Spitfire IX discussion

[Kurfurst]

I do not think facts are in any way 'disingenuous'.

[Tomsk]

Given that JG 51 had F-2s and -4s until Autumn '42 (See Bergstrom), JG54 were running mixed A-4s, A-5s and A-6s at the time of Kursk (see Hannig) and JG 11 were still running late E models in 1942 (see Knocke), the disparity between 'theoretically available' and 'actually used' can be large, but it is not confined to the RAF.

 

Yes, personally I'm more interested in seeing a simulation of the most common planes in the theatre. I'm hoping to see P-51s and Spit IXs going against Gustavs and Antons, rather than squadrons of Dora's facing down squadrons of Tempests. I'm really looking forward to Battle of Bodenplatte, love the planes in the set ... but I think it'll need really good balance on the servers in terms of allowed numbers of various types.

 

As such I see 25lb boost as a useful option for balance purposes ... but I hope it doesn't actually get used that much in MP.

[EAF19_Marsh]

I do not think facts are in any way 'disingenuous'.

 

 

That was no what I said and you know better than that. Or perhaps you do not understand the term.

 

Posting numbers and details from Spring of 1944 in an effort to influence a discussion on aircraft operations in the following December - thus attempting to create an erroneous conception out of date with the exact period of discussion - is disingenuous.

[=RvE=Windmills]

We aren't getting a "hyper Spit", indeed it'll be bog-standard if it's running +18lb (which is what I feel we should get as standard). Also, +25lb is arguably the single biggest possible 'mod' affecting raw performance below 20k that the IX can get, although clipped wings would be a contender as well although with more of an emphasis on agility rather than speed/climb.

 

I mean this in the sense of it being unlikely that we'll ever get another IX that will be modelled to later specs. Whatever was available to the IX machines at this moment until the end of the war could reasonably be featured on this model, it not being sensible to 'save' anything for subsequent projects.

[LukeFF]

When anyone says an aircraft shouldn't get a modification that the aircraft commonly had (even if it is a little out of timescale) all you have to do is reference the Macchi and its gunpods

One aircraft having a modification that was never used operationally does not make for a trend - it's just an anomaly.

[EAF19_Marsh]

One aircraft having a modification that was never used operationally does not make for a trend - it's just an anomaly.

 

 

Yes, but the subtler question is where does an anomaly become a trend, or something in between?

[Bullets]

One aircraft having a modification that was never used operationally does not make for a trend - it's just an anomaly.

 

It should set precedent though and the Macchi was just an extreme example.

[Herne]

A little bit off topic, but I'm sure some of you genius' will know.

I'm trying to find out how long operation bodenplatte went on for. Wiki tells me it was launched January the 1st 1945, but I cant seem to find an end date ?

[EAF19_Marsh]

Was over by late morning.

 

The new title is really about the winter 1944-45 and the wider activity over the front, including the Ardennes. The map will hopefully cover a suitably large area to widen the interest and utility.

 

Bodenplatte itself was a one-off that cost the Luftwaffe a lot of men and material, for the temporary dislocation of Allied air power.

[Kurfurst]

That was no what I said and you know better than that. Or perhaps you do not understand the term.

 

Posting numbers and details from Spring of 1944 in an effort to influence a discussion on aircraft operations in the following December - thus attempting to create an erroneous conception out of date with the exact period of discussion - is disingenuous.

 

I beg to differ, you are merely building up a strawman arguement. Kindly refer back to Post #69 which is the one that actually makes disingenuous statements by holding back certain facts, i.e. strongly implying that the Mk XIV was some kind of main air superiority fighter of the RAF in 1943 that was in full-scale series production, or that is implied that it is somehow unfair that the Mark IX 'from 1943' is in an '1944' scenario.

 

I have shown, with as much detailed figures that I had on hand from end of 1943, mid 1944 and also late 1944 that this was far from the case and that neither type was operationally significant in their allaged 'operational' dates, which merely refer to one or two Squadrons 'converting' to the type, and that in practice this was too of an administrative act rather than an actual one, for there were a lack of available planes. 

 

You have cherry picked the figures I have posted and clearly indicated to be for May 1944 and which mainly referred to the Mark XIV's low availability, which is obvious to anyone from the context as is the fact the May 1944 obviously does not refer to December 1944 either. And yes, it also list the Mark Vs still present with units, just like it all other Marks like Mark XII that neither operated on the 'Continent' either, especially not in May 1944. Mark Vs did though. I suppose you do not like that Mark Vs are still present in significant numbers with RAF fighter units even in mid-1944? Well, life is tough, but I do not suppose I will have to sugar up to facts just fo

 

It was then that you have managed to somehow arrive at a conclusion that refuting claims that are either completely baseless or at the very least highly economical with the truth, with verifiable and well resourced facts, provided to you free of charge in my own free time, is, somehow, disingenuous.

