The better ground attack aircraft. P-47/190 or IL2/hs129?

[Dennis_Nedry]

What's the better type for ground attack. A fast fighter-bomber or a dedicated ground attack machine? What do you prefer?

[Finkeren]

In-game: For me it’s the IL-2, mainly because of its excellent survivability, also helped by its extremely versatile loadout options.

 

IRL: Probably the P-47. In most air forces except the VVS there was a clear tendency towards phasing out dedicated ground attackers and dive bombers (except for naval operations) in favor of heavy fighter-bombers and light twin engined attack bombers. This would indicate, that they were probably better for the task and/or less vulnerable. The 8 .50cals on the P-47 were ideal for dealing with soft ground targets, and since pretty much all ground attack aircraft were incredibly ineffective at dealing with armoured targets, I think the Jug probably packed the most punch.

[Lusekofte]

Well you survive in a FW 190, and probably will in a P 47 too. But men fly IL 2 and HS 129 , men die in war

[BlitzPig_EL]

The switch to fighter based ground attackers made a lot of sense.

 

They were faster, and in many ways were their own escorts, whereas the Hs129 would need an escort to taxi from it's dispersal point to the runway. 

[Lusekofte]

Look at the P 51 and Corsair , they served until the 60´s as ground pounders and could carry a heavy load of bombs and rockets. I do not argue about that. Give me a choice between a Corsair and a Dauntless, I choose the Dauntless every time, it is not because I think the Dauntless is better

[Gambit21]

Is this just name any ol plane that's not in the sim Luse? :D

Then I pick the F-15E.

 

In the spirit of the original post - P-47 hands down.

Lay on the hurt, then fight if need be.

Edited November 24, 2017 by Gambit21

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

For fun, it’s the Il-2. Its ability to lurk above the battlefield for a long time and pummel targets of opportunity with bombs, rockets, cannons, and machine guns is unbeatable.

In terms of effectiveness, it’s things like the 190 and P-47. Making a quick dash to the target area and dropping heavy ordnance is very safe.

Edited November 26, 2017 by Mitthrawnuruodo

[HagarTheHorrible]

The best ground attack aircraft is the one that brings you home ( without too many grey hairs).

[56RAF_Roblex]

It really depends on your target and whether you also have fighters to escort you and take out AA and whether you expect to have enemy fighters waiting.

 

The IL2 is versatile,  strong and quit agile.It has powerful guns so sometimes if it manages to get a 109 in its sights it can win a fight.  The 43 model can drop anti-tank canisters which do actually work.

The PE2 is fast and carries double the bombload of an IL2 but not canisters and it is more vulnerable to AA.  The AI gunner is arguably too good so might win you the fight but it never saves me :-)

The P40 carries a very big bomb and then becomes a fighter though only really effective if it gets time to climb again after dropping and get some speed before it meets any 109s.  Low down and slow the IL2 is probably more survivable.

If all the targets are soft like a truck convoy or train then fighters, preferably with centrally mounted cannons, are best

 

I would use the IL2 to attack a depot that has all its AA up but you need two to close it.  Its guns are good against convoys and especially good against armoured convoys, even PzIVs,  when the PTAB canisters are used. The guns kill tanks.

I would use a PE2 against a depot that has had its AA taken out already as it can close a depot all on its own. It can make a mess of a soft convoy using many small bombs but the AA has a good chance of getting it and it wont get many tanks.

I would use a P40 against  targets with many soft objects close together like an army camp as it has a big blast radius but it can only do that once.   It is good at taking out convoys and AA.  Not good on Pz IVs unless you get a direct hit.

I would use only fighters when the main purpose is air to air with ground targets only secondary,  Also for soft convoys though the Lagg-3 can take out tanks as well.

 

All these suggestions are fluid and the concept of 'Best' is a tricky one as in the real world manufacturing costs and materials and pilot training and quality of opposition are part of the equation.    It is probably telling though that the Germans decided it was more effective to put JU87 pilots into FW190s with only brief training.  Taken in isolation the JU87 is far and away the better choice for taking out precision targets but it all comes back to 'Will there be escorts ? Will there be enemy fighters? etc.

Edited November 24, 2017 by 56RAF_Roblex

[CanadaOne]

I like the Hs129, it's a great ground pounder, but catching up to trains in it is a *****.

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

It is my impression that stronger AA guns and different damage models have made Il-2 and Hs 129 ground attack much more difficult.

 

In 1946, I would often return from missions with damage such as holes in wings, shredded ailerons, missing rudder, jammed elevators, and broken gear.

 

Now, it seems a few hits from ground fire often result in immediate critical damage. Maybe I’m just imagining things, but I do feel that ground attack has become much less forgiving in aircraft like the Hs 129.

[Finkeren]

It is my impression that stronger AA guns and different damage models have made Il-2 and Hs 129 ground attack much more difficult.

