Developer Diary, Part 180 - Discussion

[Jason_Williams]

Get off of the Swastika issue. You want a swastika paint your own skin with it. It is what it is, nothing we can do about it. 

 

Jason

[Flynco]

Very nice go on

[sniperton]

Jason, I really don't want to be a pain in the ass (I know I am), and I am well aware that I'm beating a dead horse (I know I do), but, finally, could we ever have an answer to why we are not allowed to shoot at a virtual plane with that damned thing on its tail? Europen law doesn't ban it without discretion, perhaps American or Russian does? I know you want to avoid even the possibility of being charged, a sort of safe game as I understand, but those skins just look ridiculous for someone whose grandfather died as a jew in a labour camp.

[Rolling_Thunder]

The Finnish swastika was not a symbol for politics, I think it was a legit question, personally I think the constant attempt to sensor others is more questionable

Its not a question of censoring others. Its a topic that is always brought up and the answer has never changed and never will. Its a pointless debate on these forums. If you want answers and thing to change seek them in the courts. Take it to the European courts, take it to the lawmakers of the respective countries.

[Field-Ops]

Jason, I really don't want to be a pain in the ass (I know I am), and I am well aware that I'm beating a dead horse (I know I do), but, finally, could we ever have an answer to why we are not allowed to shoot at a virtual plane with that damned thing on its tail? Europen law doesn't ban it without discretion, perhaps American or Russian does? I know you want to avoid even the possibility of being charged, a sort of safe game as I understand, but those skins just look ridiculous for someone whose grandfather died as a jew in a labour camp.

If even one country outright bans the imagery there is no way around it than to neuter the symbol.

[sniperton]

If even one country outright bans the imagery there is no way around it than to neuter the symbol.

I live in a country where the Red Star is banned. Not without discretion, but it's definetely banned. Should we ban it from the game on the pretext that the Red Star is against Humanity? Seriously. Please go back to my question. If we ban everything that might be banned in any of the countries concerned, we get back to Star Wars where an unspecified Empire fights with an unspecified Republic for survival.

[Field-Ops]

I live in a country where the Red Star is banned. Not without discretion, but it's definetely banned. Should we ban it from the game on the pretext that the Red Star is against Humanity? Seriously. Please go back to my question. If we ban everything that might be banned in any of the countries concerned, we get back to Star Wars where an unspecified Empire fights with an unspecified Republic for survival.

Sadly we dont live in a completely rational world where law is concerned. Take a note from Rolling Thunder's quote directly above mine.

[DD_Arthur]

@sniperton; whatever you may think,  certain symbols are banned in certain countries.  There is no getting around this.  If the game is to be sold in these countries then certain symbols must be omitted from the products sold by 1CGS if they are to avoid the risk of what could be extremely costly legal action.

 

You think these bans on the use of symbols in some countries is wrong?  Fine, write to your MP, write to your Prime Minister, write to the EU and start your own legal action because this is a PC game and these are the forums for a PC game.

 

Thats all.  

[Feathered_IV]

I appreciate the attention to detail on the skins. I hope I can also echo the requests of others too for more attention to regular pilot’s aircraft.

 

I also prefer to fly as average-Barry and not in the shoes of the greatest aces every time. It looks unusual when the only choices are unmarked factory fresh machines and a veritable mardigras of freaks and peacocks from every theatre of the war.

[Cybermat47]

The issue of the swastika is up to Russian lawmakers, not the dev team.

[LukeFF]

Get off of the Swastika issue. You want a swastika paint your own skin with it. It is what it is, nothing we can do about it.

 

Jason

[Missionbug]

Get off of the Swastika issue. You want a swastika paint your own skin with it. It is what it is, nothing we can do about it. 

 

Jason

 

 

I did suggest to Han once that you completely remove the current marking from the tail of German aircraft as it looks stupid portrayed in the way it does currently and just have nothing there but paint, he did not seem to like the idea.

 

That way we could leave certain authentic details to the skin artists for individual use of each player or maybe as in the old game have the ability for each player to enable certain options in the config.ini or through a mod enabler. 

 

 

 

Anyway, that said the skins and history lesson are superb, thank you very much to those who put it all together.

 

 

Wishing you all the very best, Pete.