 

As for the operations in December, repeating the types of aircraft operated by the 2nd TAF is entirely unnecessary, as it is well known and it has been posted already by others.

[Talisman]

Kurfurst,

 

I would be grateful for an apology from you, because if you go back and read my post properly you will see my reference to the Spitfire Mk XIV as a high-altitude air superiority fighter for 2nd TAF, with 6 squadrons, in 1944, not in 1943, as stated above by you.  So I have not been disingenuous, as you put it.

It is fact that the Spitfire XIV entered full operational service in December 1943 and production was in place to support full operational service as squadrons began to convert to the XIV.  My point is not about numbers, it is about technology and the technological time line.  The XIV is a late 1943 technology aircraft that got into its stride in 1944 with further small refinements.

Similarly, the Mk IXLF type which I specifically referred to is early 1943 technology, as this is when it entered full operational service.

I am not sure why you bring up the Spit Mk V, since at this time these aircraft were on reserve in the UK and used by squadrons returned to the UK for rest and recuperation from the front line.  Yes, a small number were used as 'spotters', but this is not significant in terms of our combat flight simulation world.

The allies had air superiority at this time and could get away with using older technology aircraft, like the Typhoon and Spitfire Mk IX.  They had enough Spitfire Mk XIV to do the job that was needed under the circumstances of air superiority.  The thing is, in our flight sim world it is not practical to model air superiority for one side, as we are doing this for fun!  That is why the technological time line is of importance for aircraft match-up from different sides.  I suggest that we need the Spitfire XIV in our combat simulation for the Allied side, or we will not have the 2nd TAF high-altitude air superiority aircraft type represented that was historically used in enough numbers to do the job.  Particularly as we are getting the Me 262 and the 190 Dora.  If, for some reason, you cannot acknowledge the logic in this I don't know what else to say.

I suspect that the developers of this simulation will eventually provide the Spitfire XIV, so I am happy to wait and hope. 

 

Happy landings,

 

56RAF_Talisman 

[Talisman]

Eh, no (and this is the problem with sourcing Wikipedia). Kommando Nowotny and KG51 were flying 262s before 1945.

 

Hello LukeFF,

 

If you read the link I provided with my post, I thing you will see that this was whilst flying as part of trials and development unit activity.  This was not a  standard fully operational unit at the time and I think you will find that the Me 262 was still being developed as far as manufacturing was concerned as well.

 

​Happy landings,

 

​56RAF_Talisman

He even got shot down and killed flying the Me262 operational on Nov. 8th 1944.

 

 

Hello ZachariasX,

 

If you read the link I provided with my post, I thing you will see that this was whilst flying as part of trials and development unit activity.  This was not a  standard fully operational unit at the time and I think you will find that the Me 262 was still being developed as far as manufacturing was concerned as well.

 

​Happy landings,

 

​56RAF_Talisman

[EAF19_Marsh]

Kurfurst, I would be grateful for an apology from you

 

 

Talisman, it is barely worth it. As his handle indicates, he spend all his time trying to rubbish overthinking that does not show the 109 to be superior in all and every way. He wil shortly argue that 109 K-4 were running ata 2.0 or something (funny that they managed that, but 'clearing wreckage' would have stopped the RAF using 150 octane fuel - see his approach to this?). Nevertheless, I'll chime in on your side as he is up to his usual smoke-screen rubbish

 

I beg to differ, you are merely building up a strawman arguement. Kindly refer back to Post #69 which is the one that actually makes disingenuous statements by holding back certain facts, i.e. strongly implying that the Mk XIV was some kind of main air superiority fighter of the RAF in 1943 that was in full-scale series production, or that is implied that it is somehow unfair that the Mark IX 'from 1943' is in an '1944' scenario.

 

 

I never claimed that, and it appears never did the original poster. Indeed, I have claimed continually in this and other threads that a mid-late IX should be just that.

 

 

I have shown, with as much detailed figures that I had on hand from end of 1943, mid 1944 and also late 1944 that this was far from the case and that neither type was operationally significant in their allaged 'operational' dates, which merely refer to one or two Squadrons 'converting' to the type, and that in practice this was too of an administrative act rather than an actual one, for there were a lack of available planes. 

