the 109 G14

[r153]

What can we expect here from in game flight modeling , are we expecting that next flying brick?

[Legioneod]

Why would it be a flying brick? The current 109s aren't, so why would this one be?

[r153]

 

 

Why would it be a flying brick? The current 109s aren't, so why would this one be?

 

No hoping it's competitive , just asking what people are expecting here   

[CanadaOne]

No hoping it's competitive , just asking what people are expecting here

 

A good damage model, exploding fuel tanks, and its ability to make a substantial crater when it impacts the ground.

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

We'll certainly know more about alleged bricks once we get our hands on the G-6. 

[Willy__]

 

 

A good damage model, exploding fuel tanks

 

Really ? More than what we have now ? You can sneeze at the 109s and they fall apart, if you fart inside them you might cause a fuel leak... 

[thebusdriver]

What can we expect here from in game flight modeling , are we expecting that next flying brick?

It'll be like the 109G-2, but, because it's 80kph faster, it'll lock up sooner, relative to the opposition.  Also, it will have slightly more firepower.

 

Honestly, unless the devs address stick forces, the 109s should be easy pickings for western fighters.  The fact that the 109 - in BoS - starts getting hard to maneuver at 500kph IAS, is silly.

[r153]

 

 

BoS - starts getting hard to maneuver at 500kph IAS

 

 

A Brick then 

[III/JG2Gustav05]

with current overdone elevator lock-up behavior, all 109s are doomed. no interest to fly it anymore. yes we still have 190, but it is just a hit and run plane, not a fighter. 

[FTC_Riksen]

Although I do like this new FM for the 109, I have to agree, based on what I've read, that the elevator stifiness at high speeds happen too early. It should, perhaps, be taking place around 600-650 as opppsed to the 500 we have now. But again, I've never flown one to even be able to say anything. You can/have to adapt to it but it just feels somewhat exaggerated when compared to other fighters.

[LukeFF]

Did MrFies create a new account?

[ShamrockOneFive]

It's interesting to me on a quick search on Bf109 handling characteristics that I read an interesting summary by Mark Hannah. The comments on the elevator were illuminating.

 

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?151221-Flying-the-Messerschmitt-Bf-109

[Field-Ops]

It's interesting to me on a quick search on Bf109 handling characteristics that I read an interesting summary by Mark Hannah. The comments on the elevator were illuminating.

 

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?151221-Flying-the-Messerschmitt-Bf-109

Thats quite a fascinating read 

[r153]

Thats quite a fascinating read 

Guessing this has been debated a few times  and goes no where  

 

A pilot exerting all his strength cannot apply more than one-fifth aileron at 400 mph

 

400 mph = 643 kph  hmmm 

[F/JG300_Gruber]

 

 

Elevator

This is an exceptionally good control at low air speeds, being fairly heavy and not over-sensitive. Above 250 mph (=402kph), however, it becomes too heavy, so that maneuvrability is seriously restricted.

 

And this is only at fast cruise speed...

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

Difficult to interpret, such statements are. Perhaps the realistic response could be determined from the properties of the system. It should be possible to solve for the stick forces as every part of the airframe is known.

 

Arguing about handling based on tests always seems futile. A theoretical approach, more successful might be.

 

Of course nobody has time for that.

[ZachariasX]

It'll be like the 109G-2, but, because it's 80kph faster, it'll lock up sooner, relative to the opposition.  Also, it will have slightly more firepower.

 

Honestly, unless the devs address stick forces, the 109s should be easy pickings for western fighters.  The fact that the 109 - in BoS - starts getting hard to maneuver at 500kph IAS, is silly.

No, it should getting hard to maneuver (especially at low altitude) at that speed. This is the main difference netween early and late war aircraft, increased combat speed. Just putting a more powerful engine to the same airframe doesn‘t do that, although it does increase top speed and climb.

[Finkeren]

What should be expected:

 

1. MW50 as standard

 

2. MK 108 as standard

 

3. Better rudder authority

 

4. Otherwise unchanged handling from Bf 109G6

 

5. Erla Haube with armoured glass headrest as standard

 

Apart from the MW50 boost and better rearwards visibility, there is really not a whole lot to distinguish it from the G6 we’re getting.

[VeryOldMan]

It'll be like the 109G-2, but, because it's 80kph faster, it'll lock up sooner, relative to the opposition.  Also, it will have slightly more firepower.