[coconut]

Nice to read about the history and people behind the skins.

I suggest to add the bit of historical context behind each skin to the game. You would see the text somewhere on the screen when you select a skin. You don't need to have descriptions for all skins, it's OK to show only the ones you have so far. Maybe the community can contribute similar descriptions for the other existing skins later.

 

I'm also in favour of basic camo skins, at least one winter and one non-winter, and they should be the default for the season of the map. Also associate all custom skins to one of these default skins, so that people see the proper camouflage when they lack the custom skin.

 

And while it's suggestion time, add a hash to each skin. In multiplayer, don't display a skin from the local hard disk if the hash doesn't match the hash of the skin on the hard disk of the player wearing that skin.

Edited November 27, 2017 by coconut

[Letka_13/Arrow_]

I did suggest to Han once that you completely remove the current marking from the tail of German aircraft as it looks stupid portrayed in the way it does currently and just have nothing there but paint, he did not seem to like the idea.

 

 

 

I support this too, I would remove the current marking from the tail of German aircraft and leave just paint, it would look much better. 

[JG4_dingsda]

Nice to read about the history and people behind the skins.

I suggest to add the bit of historical context behind each skin to the game. You would see the text somewhere on the screen when you select a skin. You don't need to have descriptions for all skins, it's OK to show only the ones you have so far. Maybe the community can contribute similar descriptions for the other existing skins later.

 

I'm also in favour of basic camo skins, at least one winter and one non-winter, and they should be the default for the season of the map. Also associate all custom skins to one of these default skins, so that people see the proper camouflage when they lack the custom skin.

 

And while it's suggestion time, add a hash to each skin. In multiplayer, don't display a skin from the local hard disk if the hash doesn't match the hash of the skin on the hard disk of the player wearing that skin.

I agree with each of those points, coconut. The hashing-the-skins-idea crossed my mind already as well.   

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Where's Luke with that dead horse gif when we need him?

[Chief_Mouser]

I support this too, I would remove the current marking from the tail of German aircraft and leave just paint, it would look much better.

That's how it was in the old Il-2; a much superior solution than having half a 'banned-in-some-countries' symbol. Plus there was the 'Hakenkreuz enabler' that would show them if you wished to see them. Btw, the website of the German city of Nuremberg hosts this pdf https://www.nuernberg.de/imperia/md/stadtportal_e/dokumente/zeppelin_field_nuremberg_refurbishment.pdf without any prior warning as to the symbols encountered within. It doesn't seem to bother them.

Edited November 27, 2017 by 216th_Cat

[ADorante]

That's how it was in the old Il-2; a much superior solution than having half a 'banned-in-some-countries' symbol. Plus there was the 'Hakenkreuz enabler' that would show them if you wished to see them. Btw, the website of the German city of Nuremberg hosts this pdf https://www.nuernberg.de/imperia/md/stadtportal_e/dokumente/zeppelin_field_nuremberg_refurbishment.pdf without any prior warning as to the symbols encountered within. It doesn't seem to bother them.

 

Russian laws don't apply to Nürnberg, German laws do. And German laws concerning the use of the swastika allow its use in historic and artistic documents and works. I guess your example pdf falls under this case.

 

[edit] Computer games in Germany are now considered art. Some years before their perceived lack of complexity made that distinguishment complicated. With the release of the terribly mangled German version of Wolfenstein II many commentators are debating if it isn't time for any publisher to release a game WITH swastikas in Germany.

 

In the past any district attorney could set a game with risky content (too much violence, more sex than usual, etc) on a list and forbid the sale in shops. Publishers could appeal, but with no guarantee and high costs.

 

And because nobody has tried this appeal for an artful modern game with swastikas until now and risked going all the way - even when everybody in Germany says it is time, the swastika situation stays as it is. 

Edited November 27, 2017 by ADorante

[Chief_Mouser]

It is effect on the potential sales in countries other than Russia that the team also has to be aware of. But yeah, a definite minefield for the devs. Russia is getting more extreme about the use of swastikas whereas Germany may be becoming more realistic about it.

Edited November 27, 2017 by 216th_Cat

[CisTer-dB-]

I love the pilots bio's, very nice touch 

Edited November 27, 2017 by ATAG_dB