 

 

This is a straw-man argument; we are not talking about the XIV but about the IX. This is known as obfuscating’ and is therefore ‘disingenuous’

 

You have cherry picked the figures I have posted and clearly indicated to be for May 1944 and which mainly referred to the Mark XIV's low availability, which is obvious to anyone from the context as is the fact the May 1944 obviously does not refer to December 1944 either. And yes, it also list the Mark Vs still present with units, just like it all other Marks like Mark XII that neither operated on the 'Continent' either, especially not in May 1944. Mark Vs did though. I suppose you do not like that Mark Vs are still present in significant numbers with RAF fighter units even in mid-1944? Well, life is tough, but I do not suppose I will have to sugar up to facts just fo

 

 

Again, this is about the IX. Were Mk Vs in service? Yes. Were they engaged in France? No. So are they in any way relevant? No. Were they being used against V-1s? No. So what were they doing in summer 1944 (let alone Autumn / Winter) that has any relevance to the discussion at hand? Nothing. Unless they were in 2TAF, which I believe they were not.

 

Hell, am sure some training units had Mk I and IIs. There were still lots of Hurris all over the place. Relevant to the operational fighter strength for Bodenplatte? No, not really. Introducing irrelevancies in order to try and alter the general flow of a debate: obfuscating

 

 

It was then that you have managed to somehow arrive at a conclusion that refuting claims that are either completely baseless or at the very least highly economical with the truth, with verifiable and well resourced facts, provided to you free of charge in my own free time, is, somehow, disingenuous.

 

 

How on earth do you come to this? Your arguing about irrelevant data regarding the number of Mk Vs on hand in the Spring of ’44 in a thread about IXs and their use in the Autumn of 1944 is disingenuous. You clearly have issues with the term, but you should learn its full meaning.

 

As for the operations in December, repeating the types of aircraft operated by the 2nd TAF is entirely unnecessary, as it is well known and it has been posted already by others.

 

 

So how many Mk Vs were in operation by TAF, out of interest? You saw fit to bring this up earlier, is it now not relevant now? Maybe post the number so we can all see how relevant is your convenient cul-de-sac of an argument.

 

TL:DR

2TAF at start of December 1944 has:

- Mostly IXs, probably at 18lb boost but exactly what ratio unclear

- Some XVIs, virtually identical performance but possibly different configuration to the above

- A shed load of Typhoon IBs, with probable a Sabre IIB engine and 4-bladed prop (Scott's Typhoon Leader pics show virtually all having 4-bladed in his wing)

- 5 squadrons of Tempest Vs Series IIs with Sabre IIBs

- 4 Squadrons of Spitfire XIVs - have to check this but they are certainly a minority

- Other stuff; Mustang Recce?

-

[CIA_Yankee_]

I also hope we get the 25 boost as well, for the sake of balance. The fact of the matter is that within the time period the use of 150 octane fuel was absolutely possible and had already occurred, just not quite in that theatre yet.

 

However, if we're going to start demanding complete "theatre accuracy", then we would have to insist on simulating the complete air superiority enjoyed by the Allies in that time period. Indeed, the only time that this air supremacy wasn't crushingly evident was during the single day of Operation Bodenplatte. So unless our MP missions only focus on recreating that operation over and over again, there would need to be artificial constraints to enforce that superiority (allies always outnumbering axis by ridiculous margin, greatly limiting the number advanced LW airframes, forcing them to fly Gustavs and Antons against Spit IXs and Mustangs, and so on).

 

Also, if we're going to start saying that the allies didn't have 150 octane fuel for their spits in that theatre, then shouldn't we also simulate the scarcity of _any_ fuel for the LW?

 

Naturally, this would generally be less than fun. So I don't see it as egregious to add 150 octane fuel to the Spit IX in the spirit of competitiveness, while allowing the LW to fly their high performance Doras and Kurfursts at will. Because any notion of theatre accuracy should logically result in a very unpleasant experience for the LW pilots, and that's just no fun.

 

Thank you.

[HagarTheHorrible]

It has been alluded to but not really emphasized enough " needs must".

 

Allied air forces had overwhelming air superiority by late 44- early 45. The tools available were sufficient for the task in hand with fighter aircraft allocated to different roles for a variety of reasons, one of which is " we've got them, what are we going to do with them". If the threat from the Luftwaffe had been greater more advanced aircraft, in greater numbers would have been produced and employed and older aircraft would have been phased out quicker or used far more selectively. As it was, given the lack of a threat from the Luftwaffe, with sufficient advanced aircraft to deal with that threat, older, less capable aircraft, that didn't push the limits, with an eye on maintenance and engine life were of greater importance.