 

In 1946, I would often return from missions with damage such as holes in wings, shredded ailerons, missing rudder, jammed elevators, and broken gear.

 

Now, it seems a few hits from ground fire often result in immediate critical damage. Maybe I’m just imagining things, but I do feel that ground attack has become much less forgiving in aircraft like the Hs 129.

There is a very simple reason for this. In IL2-1946 a large proportion of the AAA you encountered was either large caliber (such as flak 88), which would rarely hit but destroyed you instantly if it did, or smaller caliber like 20mm or HMGs which would often hit but often not fatally. In this sim there are a lot of heavy autocannon (37mm to 40mm) among the AAA, which are very accurate and will at least cripple your plane and often destroy it outright with one hit, and the armor of the IL-2/Hs 129 is completely ineffective against guns of this size.

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

Interesting. I never really payed attention to the types of guns shooting me down. I must have assumed that they never really changed.

[312_Lazy]

If all you need is to come fast, dive, drop your bomb in direction of your target and disappear, then a fighter is fine.

If you need to stay low and slow to search for your targets and hit them precisely, then attack plane is more effective and safer option IMO.

[PatrickAWlson]

If there are no enemy airplanes in the air my choice is the IL2.  Large, varied payload and purpose built for the job.

 

For survivability in a contested environment , I'm going with the P-47 followed by the 190.  Tough as it was, the IL2 was just too vulnerable to other aircraft,  IMHO the P-47 offers the best odds against air or ground threats.  The 190 would be a close second except for the performance penalty all of that extra armor in the F and G series incurred.

[InProgress]

For multi hs129 and other are bad, you can do the same job with fighter and also fight other planes. Thing is in real life you would not see enemy fighters on every single mission, you would have job to fly to x place and attack ground forces. You would not meet bunch of enemy fighters flying around over your target.

 

If they do carrier mode right where you won't meet enemy every mission in huge numbers then planes like hs129 will be really good.

Edited November 26, 2017 by InProgress

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

They are different aircraft. Fighter-bombers are good for interdiction tasks where air superiority is not guaranteed or escort is unavailable/inadequate. Dedicated attack aircraft are much better at destroying ground targets, but they can only strike if enemy fighters are a) not in the air or b) busy.

[InProgress]

Aaaand this is why I am waiting for carrier mode I am so tired of multiplayer or even campaign now, where there is bunch of fighters all over the place and success in multiplayer depends on luck. No fighters over target, drop bombs and go home. Fighters over target? You are dead.

[Eicio]

I'd choose a p47 or a Il2 any times for CAS. Why ? Rockets. They really were a jack of all trades, they were used against all kinds of soft targets and against any tank and were deadly effective. Paradoxically the germans didn't have any rockets (for ground support I mean) and that made allied aircraft much more effective and versatile when it came to close air support. Any fighter with HVAR could do the work of a Hs 129B3 and be more effective.

[Gambit21]

I'd choose a p47 or a Il2 any times for CAS. Why ? Rockets. They really were a jack of all trades, they were used against all kinds of soft targets and against any tank and were deadly effective. Paradoxically the germans didn't have any rockets (for ground support I mean) and that made allied aircraft much more effective and versatile when it came to close air support. Any fighter with HVAR could do the work of a Hs 129B3 and be more effective.

Rockets had little to do with it honestly.

What made the P-47 a superior ground attack aircraft was it's ability to carry 2500lbs of ordinance on top of it's already devastating compliment of 8 x .50 cal machine guns. Normally this meant bombs.

Combine this with it's speed, survivability, and ability to match enemy fighters on even terms and you have a recipe for a superior CAS platform.

 

With just it's guns alone you'd have to look to the Beaufighter to find an aircraft that packed as big (or bigger) of a whallop.

Rockets are an excellent bonus but hardly what set the P-47 apart.

[VeryOldMan]

Aaaand this is why I am waiting for carrier mode I am so tired of multiplayer or even campaign now, where there is bunch of fighters all over the place and success in multiplayer depends on luck. No fighters over target, drop bombs and go home. Fighters over target? You are dead.

Ever given thought on  listening to coms and when enemies are reported over  target...  deviate to the secondary target? 

I'd choose a p47 or a Il2 any times for CAS. Why ? Rockets. They really were a jack of all trades, they were used against all kinds of soft targets and against any tank and were deadly effective. Paradoxically the germans didn't have any rockets (for ground support I mean) and that made allied aircraft much more effective and versatile when it came to close air support. Any fighter with HVAR could do the work of a Hs 129B3 and be more effective.

You mean the same rockets  that the Il2  also has? THe same rockets  that  were considered  ntohign but a nuiseance by  the armies being attacked by them? Ground forces fear bombs, not unguided rockets.

[Max_Damage]

Only IL2.