Flying Circus, lessons learned

[HagarTheHorrible]

What, if anything, do you think BoX will add to what was RoF ?

 

I'm thinking rather less the graphics enhancements, although I think ( for those that have headsets) the addition of a VR capability will be central, if for no other reason than it will make the art of shooting through iron sights a skill rather than an exercise in point and shoot.

 

Instead, I'm thinking more about what has been learned over the last few years with regard to implementing flight dynamics and improvements to the way the game handles different aspects of flight, damage, engine management and also balancing out some potential hot rod elements that could be exploited or abused.

 

Will we just see RoF with some pretty graphical updates ( maybe that would be enough) or, will we get a radically new experience (VR not withstanding) ?

[LukeFF]

Not quite sure what the speculation is all about, as Jason has made it pretty clear what is going to be involved with FC.

[Feathered_IV]

I thought details were still pretty sketchy.  There was the list of aircraft, VR and a smallish map, but not much else.  Would the AI get a revamp for example?  Or the pilot figures? 

[HagarTheHorrible]

I think we can take it as read that the graphics and models will be brought up to BoX standards.

 

Given that WW1 air combat will particularly suit VR it would be nice if the developers, and I imagine they are a new group operating under the auspices of the BoX team, I hope they will prioritize a certain amount of effort in that direction. FC might be worth buying on that basis alone if players still have access to their original RoF stable.

 

I think it will be particularly interesting to see what differences the experience and engine development of BoX will make to the FM's and DM's and being able to compare one with the other.

Edited November 19, 2017 by HagarTheHorrible

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

It will be nice to get things in the new engine. I especially appreciate the performance improvements. 

[CanadaOne]

Not sure if it has been addressed, but I hope the FC aircraft are available on the Kuban map.

 

Flying around the mountains in an old biplane would be a ton of fun.

[=WH=PangolinWranglin]

The fact that all of the games are plugging into the same engine is what excites me the most. I think that it will make development easier, and improve performance. Also we'll be able to fly WWI planes against 262s so that's always nice. 

Edited November 19, 2017 by =VOE=PangolinWranglin

[Uufflakke]

Not sure if it has been addressed, but I hope the FC aircraft are available on the Kuban map.

 

Flying around the mountains in an old biplane would be a ton of fun.

 

Not WWI related but If everything goes well it might come true with the Po-2.

 

And perhaps later on the I-153 might see daylight too. Who knows...

 

[SeaW0lf]

There are some lessons learned, such as tweak the flight models taking into acocunt relative performance other than rely solely on a windsock or unreliable data. This can prevent some mistakes that lingered for years and ultimately did not end well. Regarding graphics, ROF is pretty good already, whith some awesome damage model effects. But they should to import ROF's reflection, wich is lacking in BOX in general. It is common to cruise at 3k in ROF and see wings lighting up down the deck -- a real life treat that gave ROF a special feeling -- which does not seem to happen in BOX in general. The recent shadows improved BOX a great deal, but they need to work on reflection to match what we already have in ROF, because this affects game play a great deal (proper object visibility). On the flip side of graphics (cosmetics), fly on the Kuban map will be cool.

 

Ah, I don't think that ambient flak has a reason to be anymore on this day an age. If they are really attached to it they should give us the option to disable it so that full real servers can work properly with active flak batteries, which back then was an active part of the action and they even used it to communicate with pilots in the air.

[Torso]

ROF is pretty good already, whith some awesome damage model effects. But they should to import ROF's reflection, wich is lacking in BOX in general. It is common to cruise at 3k in ROF and see wings lighting up down the deck -- a real life treat that gave ROF a special feeling -- which does not seem to happen in BOX in general. The recent shadows improved BOX a great deal, but they need to work on reflection to match what we already have in ROF, because this affects game play a great deal (proper object visibility). 

 

 

Completely agree with you on this. RoF actually has some things that it can bring to the BoX party that it is lacking currently. It is not just a leach sucking the BoX engine positives..lol. It can actually add to it to improve it as well if they in fact are able to incorporate those into the BoX engine.

 

I hope they can. RoF reflections are awesome and would be sad to see them have to be dropped in BoX engine. Same with the damage effects. Just  a couple of the amazing aspects of the sim that still shine bright to this day.

Edited November 19, 2017 by Torso

[HagarTheHorrible]

I wonder if the aircraft will recieve completely reworked FM's or whether they will just be tweaked and updated to account for added or finer grained calculations. What extra FM refining is there in BoX that isn't in RoF, are they the same calculations just but just more complex or are different elements, not available in the first series, taken into account ?

 

While damage modeling was by no means bad or indifferent it still left a lot to be desired, with some fishy aircraft being glass winged ( yes, I know it's a mammal) while others could lose an entire wing surface without a care in the world.