 

Had the threat from the Luftwaffe been more significant, as it will be in BoBp, with larger numbers of the most advanced German aircraft without the myriad of performance denting issues the the Luftwaffe faced late in the war then it would be silly to assume that the RAF would have not had a different thought process and different priorities as to aircraft employment and type.

 

BoX is not Europe on Jan 1st 1945, certainly SP and even MP missions can be set up to reflect some of the realities of that period but by and large they (MP) won't. BoBp should have the Spit XIV to reflect that reality (or not) to face off the more even matching of forces flying in BoX.

 

Actual numbers, and availability are an irrelevance in this case. The Spit XIV would have been the RAF aircraft that faced that threat.

Edited November 29, 2017 by HagarTheHorrible

[JV69badatflyski]

Hello talisman,

I have to spit (haha    ) some raw numbers here about themk14 contradicting what you wrote about a full squadron beeing fully operationnal.
If you look at the nulmbers of assigned airframes to active squadrons, you'll see that you need to wait until last week of Feb44 until a sufficient number of airframes is allocated to SQ's:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/160408465@N05/38696374602/in/album-72157687842620982/

and in this second image, you see the numbers per SQ

https://www.flickr.com/photos/160408465@N05/38011456494/in/album-72157687842620982/

In 43 there wasn't even a sufficient number air airframes build to equip a Squadron.
If it's written somewhere , it's simply wishfull thinking or spit whinning.

(Why can't post the pictures here? it's say jpeg extension not allowed )


About the Kommando Nowotny, yes it was an experimental autonomous staffel , but it was also an active group. Germany didn't have the luxury to create processes for new airplanes as they did in the 30 or the begining of war  You got new airplanes, 2 dozens of heavy veterans as pilots et some veteran mechanics from ME and Junkers. it was learning in action, not so much for the pilots, but more for the mechanics as they were  where the pilot came when something happend in the mission.

Kind Regards.

 

[ICDP]

If the Dora and 109-G10 / 109-K4 are on the table, then so should be the XIV.

 

You mean the allies can't cope with the totally worthless Tempest V, P51D, P47D or P38L?  The planeset is very equally balanced apart from the Me262 which is as should be.

 

There had to be a cut off somewhere and we know they will release other aircraft as and when they have the time.

Edited November 29, 2017 by ICDP

[CIA_Yankee_]

It has been alluded to but not really emphasized enough " needs must".

 

Allied air forces had overwhelming air superiority by late 44- early 45. The tools available were sufficient for the task in hand with fighter aircraft allocated to different roles for a variety of reasons, one of which is " we've got them, what are we going to do with them". If the threat from the Luftwaffe had been greater more advanced aircraft, in greater numbers would have been produced and employed and older aircraft would have been phased out quicker or used far more selectively. As it was, given the lack of a threat from the Luftwaffe, with sufficient advanced aircraft to deal with that threat, older, less capable aircraft, that didn't push the limits, with an eye on maintenance and engine life were of greater importance.

 

Had the threat from the Luftwaffe been more significant, as it will be in BoBp, with larger numbers of the most advanced German aircraft without the myriad of performance denting issues the the Luftwaffe faced late in the war then it would be silly to assume that the RAF would have not had a different thought process and different priorities as to aircraft employment and type.

 

BoX is not Europe on Jan 1st 1945, certainly SP and even MP missions can be set up to reflect some of the realities of that period but by and large they (MP) won't. BoBp should have the Spit XIV to reflect that reality (or not) to face off the more even matching of forces flying in BoX.

 

Actual numbers, and availability are an irrelevance in this case. The Spit XIV would have been the RAF aircraft that faced that threat.

 

Well said.

 

Though to be fair, I don't think the XIV is a must... allies has plenty of valid choices too, but having 150 octane fuel for the Spit IX should be an option, for the very reasons you listed. While the XIV would be nice, it's a question of manpower and time at this point: the devs can apparently easily turn the V into a IX, whereas the XIV requires significantly more work that is better spent on getting us brand new A/Cs. A Spit IX with +25 boost should be competitive enough for our needs, when combined with the american birds and the Tempest.