 

Honestly, unless the devs address stick forces, the 109s should be easy pickings for western fighters.  The fact that the 109 - in BoS - starts getting hard to maneuver at 500kph IAS, is silly.

Slight more firepower?  THe 30mm can  knock out ANY  plane in game with a single round.

And this is only at fast cruise speed...

Most if not all the  descriptions I read are nto about bad elevator authority, but about STIFFENED elevator (completely different  a non responsive control to a control that  needs massive strenght to  move) 

 

And that was the reason for germany being the first country  to  implement rigorous strength exercise routines for the pilots. THey needed to be in shape otherwise  they woudl not be able to maneuver the plane  after a few minutes of  combat maneuvers.

[1_Robert_]

It's interesting to me on a quick search on Bf109 handling characteristics that I read an interesting summary by Mark Hannah. The comments on the elevator were illuminating.

 

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?151221-Flying-the-Messerschmitt-Bf-109

Great link, amazing read! Thanks for sharing.

[=EXPEND=Capt_Yorkshire]

Hi devs please look into the 109's locking up so early.

[III/JG53Frankyboy]

What should be expected:

 

...............

 

2. MK 108 as standard

 

...............

no , thats still -/U4 modification in the G-14. Standard is MG151/20.

in the K-4, MK108 is Default. And a K-4 can carry s SC500 bomb. The G-14 is still restricted to SC250 because of groundclearance

[Kurfurst]

I did a bit of an estimation of G-14 (standard variant, with MG 151/20, not the /U4 MK 108 variant that was cc 50 kg heavier) performance in climb and level speed.

 

Original documents for the G-14 (and G-14/AS) level speed figures are available, but climb is a bit more tricky because their is only one calculation available for full power for the G-14/AS/U4 (high altitude variant) and the G-14/U4, both equipped with gondolas.

 

However as the effect of gondolas on climb is fairly well known, its possible to estimate with reasonable accuracy the climb performance of the 'clean' fighter configurations. 

 

I have overlayed it on the K-4's performance curves (this is for the DB 605DB engine setting with 1.8 ata / 1850 PS output, it's not clear yet wheter we get this variant or the 1.98ata DB 605DC engine setting that was used parallel to it at the time of Bodenplatte).

 

In any case, it should give some idea of the G-14's performance characteristics. Actually, its fairly potent at low altitudes because of the low/mid altitude engine and propeller combination, and it's also a bit lighter than the high altitude K-4, so, power to weight ratio is very impressive and it will show in its acceleration,climb and turn rate characteristics (at least compared to the 1.8ata K-4). 

 

[BubiHUN]

Really love how people here always forget the 109 never was a Hack and Slash plane. It needs tactics, and with many of those western planes, you can forget turning and turning AND TURNING AND TURNING at 400- meters. Well not with the spitfire. 
The main thing is, air wars, and in this sim, all battles/matches depends on tactics. I saw red planes many times as they spotted me on their 6, and they just almost ripped away their sticks to evade. I always laugh when i saw it. The "AHH IT WILL BE GARBAGE" comments always make me smile. In that state of the war, no planes were such agile(except spitfire). 
Flying the 109 always needs a normal seized brain, and a little caution

Edited November 24, 2017 by -[HRAF]BubiHUN

[CanadaOne]

Really ? More than what we have now ? You can sneeze at the 109s and they fall apart, if you fart inside them you might cause a fuel leak... 

I just like the "thump" they make when they lawn dart after a helping of cannon fire.

 

It's a very satisfying sound.

[FTC_Riksen]

Really love how people here always forget the 109 never was a Hack and Slash plane. It needs tactics, and with many of those western planes, you can forget turning and turning AND TURNING AND TURNING at 400- meters. Well not with the spitfire.

The main thing is, air wars, and in this sim, all battles/matches depends on tactics. I saw red planes many times as they spotted me on their 6, and they just almost ripped away their sticks to evade. I always laugh when i saw it. The "AHH IT WILL BE GARBAGE" comments always make me smile. In that state of the war, no planes were such agile(except spitfire).