[SeaW0lf]

While damage modeling was by no means bad or indifferent it still left a lot to be desired, with some fishy aircraft being glass winged ( yes, I know it's a mammal) while others could lose an entire wing surface without a care in the world.

 

I meant / said damage effects, not models. They sure can improve on damage models, such as the bad sniping shots that disabled the engine in almost every front pass or long shots from far away. Perhaps they have better DM boxes in Il-2.

Edited November 19, 2017 by SeaW0lf

[BlznSaddles]

The fact that all of the games are plugging into the same engine is what excites me the most. I think that it will make development easier, and improve performance. Also we'll be able to fly WWI planes against 262s so that's always nice. 

 

 

We need a server with 100 biplanes VS 1 262... if you kill the 262 you get to spawn in it next round.

[HagarTheHorrible]

I meant / said damage effects, not models. They sure can improve on damage models, such as the bad sniping shots that disabled the engine in almost every front pass or long shots from far away. Perhaps they have better DM boxes in Il-2.

As an avid VR player I'm really looking forward to the challenges of shooting using the iron sights, this will quite possibly mitigate against long range sniping ( for VR players at least) as there is far more room for error because your head isn't locked in the perfect sighting picture position. I still remember, when several aircraft first appeared, they had no ring and bead sight, you just used an appropriate bit of bracing wire to line up shots, making a bit of a mockery of the whole shooting side of things.

We need a server with 100 biplanes VS 1 262... if you kill the 262 you get to spawn in it next round.

I suspect the 262 would have a harder time of it than you might imagine.

[SeaW0lf]

As an avid VR player I'm really looking forward to the challenges of shooting using the iron sights, this will quite possibly mitigate against long range sniping ( for VR players at least) as there is far more room for error because your head isn't locked in the perfect sighting picture position. I still remember, when several aircraft first appeared, they had no ring and bead sight, you just used an appropriate bit of bracing wire to line up shots, making a bit of a mockery of the whole shooting side of things.

 

I don't know the intricacies of sights, but I imagine people would get used to aim with bracing wires or any other point of reference (I never played VR though). I recall using the bracing wires, but can't recall much about it. I suspect it has little to do with aiming, but more about DM boxes. And the bullets have no dispersion (we see gunners shooting you from below and the bullet come in smoking in a straight angle from distances of 500+ yards. These things could improve with a distance / hit algorithm (or whatever they do to simulated it), but only knowing how the DM boxes and bullets work in BOX to have an idea. Gunners in BOX also have sniping shots, so I am not sure what to expect from the new DM engine. But I imagine the hit boxes will be improved a great deal, which is welcomed.

[HagarTheHorrible]

I don't know the intricacies of sights, but I imagine people would get used to aim with bracing wires or any other point of reference (I never played VR though). I recall using the bracing wires, but can't recall much about it. I suspect it has little to do with aiming, but more about DM boxes. And the bullets have no dispersion (we see gunners shooting you from below and the bullet come in smoking in a straight angle from distances of 500+ yards. These things could improve with a distance / hit algorithm (or whatever they do to simulated it), but only knowing how the DM boxes and bullets work in BOX to have an idea. Gunners in BOX also have sniping shots, so I am not sure what to expect from the new DM engine. But I imagine the hit boxes will be improved a great deal, which is welcomed.

 

Shooting games in VR are real fun.  You don't just point the gun (handguns are best at the moment) in the direction, you have to aim properly down the sights to have any hope of success 

 

Flying Circus might be well timed to coincide with the next generation of VR HMD's coming out which might be a big positive for both.

[SeaW0lf]

Flying Circus might be well timed to coincide with the next generation of VR HMD's coming out which might be a big positive for both.

 

I gotta check that because I'm considering an ultrawide 34" monitor (in the range of U$1K), but a VR setting is cheaper and I would have more leeway for a top card.

[JG1_Butzzell]

S! All

 

one of the BIGGEST things that BoX brings o the table is all the things that the BoX mission editor can do that the RoF mission editor can not.

 

Missions will be very different.

[Feathered_IV]

I’d like to see some smaller improvements. Like black and white Archie puffs depending on which nation is firing. But also greater improvements, like a more varied AI behavior. The left turn, half-roll and diving turn as soon as you entered an enemies bubble was what eventually caused me to leave RoF behind.

[Guest deleted@50488]

Hagar,

 

thx for bringing the discussion on this interesting theme. 

 

I was wondering exactly the same, since I did buy pretty much all stuff for RoF after I bought IL2 BoS, but eventually gave up on playing it... 