[Dakpilot]

Actually it did not take much time to clear the RAF fields and runways of 190 and 109 debri, between the large amount of lend lease Caterpillar D7 and larger D8 bulldozer's a lot of the work was done by the RAF's own prime heavy lifters, the AEC Matador and venerable Scammell Obfusicator, itself able to run on 150 octane fuel and thus possible to clear the wrecks very quickly

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Kurfurst]

***SNIPPED drawn-out rant and the full display of Marsh's two-word vocabulary which basically revolves around the false assumption that repeated ad hominems makes up for a proper arguement ***

 

Right, so you still think that posting facts is somehow rubbish, disingenuous etc. and now also obfuscating. Well, I am afraid that you are the only one that feels so confused and visibly enraged that a piece of information on the number of Mk Vs, Mk IXs and Mk XIIs and Mark XVIs in front line service in 1944 is you, and I am also afraid that the sole reason to that is to be found in you and you only.

 

Anyway, I am pleased that despite the obfuscating rants and yet at the same time, zero facts from you we have now firmly established that the Spitfire XIV DID NOT enter 'full operational service' in December 1943 at all, despite claimed by Talisman otherwise, and in fact there weren't many around even in the end of 1944 either. Similarly, I am happy that we have also firmly established that wishful thoughts that the Mk IXLF type as being in 'full operational service' by early 1943, are, well, just that, wishful thoughts. In fact both of these aircraft came much later and the handful of aircraft around were doing little more than the usual operational trials of a new type.

 

And while I would love to see more aircraft, including the XIV (and the Typhoon ), I think the development team made the correct choice to concentrate on the planes such as the Mark IX that were actually there and present in considerable numbers, fighting historically over the Ardennes forest instead of planes that were slowly arriving to the frontlines in insignificant, penny packet numbers, instead of giving in to the whiners who always cry for bigger boosts and the best versions or just pure fantasy aircraft for the period, like +25 lbs Mk IXLFs, of which there were precisely zero around during Bodenplatte and their presence would be completely ahistorical. The planeset looks quite balanced in any case, and in fact, probably no better choices could have been made.

Edited November 30, 2017 by VO101Kurfurst

[CIA_Yankee_]

And while I would love to see more aircraft, including the XIV (and the Typhoon), I think the development team made the correct choice to concentrate on the planes that were actually there and present in considerable numbers, fighting historically over the Ardennes forest instead of planes that were slowly arriving to the frontlines in insignificant, penny packet numbers or those that are just pure fantasy for the period, like +25 lbs Mk IXLFs, of which there were precisely zero around during Bodenplatte and their presence would be completely ahistorical. The planeset looks quite balanced in any case, and in fact, probably no better choices could have been made.

 

Certainly, historical accuracy is a laudable goal. But if we want to be completely accurate, wouldn't the sim also have to somehow replicate the impacts of complete allied air superiority in that time period (the only time where it even came close to being challenged was the 1 day of Operation Bodenplatte... and even THAT was only achieved by hoarding their fuel and hardware for one last hail mary offensive)? 

 

Somehow I don't think it would be much fun for the LW player if a 4-to-1 player advantage for the allies was enforced, or accurate fuel restrictions implemented for the LW. And if THOSE don't need to be simulated, I'm not sure why the +25 Spit IXs should not be made available. In short, any semblance of parity in the new theatre, with the LW getting to fly their top-level hardware in a fair match against the allies is ITSELF completely ahistorical. 

 

Given this, asking for a +25 Spit IX is perfectly reasonable, since the hardware did exist and the capability was there.To deny it in the name of historical accuracy for that theatre logically leads to further restrictions that would naturally be far less enjoyable for the LW players, and nobody wants that. 

 

So let's let the LW players have their great rides, with all the fuel they want, flying against fair odds. And give the Spitfire fans their +25 boosts. That way everyone can have the most fun.

Edited November 30, 2017 by Yankee_

[Kurfurst]

You mean the allies can't cope with the totally worthless Tempest V, P51D, P47D or P38L?  The planeset is very equally balanced apart from the Me262 which is as should be.

 

There had to be a cut off somewhere and we know they will release other aircraft as and when they have the time.

 

Agreed. If I look at the planeset, there is a possibility for a lot of well balanced fights, with 3 distinct 'classes'

 

Stratostphere group P-51, P-47, P-38, 109K (planes with great high altitude performance)

 

Mudmovers Tempest, Fw 190D-9 (planes with terrific low altitute performance but lacking at higher altitudes)

 

Old-boys league: Spitfire IXLF, 109G-14, FW 190A-8 (planes with about 400 mph top speed, but no longer top of the line)

 

I think they will do just fine. They will all have distinct advantages and some of them could compete in several 'leagues'.