Flying the 109 always needs a normal seized brain, and a little caution

"How people here" is a big generalization. If u bother to read the comments above, you will see that not everyone thinks the 109 is useless. Quite the oposite really. The 109 is currently the best plane in the game IMHO ... flying with brains is what got me to a streak of 81 in the previous TAW so yes it also largely depends on the pilot but that does not mean the FM is 100% correct in the current patch just like it was not right to be able to do sharp turns at 700+ in the previous patches ... Edited November 24, 2017 by 4./JG52_Riksen

[BubiHUN]

"How people here" is a big generalization. If u bother to read the comments above, you will see that not everyone thinks the 109 is useless. Quite the oposite really. The 109 is currently the best plane in the game IMHO ... flying with brains is what got me to a streak of 81 in the previous TAW so yes it also largely depends on the pilot but that does not mean the FM is 100% correct in the current patch just like it was not right to be able to do sharp turns at 700+ in the previous patches ...

i know that. But i hope the devs will do everything to make it realistic as possible. 

[1_Robert_]

 ... flying with brains is what got me to a streak of 81 in the previous TAW ...

 

[VesseL]

Although I do like this new FM for the 109, I have to agree, based on what I've read, that the elevator stifiness at high speeds happen too early. It should, perhaps, be taking place around 600-650 as opppsed to the 500 we have now. But again, I've never flown one to even be able to say anything. You can/have to adapt to it but it just feels somewhat exaggerated when compared to other fighters.

+1

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

"How people here" is a big generalization. If u bother to read the comments above, you will see that not everyone thinks the 109 is useless. Quite the oposite really. The 109 is currently the best plane in the game IMHO ... flying with brains is what got me to a streak of 81 in the previous TAW so yes it also largely depends on the pilot but that does not mean the FM is 100% correct in the current patch just like it was not right to be able to do sharp turns at 700+ in the previous patches ...

Riksen,

 

you are not the norm. You are an exceptional pilot. A very good pilot can be amazing in any plane that fits his style of flight. That said, I need flight school for the BF109s. From next week onwards RL allows me to fly again regularly.

[ShamrockOneFive]

Went looking for some further reading and found this thread (https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=127191&page=100) and particularly this note from another test pilot about the heavy elevator.

 

At higher speed, above 300 kmph, the 109 gets increasingly heavy on controls, it's quite a hand full", explains Sigi Knoll.

This is about a restored G-4. The rest of the read is absolutely fascinating as well and I thoroughly enjoyed the various pilots comments on the plane.

 

A bit of a handful at times but also a superb performer would be the summary and also true of our simulation version as well.

Really love how people here always forget the 109 never was a Hack and Slash plane. It needs tactics, and with many of those western planes, you can forget turning and turning AND TURNING AND TURNING at 400- meters. Well not with the spitfire. 

The main thing is, air wars, and in this sim, all battles/matches depends on tactics. I saw red planes many times as they spotted me on their 6, and they just almost ripped away their sticks to evade. I always laugh when i saw it. The "AHH IT WILL BE GARBAGE" comments always make me smile. In that state of the war, no planes were such agile(except spitfire). 

Flying the 109 always needs a normal seized brain, and a little caution

  

 

Absolutely true. It's a fantastic aircraft but it does need to be flown with a good knowledge of what it can and can't do. I, intending to devote some exclusive time to the Bf109, particularly by replaying Ten Days of Autumn soon, to really dig in on the new flight model. I've done more than a few hours but I'm not yet back to my old self in it.

Riksen,

 

you are not the norm. You are an exceptional pilot. A very good pilot can be amazing in any plane that fits his style of flight. That said, I need flight school for the BF109s. From next week onwards RL allows me to fly again regularly.

Keep practising and reading about it is my advice. Watch YouTube replays too!

[ACG_Smokejumper]

What can we expect here from in game flight modeling , are we expecting that next flying brick?

 

I want a Corsair too.  

 

1:1 glide ratio. No power and she's almost a brick!

[Solty]

Guessing this has been debated a few times and goes no where

 

A pilot exerting all his strength cannot apply more than one-fifth aileron at 400 mph

 

400 mph = 643 kph hmmm

So? Do you really think that it just happens at exactly 643kph and before the plane is easy to fly? It is a two handed plane above 500kph. Many planes had similar issues and nobody whines as much as you people do. I do not like Yak 1 because it has similar issues. Not every plane can be like P-51D and have light elevator at high speeds.

 

If you do not like the 109 don't fly it. It's always the same you are always looking for something that doesn't exist and claim Russian bias in the process. Tiresome.