 

I wonder if this "RoFX" is goung to get revised flight dynamics, based on the further cooperation of 1C and 777, and the experience gained with the development of the BoX series ...

[Gambit21]

S! All

 

one of the BIGGEST things that BoX brings o the table is all the things that the BoX mission editor can do that the RoF mission editor can not.

 

Missions will be very different.

It's more or less the same editor logic isn't it?

I never built missions in RoF.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

Mr Pertovich is working on subsystem to import ROF fms to Sturmovik without need to redo it for new way WW2 are made. I hope for better DM model - especially wing structure(supports,struts,ribs, canvas) not modeld as whole wing hit box etc ),control cables, propeller and proper engine variation aü for late German scouts.

Edited November 20, 2017 by 307_Tomcat

[HagarTheHorrible]

It was my impression from the live chat but, I may very well be wrong, that Flying Circus will primarily, beyond introducing WW1 aircraft to the BoX world, be a cosmetic makeover rather than coming with a reworking of FM or DM modules.

 

If that is the case, it is a shame, but we have to try and think of the positives rather than dwel on what might have been, accept it as it is and be happy that it gives us, at least, the opportunity to have a WW1 aircraft in a still developing sim engine, rather than an increasingly geriatric one, with all the bells, graphical whistles, new maps and all that that brings to the table. Not forgetting that the upgrade will also introduce VR which might be worth the entry fee alone.

Edited November 20, 2017 by HagarTheHorrible

[dburne]

It was my impression from the live chat but, I may very well be wrong, that Flying Circus will primarily, beyond introducing WW1 aircraft to the BoX world, be a cosmetic makeover rather than coming with a reworking of FM or DM modules.

 

If that is the case, it is a shame, but we have to try and think of the positives rather than dwel on what might have been, accept it as it is and be happy that it gives us, at least, the opportunity to have a WW1 aircraft in a still developing sim engine with all the bells, graphical whistles, new maps and all that that brings to the table. Not forgetting that the upgrade will also introduce VR which might be worth the entry fee alone.

 

It will be worth the fee to me for sure, just to get it in VR.

[SeaW0lf]

Mr Pertovich is working on subsystem to import ROF fms to Sturmovik without need to redo it for new way WW2 are made.

 

They will have to tweak the flight models. Especially the Camel is broken after the last patch (it was never my plane) -- whatever they did to her flight model, now she can't climb. They can't release an aircraft that they broke. They did nothing back then because ROF was at the end of its life and they just watched us deal with it. And they can't only tweak her, because there are others that will be affected. And when they release the Tripe -- which they also broke in tandem because she shares the same engine with the Camel -- she can't be slower and climb worse than the Albatros D.III, which she dominated in 1917. And so on.

 

It is a simulator and it is a new module, so IMHO they need to make a relative performance chart for speed and climb of the whole series before the release to avoid being stuck later on with abnormalities that will cause a domino effect. If the current BOX engine allows more flexibility with the flight models they should make it right this time. How can they do otherwise?

[J2_Trupobaw]

Dx11 and 64bit engine, better performance and visuals, rendering range.
Skins that don't disappear for a sec when you look at plane (side effect of 64 bit thing).

Better AI.
Engine variants as field mods. Devs can add new engines as mods to existing WW1 plane later without releasing new plane.

Reuniting the communities. In particular with parts of RoF community who went BoS.

Updates, bug fixes, FMs revisions, access to devs.
Leaving behind RoF MP bugs already fixed in BoX.
 Opportunity to bicker about WW1s FMs at new forum  .

Edited November 20, 2017 by LsV_Trupobaw

[Blitzen]

I've flown RoF since the very beginning, being a big WW1 flight sim fan, but sice CloD & esp BoX have flown it less and less. The main reason has been its background & maps which have always had a sort of soft Disney cartoon look. If Flying Circus incorporate the look of the landscape & clouds of BoX I'll go back & fly it a lot more...but even more so which is the introduction of VR, which is simply unbelievable in its current BoX application. Its not perfect ( clarity of distant objects is still an issue,) but it will only get better & better. Sitting in an open cockpit with the ability to view the world in a 360 way will simply be wonderful! 

[Monostripezebra]

Having a bit graphics and physics refined would be great. RoF is still an awesome game, on it´s own. And WW1 fights are a lot more VR-ready then anything else, because of close distance fighting.

 

In RoF, there was, (attention: personal oppinon) a bit of heterogenity in how well the flight modeling and damagemodeling worked, and the proposed planeset is actually pretty solid in that: THose planes as they are now, can give interesting fights in the current RoF.

However, Bombers and mission planes are a bit overlooked in the proposed starting set, and actually one of the best RoF models is the Re8.. So seeing that, and the DFW would make a lot of sense to me. Also, the Fe2b is awesome and has a very long serice time in the war, it fits all kinds of scenarios... So I can only hopw for a full round up of refurbished planes.