Edited November 30, 2017 by VO101Kurfurst

[Bullets]

I bet Kurfurst is a Rick and Morty fan 

[Kurfurst]

Indeed, LOL. 

[Bullets]

[=RvE=SirScorpion]

Agreed. If I look at the planeset, there is a possibility for a lot of well balanced fights, with 3 distinct 'classes'

 

Stratostphere group P-51, P-47, P-38, 109K (planes with great high altitude performance)

 

Mudmovers Tempest, Fw 190D-9 (planes with terrific low altitute performance but lacking at higher altitudes)

 

Old-boys league: Spitfire IXLF, 109G-14, FW 190A-8 (planes with about 400 mph top speed, but no longer top of the line)

 

I think they will do just fine. They will all have distinct advantages and some of them could compete in several 'leagues'.

 

 

You can not argue for historical accuracy then argue for balance in the same breath, using your own argument basically means for historical accuracy half 90% of the LW pilots online need to be simulated as rookies and allies get a 10:1 slot ratio. 

 

The only argument at this moment is will it sell, will it bring more players to game and keep them interested for longer time. Historical sets of aircraft over a 1 day operation is not really a long term investment.

 

Historical accuracy or balance is down to the mission maker, the aircraft need to be versatile enough to be able to change possible time lines by modfications and other means depending on what the mission maker wants to get.  

Edited November 30, 2017 by SirScorpion

[Bullets]

The way I see it.. Whats fair, just, accurate & balanced is either a XIV or a IX with all the goodies 

Edited November 30, 2017 by Bullets

[BlitzPig_EL]

I so enjoy (NOT) the pre-release shenanigans of seeking to obtain the advantage for your particular "side" in the online arena.

 

It's been standard procedure since I started with flight sims so long ago.  It makes for good forum comedy, but really guys, after nearly two decades, it's getting pretty old.

 

I know you won't stop it, so please do carry on with your quest to rewrite history in your own vision.

 

Just watch out for those windmills...

[ShamrockOneFive]

I so enjoy (NOT) the pre-release shenanigans of seeking to obtain the advantage for your particular "side" in the online arena.

 

It's been standard procedure since I started with flight sims so long ago.  It makes for good forum comedy, but really guys, after nearly two decades, it's getting pretty old.

 

I know you won't stop it, so please do carry on with your quest to rewrite history in your own vision.

 

Just watch out for those windmills...

 

I am having some deja vue for sure. I love that people are excited and some of the technical discussion is wonderful to dig up and have but there is also that underlying jockeying for position multiplayer competitiveness that turns things a bit ugly.

 

Glad we've got a good planeset, excited to see what the devs can do with the Spitfire IX. I hope and am fairly confident they will do it justice and give us what features they can cram in there. Should be exciting!

[=RvE=Windmills]

 

 

Just watch out for those windmills...

 

We actually also agree that the 25lbs would be nice to have as a modification.

[Talisman]

Hello talisman,

 

I have to spit (haha    ) some raw numbers here about themk14 contradicting what you wrote about a full squadron beeing fully operationnal.

If you look at the nulmbers of assigned airframes to active squadrons, you'll see that you need to wait until last week of Feb44 until a sufficient number of airframes is allocated to SQ's:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/160408465@N05/38696374602/in/album-72157687842620982/

 

and in this second image, you see the numbers per SQ

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/160408465@N05/38011456494/in/album-72157687842620982/

 

In 43 there wasn't even a sufficient number air airframes build to equip a Squadron.

If it's written somewhere , it's simply wishfull thinking or spit whinning.

 

(Why can't post the pictures here? it's say jpeg extension not allowed )

 

 

About the Kommando Nowotny, yes it was an experimental autonomous staffel , but it was also an active group. Germany didn't have the luxury to create processes for new airplanes as they did in the 30 or the begining of war  You got new airplanes, 2 dozens of heavy veterans as pilots et some veteran mechanics from ME and Junkers. it was learning in action, not so much for the pilots, but more for the mechanics as they were  where the pilot came when something happend in the mission.

 

Kind Regards.

 

 

 

Hi,

 

Please, please read the actual words that I wrote very carefully and you will see that there is no contradiction regarding what I said about the introduction of the Spit Mk XIV.  I did not use the words that you have credited to me above.  Thank you.