 

Every plane in the game has different stick forces. Yak and 109 have the most restricting at high speeds and that is quite accurately portrayed. 190 has the lowest stick forces also very well modelled that especially allow for very good roll rate. Every plane is different, don't expect P51D level of high speed maneuverability from 109.

Edited December 29, 2017 by =LD=Solty

[Solty]

The stiffness of 109 is way too early while every red plane is more maneuverable above 500kph-700kph. For planes with higher wingload it's extremly questionable. Even Yak1, Yak9, La5, Lagg3 and so on were well known for their bad dive performence and stiffness.

But for Bodenplatte the G14 and K4 should be supiorer in flight characteristics in nearly everything than their allied counterparts. The history channel guys will struggle in their P51s on a balanced server and try hard to achieve kills.(Do not get me wrong, i would love to fly the 51!)

Except P51 Speed over 5000m, Spitfire turn, Tempest topspeed.

Just don't be disappointed when Bodenplate arrives.

[Finkeren]

The stiffness of 109 is way too early while every red plane is more maneuverable above 500kph-700kph.

Try flying the MiG-3 at 500+ and then come back and look me in the eyes while you repeat that.

[Finkeren]

For planes with higher wingload it's extremly questionable.

All Soviet designed fighters in the sim have a lower wing loading with normal combat loadout than the later Bf 109s.

Even Yak1, Yak9, La5, Lagg3 and so on were well known for their bad dive performence and stiffness.

Where did you read, that those fighters had particularly bad dive performance or suffered from control stiffness any worse than the Bf 109?

 

Soviet fighters in general had a much lower maximum air speed allowed (as is reflected in the sim) because of a tendency for their wooden wings to get damaged. That doesn’t by itself indicate bad dive performance or stiffness of controls.

[=X51=VC_]

Shouldn't we expect Flettner tabs on the G-14 and therefore less speed related stiffening at least in some axes? Which controls did the 109 get Flettner tabs on IRL?

[Panthera]

So? Do you really think that it just happens at exactly 643kph and before the plane is easy to fly? It is a two handed plane above 500kph. Many planes had similar issues and nobody whines as much as you people do. I do not like Yak 1 because it has similar issues. Not every plane can be like P-51D and have light elevator at high speeds.

 

If you do not like the 109 don't fly it. It's always the same you are always looking for something that doesn't exist and claim Russian bias in the process. Tiresome.

 

Every plane in the game has different stick forces. Yak and 109 have the most restricting at high speeds and that is quite accurately portrayed. 190 has the lowest stick forces also very well modelled that especially allow for very good roll rate. Every plane is different, don't expect P51D level of high speed maneuverability from 109.

 

Funny thing about that is that the 109 & P-51 are both said to have the same high elevator stick forces at speed, and that comes from pilots who fly both aircraft.

 

So I guess we can expect similar limitations for the P-51 at high speeds...

Shouldn't we expect Flettner tabs on the G-14 and therefore less speed related stiffening at least in some axes? Which controls did the 109 get Flettner tabs on IRL?

 

The K-4 had them on the elevators according to one document I believe, so you should expect it to have a lot light elevator controls at high speeds.

[SAS_Storebror]

A pilot exerting all his strength cannot apply more than one-fifth aileron at 400 mph

 

400 mph = 643 kph  hmmm 

 

"Elevator (...) Above 250 mph, however, it becomes too heavy, so that maneuvrability is seriously restricted."

250mph ~ 400km/h

 

The fact that the 109 - in BoS - starts getting hard to maneuver at 500kph IAS, is silly.

 

 

According to the report in question, you are right. It shouldn't happen at 500km/h but at 400km/h already.

But that's just one report.

Giving the 109 another 100km/h "bonus" might be a fair compromise.

 

Cheers!

Mike

[sniperton]

From the test reports I have read it appears that at high speeds a 109 G pilot had to cope with

1) excessive stick forces only comparable to those in the Mustang, while

2) the cramped cockpit and the short travel of the stick seriously limited him in exerting the needed forces.

 

This two combined makes me think that the modeling of progressive elevator stiffening beyond 450/500 kph IAS is not fundamentally wrong, however unnatural it feels compared to other aircrafts in the game.

 

The real question for me is how to fly the 109 all that given. I usually find myself constantly playing with the stabilizer and relying more on the rudder than in any other plane. Any ideas?