gear stance is better for taxiing and ground handling in general on most aircraft.  You are incorrect about whatever it is you're trying to say about grass and the danger of wider gear.  You shouldn't be taxiing at speeds that would swing your plane around radically if you hit a divot.  

 

The ground behavior of the Spit in the sim bears this out.

Well, it is a lot of Stress for the Tailwheel nonetheless. There is a Reason no modern GA Taildragger has Wing mounted Gear anymore, it's just more comfortable. 

[WWGriphos]

The reason is modern GA taildraggers have fixed gears with widely positioned spring metal struts.  There's no stress on a free castoring tailwheel from lateral movement.  It's also better not to put landing stresses on the wing structure.  That's why most modern GA taildraggers put their landing gear as widely as spring struts will allow.  

Edited January 4, 2018 by WWGriphos

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Well you want a Compromise. This works just fine though. Some people just need training wheels.

 

Edited January 4, 2018 by 6./ZG26_Klaus-Mann

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

It takes a lot of work to fly badly. The less you do the better you fly. 

 

Edited January 4, 2018 by 6./ZG26_Klaus-Mann

[[CPT]CptJackSparrow]

This one is excellent

 

 

 

I read this while finishing my commercial.

 

 

Rather dry initially but loaded with NTSB statistics on the level of risk associated while in the killing zone for both pilots and their passengers.

[GP*]

Taking a break from the crosswind discussion for a minute...

 

Regarding landing:

 

- landing is a visual maneuver, meaning looking outside the cockpit is the priority. The 0/0 situation (airliner) Quax mentioned earlier is an exception. The only instruments you should be crosschecking are your altimeter and airspeed indicator, and then just your airspeed indicator on final. Students are taught the mantra of “aimpoint (where you want to land) - airspeed - aimpoint - airspeed” until touchdown.

 

- in all my years of flying, I’ve never heard of referencing the ball or slip indicator after landing. Nor have I heard of maintaining the throttle open after landing. Your goal is to get to a controlled speed as quickly as possible after landing (around taxi speed or so). Referencing instruments or keeping the throttle 20% open to track straight down the runway are gamer solutions. Use them if you want, but just realize what you’re doing goes completely against reality.

 

- rudder and differential braking are enough to stay straight (sts). Keep practicing. Don’t hold, but rather tap the brakes to make corrections when rudder authority alone isn’t enough. The order of priority is rudder, then differential braking. For those who play games with tricycle gear systems that have nosewheel steering (like DCS), the order is rudder, diff braking, then NWS.

 

I hope this helps. BoX has pretty good ground modeling, but it still isn’t 100% accurate. Keep practicing and realize the game has some limitations.

[Oubaas]

Only do gear-up landings. The prop will dig into the dirt and prevent looping. Sure, the maintenance guys will hate you, and the ops boss will lose his mind and rant hysterically at you about how he can't run a flight schedule if he doesn't have any airplanes, but you won't ground loop.

 

[busdriver]

This one is excellent

 

41XLma3u3SL._SL1500_.jpg

 

 

I like Rick's style. He's pretty prompt at answering emails too. After I witnessed some gross buffoonery back in 2016 (I refused to fly an airplane with a fuel leak, but a vastly less experienced guy flew anyway) I reached out to Rick. He shared a funny story. A friend of his told him whenever you wonder if you should take an airplane ask yourself, "if something happens will I look stupid in the NTSB report?" WRT to my story, the NTSB report would sound different with "a 300 hour private pilot landed in a corn field due to fuel exhaustion," versus, "an ATP with 18,000 hours landed in a corn field due to fuel exhaustion after taking off with a known fuel leak."