 

Also, below is an extract from http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit14v109.html

 

Brief Operational History

The first production Spitfire XIV was delivered in late October, 1943. No. 610 (County of Chester) Squadron was the first squadron to convert to Spitfire XIVs, re-equipment commencing on 4 January 1944 with the Squadron's move to Exeter. ¹  610 Squadron’s first operational sorties with their XIVs occurred on 8 January 1944. Spring brought moves to Culmhead, Bolt Head, and Harrowbeer. 91 Squadron began trading in their Spitfire XIIs for XIVs on the last day of February 1944 when they moved to Castle Camps. They flew operations with the XIVs on 12 March 1944, moving to Drem that month, then West Malling in April. 322 (Dutch) Squadron began re-equipping with Spitfire XIVs in mid March at Acklington, with the first operational flying coming after the move to Hartford Bridge in April. At this time 91 and 322 Squadrons comprised 24 Wing, 2nd TAF led by Wing Commander Bobby Oxspring. Spring operations took the form of sweeps, patrols, scrambles, escorts etc. ^{2  3  4}   After participating in Operation Overlord, the successful landings in Normandy, the Spitfire XIV Squadrons were engaged in anti-diver duties for approximately two months. On 9 August 1944 Nos. 91 and 322 delivered their Spitfires XIVs to 350 (Belgian) and 402 (Winnipeg Bear) Squadrons at Hawkinge, while No. 130 (Punjab) Squadron also converted to Spitfire XIVs that month at Lympne. By mid August the V-1 diver threat had waned and the Spitfire XIV Squadrons went back to offensive operations over the continent. ^{5  6  7  8}

 

 

 

And some more reports:

 

Mix of anti-diver (V1) and fighter sweeps shows that although used for anti-diver activity it was not exclusive anti-diver work and they did other types of work in between.  They flew sweeps over the European continent.

 

 

Edited November 30, 2017 by 56RAF_Talisman

[HBPencil]

Gentlemen, please, the topic of this thread is in the title. Pretty much anything to do with the Spitfire MkV (except in how it will affect the modelling of the IX in-game), MkXIV and whatever you think about each other is irrelevant to the discussion of the MkIX around the time of Bodenplatte and how it will relate to BoBP. Please stay on topic or go start a new thread if there's something else you'd rather argue about rather than derailing my thread.

 

Cheers,

HB

Edited November 30, 2017 by HBPencil

[HagarTheHorrible]

An IX with +25Ib boost should be included in Bp as a mod' aithough I can't realistically see anyone not opting for it if it's available so an IX with +18lb boost is a little pointless.

 

While I agree that 25lb boost Spitfires weren't operating from Holland with 2Taf, at least in appreciable numbers, or the strict geographical area of Bodenplatte, they were available in theatre (Europe) and not just as some odd, rare as hens teeth, quirk. If the Spitfire IX is to be included as the sole version available ( which makes sense from a developers point of view and which is why they are doing it anyway) then it has to do two things, first it has to represent one of the major aircraft present but secondly it has to cover for the lack of the Mk XIV.

 

Bodeenplatte will not be fought as an endless series of raids and scrambles, or will the battles be limited by the considerations of the time. If the Spitfire is to do anything other than languish in the stable then it needs to be able to do more than carry out armed recess of enemy positions. While it might have been effective in that role in 44/45 there is precious little reward to be had from it in BoX, you may as well be throwing kippers at the enemy A.I for all the effect it has on their combat effectiveness or moral, instead the Spit WILL be used as a fighter on more or less equal terms with the Luftwaffe, a situation which isn't historical or for which the 18lb boost Spit was best equipped.

 

Different situations would have lead to different priorities over aircraft performance and allocation.

 

To sum up my main argument revolves around two points ( which I agree could be better put, but my bath is starting to get cold), first it has to gap fill for the Mk XIV and secondly it won't be used for the same role as it was in 2Taf in Bp.

[ICDP]

There seems to be a mindset prevailing that somehow the Spitfire Mk IX in BoBo is pointless without +25lb boost.  Or that the +18lbs Spitfire is somehow disadvantaged against contemporary opponents.

 

Spit IX vs 190A8 and 109G14.  I would put a +18lb Spitfire Mk IX ahead of both of those opponents in most respects 1 v 1.

[Rolling_Thunder]

There seems to be a mindset prevailing that somehow the Spitfire Mk IX in BoBo is pointless without +25lb boost.  Or that the +18lbs Spitfire is somehow disadvantaged against contemporary opponents.

 

Spit IX vs 190A8 and 109G14.  I would put a +18lb Spitfire Mk IX ahead of both of those opponents in most respects 1 v 1.