 

You will see, that with the close distances, WW1 fighting can be faster and more dynamic then the fast WW2 fighters because the angular changes per time between the planes are actually mathematically greater.

[JG1_Butzzell]

It's more or less the same editor logic isn't it?

I never built missions in RoF.

S!

 

The BOX ME has many improved features and new capabilities.  A vast improvement from RoF.

[Avimimus]

 

Dx11 and 64bit engine, better performance and visuals, rendering range.

Skins that don't disappear for a sec when you look at plane (side effect of 64 bit thing).

Better AI.

Engine variants as field mods. Devs can add new engines as mods to existing WW1 plane later without releasing new plane.

Reuniting the communities. In particular with parts of RoF community who went BoS.

Updates, bug fixes, FMs revisions, access to devs.

Leaving behind RoF MP bugs already fixed in BoX.

 Opportunity to bicker about WW1s FMs at new forum  .

 

 

The engine variants is really important for game balance:

https://riseofflight.com/forum/topic/32263-comprehensive-list-engine-variants-existing-aircraft/?hl=%2Bavimimus+%2Bengine+%2Bvariants&do=findComment&comment=457418

 

I'm mainly looking forward to updated flight models (less twitchy?) and an AI which is less likely to crash into the ground (hopefully benefiting from the BoK improvements).

[Lusekofte]

I will watch this pack closely, I loved the seaplanes and heavies in ROF, if I got some kind of signals they will be added as well. I buy it. I am rubbish flying those fighter kites.

However I might do better in this engine, since TrackIr is working better compared to ROF for me. Or I will have a new PC by then.

[Gambit21]

S!

 

The BOX ME has many improved features and new capabilities.  A vast improvement from RoF.

 

Good to know...thanks!

[Luftschiff]

The thing I am looking forward to the LEAST is the fact we'll have to endure tons and tons of bickering about FM's for the canvas kites too, again. If there was one blessing that came of RoF slowly dying off it was the forum wars dying off as well.

On a more serious note - I see a lot of you complaining about the damage model, which confuses me - I've always considered RoF's DM to be absolutely top-notch, and - barring engine damage, superior to BoX in most ways. Perhaps that is a function of being picked apart by MG's being more gradual than taking a 23mm to the tail-section, but even so I've actually been concerned about losing the amazing damage physics when they port it to the new engine - can anyone please educate me as to what improvements they'd like from a new DM?

[VesseL]

When i will get my VR i will buy the Flying Circus. And i would expect the same quality as in BOX, craphic and dm and fm or i wont fly it much. Im more WW2 guy, but i woul imagine the WW1 would be great fun  using VR. The close range turning. It would be really fun if the in-game pilot head would follow the players head, so you could see what hes thinking.

[SeaW0lf]

The thing I am looking forward to the LEAST is the fact we'll have to endure tons and tons of bickering about FM's for the canvas kites too, again.

 

That is inevitable and part of the process of getting better. Otherwise we would be flying on wobbly 109s to this day, the 190 would not get a revision (I don't fly neither of them) and this last patch that made the planes behave much more like they should would never had happened. It is a matter of good sense and to have an unbiased approach. Some people behave like soccer fans, but this is another issue altogether that has nothing to do with flight models. The soccer fans are a pain, I agree, but what can we do... Life goes on.

Edited November 20, 2017 by SeaW0lf

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

The thing I am looking forward to the LEAST is the fact we'll have to endure tons and tons of bickering about FM's for the canvas kites too, again. If there was one blessing that came of RoF slowly dying off it was the forum wars dying off as well.

On a more serious note - I see a lot of you complaining about the damage model, which confuses me - I've always considered RoF's DM to be absolutely top-notch, and - barring engine damage, superior to BoX in most ways. Perhaps that is a function of being picked apart by MG's being more gradual than taking a 23mm to the tail-section, but even so I've actually been concerned about losing the amazing damage physics when they port it to the new engine - can anyone please educate me as to what improvements they'd like from a new DM?

Canvas on wing for sure, when enough bullets hit it (instead should fly throw) ,finally whole wing structure collapse. This happened to be great problem when they introduce (after researching gun dispersion for BOS guns) improved gunnery option which when enabled (as it should be because it's more realistic) torn wings of in no time and only with proper mod (reduced lethality to wings) works perfectly but only on mods on mode.

[Field-Ops]

One technical advancement I'd like to see is the possibility of fabric to rip away. Say a series of holes close enough together roughly form a circle then the patch can slowly tear away and flap in the wind, losing lift and creating drag.