Yeah but how many folk will be flying the a8 or g14 when there are k4 and d9s available?

[Bullets]

There seems to be a mindset prevailing that somehow the Spitfire Mk IX in BoBo is pointless without +25lb boost.  Or that the +18lbs Spitfire is somehow disadvantaged against contemporary opponents.

 

Spit IX vs 190A8 and 109G14.  I would put a +18lb Spitfire Mk IX ahead of both of those opponents in most respects 1 v 1.

 

I am sorry but I have to disagree with you. Any blue pilot (in either an A8 or G14) worth his salt should never lose a 1v1 against a IX. Sure the spit is a great turn fighter and would win against anything the blues have to throw at it in that regard however no blue pilot should be turn and burning with a spitfire..... EDIT: I assume both are faster and I bet both climb better too, a blue pilot  should have no problem dispatching a lone spitfire as long as he plays to his aircraft's strengths. 

Edited December 2, 2017 by Bullets

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

Spit IX vs 190A8 and 109G14.  I would put a +18lb Spitfire Mk IX ahead of both of those opponents in most respects 1 v 1.

 

The Spit LF IX at 18 boost would have the climbrate advantage against the A-8, but it would still be less than the G-14, also a bit slower than both the A-8 and G-14 with MW50 at sea level for what I saw. At altitude it would have similar speed to the regular G-14 with MW 50 but slower than the G-14/AS (around half the G-14s in Bodenplatte had the AS engine).

 

A similar comparison could be the current Spit mk Vb with Merlin 46 engine at +16 boost vs the F-4 at 1.42 ata I guess.

Edited December 2, 2017 by -=PHX=-SuperEtendard

[Jade_Monkey]

Does the IX come with more 20mm ammo? The Vb ammo is too low for a long sortie.

 

I think i found the answer, ammo doubled to 120 rounds per gun.

Edited December 2, 2017 by Jade_Monkey

[ShamrockOneFive]

Yeah but how many folk will be flying the a8 or g14 when there are k4 and d9s available?

That's the multiplayer mindset. In single player all of these aircraft matter for historical reasons and they do come with advantages of their own. The A-8 is also likely an F-8 with the appropriate extra armor/bomb combinations. The D-9 may or may not come with a ground attack option as an example. The K-4 is also probably the least pleasant to fly and some may prefer the G-14.

 

Does the IX come with more 20mm ammo? The Vb ammo is too low for a long sortie.

 

I think i found the answer, ammo doubled to 120 rounds per gun.

Yep they were able to double the ammo capacity when they were able to go from the drum magazine to belt fed. Apparently that took some doing.

[HagarTheHorrible]

There seems to be a mindset prevailing that somehow the Spitfire Mk IX in BoBo is pointless without +25lb boost.  Or that the +18lbs Spitfire is somehow disadvantaged against contemporary opponents.

 

Spit IX vs 190A8 and 109G14.  I would put a +18lb Spitfire Mk IX ahead of both of those opponents in most respects 1 v 1.

 

The Spitfire,+25lb boost isn't some wonder weapon ( as some might imagine). If the Luftwaffe had been more potent at this stage of the war, been present in larger numbers and the Spitfire IX had been a first tier principle fighter of the RAF then it would have received more attention with regards to maximizing it's potential. Each nation sort to give their pilots an advantage, often this was a constant too and fro incremental progression. With a dwindling fighter opposition and more powerful Griffon engined Spitfires coming to the fore the need to get the absolute most raw performance from the aging Merlin was less of a concern, trumped by reliability, maintenance , supply chain considerations, procurement and training.

 

BoBp will not be fought on the same terms or conditions as those pertaining to Jan 45, Spitfires IX's will not be used for the same purpose ( by the majority) as they were by 2Taf, instead they will be used as fighters, after all this is a FLIGHT/ FIGHT sim. Given the history of fighter development during the Second World War it would be strange indeed to imagine, that given a more challenging set of circumstances, either side wouldn't have ensured that their primary fighter was the most capable it could possibly be.

 

Obviously, all this is moot, if a Spitfire XIV was available in Bp because IT would have been the Spitfire that met the challenge of increased Luftwaffe potency and numbers. The IX could then go back to doing what it was doing in Jan 45 which was beating up the German army and support infrastructure, a job that really didn't require cutting edge performance. If however the IX was the principle, best performing fighter , primarily charged with taking on hordes of equally, or more capable, German fighters ( as it will in Bp) it would have, without a dought,been given it's best performance.