So, let's talk jets.

[BlitzPig_EL]

The wing sweep was a CG correction issue and had no direct impact on the F-86 or anything else

 

Bingo.   Waiting with baited breath for the first "262 went supersonic!!!!" post.  

 

The 262 was amazing by 1940's standards, but like many "firsts" it was quickly overtaken by better designs, even current era ones, the P80 Shooting Star being the best of the WW2 jet designs.

[r153]

Bingo.   Waiting with baited breath for the first "262 went supersonic!!!!" post.  

 

The 262 was amazing by 1940's standards, but like many "firsts" it was quickly overtaken by better designs, even current era ones, the P80 Shooting Star being the best of the WW2 jet designs.

 

262 had no roll rate ,  no point flying at high speed without one 

[Field-Ops]

262 had no roll rate ,  no point flying at high speed without one 

I'm not even sure what you mean by that. The ailerons didnt lock up to the point of being unresponsive

[r153]

I'm not even sure what you mean by that. The ailerons didnt lock up to the point of being unresponsive

 

Late war design allowed for high speed fighters  190 , P 47 , p51  to allow fighters to snap roll and change direction  , for this you need a good roll rate . 

[EAF19_Marsh]

Late war design allowed for high speed fighters  190 , P 47 , p51  to allow fighters to snap roll and change direction  , for this you need a good roll rate .

 

 

A snap / flick roll involves stalling the inboard wing using elevator and rudder, it is not really a design feature. Later fighters had aileron boost tabs to aid roll at high speeds, but don't think the 262 had these.

 

It's roll rate was not an issue beyond what you would expect from its high speed.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

I'll stick to my DCS experience when fighting it. In the F-5 you can regularly tangle with other fighters (all of which have better high speed performance but slower roll rates). Like a pilot said in some article I can't recall, 'when you're fast fly fast, when you're slow fly slow'. Most of the times the worst pilots fly the best planes.

 

If you keep your eyes open and time your moves well, you can not get shot down. It's an exercise of patience but using a cool head most times you'll tire your enemy and force an ugly mistake.

 

If you're out of choices just pick the head-on pass and fire as early as you can hit. Most guns have a flatter trajectory, higher rate of fire and more ammunition than the Mk108. On a good day you hit them early and avoid the 30mm rain, on an average one they break and reposition, on a bad day you're blown to bits but all things considered this was bound to happen if you were forced into that. Just remember that VirHartmann loves his streak so the threat of actually having guns pointing at him sometimes is enough to open an escape window.

[r153]

A snap / flick roll involves stalling the inboard wing using elevator and rudder, it is not really a design feature. Later fighters had aileron boost tabs to aid roll at high speeds, but don't think the 262 had these.

 

It's roll rate was not an issue beyond what you would expect from its high speed.

 

any fighter without the ability to roll at high speed  'sux'  you would have thought Messerschmitt would have learned by then 

[Hoss]

To be quite honest. I see maybe 10% of the 262 pilots being really good and swooping in and out of engagements at break neck speed plucking targets out of the sky with a single tap of the trigger. The other 90% will buzz around near the deck at low speed trying to turn fight and getting seal-clubbed by Tempests and Spitfires.

And you will probably see a very limited number in any server, so they won't be there for very long in a mission............ 

 

Hoss

[ICDP]

The 262 was not used by anyone and the wing design influenced no one. The wing sweep was a CG correction issue and had no direct impact on the F-86 or anything else - unlike other German research which was used. German jet engine technology had almost no impact on engine development after the war as, though their axial flow engines entered service before others', they were no more advanced. About the only long-term beneficiaries were the Russians who in any case used the Nene as the basis for the next 10 years

 

I'm sorry but while I agree with most of your points, it is a fact that the Me262 slat design was absolutely used as a basis for the early F86 Sabre wing slats.  It's wrong to assign legend/mythical status to the Me262 as some kind of major influence for allied Jet designs.  It is equally as wrong to deny it had any influence whatsoever.

 

Extract from a book detailing the design and development of the F86 Sabre.

Edited November 26, 2017 by ICDP

[DD_Arthur]

I know 262's successfully attacked bomber formations but did they manage to shoot down any allied fighters?

[LukeFF]

I know 262's successfully attacked bomber formations but did they manage to shoot down any allied fighters?

Yes, in fact the (arguably) last Luftwaffe victory of the war was scored by a 262 against a Soviet fighter.

[Gambit21]

any fighter without the ability to roll at high speed  'sux'  you would have thought Messerschmitt would have learned by then 

Don Bryan of the 352nd, the group's highest scoring living ace (until recently with his passing) stated that he never saw a 262 fly through a bomber formation without taking out at least 2 of them. So while something certainly 'sux' in the general vicinity, I don't think it's the 262.

[r153]

Don Bryan of the 352nd, the group's highest scoring living ace (until recently with his passing) stated that he never saw a 262 fly through a bomber formation without taking out at least 2 of them. So while something certainly 'sux' in the general vicinity, I don't think it's the 262.

 

Personal taste u UNDERSTAND ?      

[LukeFF]

Personal taste u UNDERSTAND ?      

 

It's not Gambit with the comprehension problem here.

[novicebutdeadly]

I just hope that we have flak alleys 

Edited November 26, 2017 by novicebutdeadly

[Archie]

As the 262 won't have formations of hundreds of 4 engined bombers to shoot at (an impossible dream) then I think it will be most useful as a fast ground attack aircraft in BoBp. Load a couple of 250's, high speed run in to target and just keep going after the attack.

Then eyes on a swivel as you try try to land the thing afterwards. I doubt there will be as much protection around the bases as in real life, with flak corridors and a squadron of 190's circling the base, and even with that protection they still got shot down by marauding fighters.

Edited November 26, 2017 by Archie

[Heliopause]

Was not used by anyone.......

 

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

 

[Lusekofte]

Well I read that the swept wing design of the 262 was as mentioned a CG thing design. But in flight test it showed the positive effect it had on airflow over the control surfaces . In fact this was the reason for swept wing design after the war. I do not claim this as truth, but a lot of people seems to believe that and it is only later I read comments like in this topic that the swept wing design of the 262 had nothing to do with development of the F 86 wing design

[Voidhunger]

Hmm I didnt know that Schwalbe had build in heating of the front windshield.

and build in glass liquid cleaning of the front windshield like in car.

 

http://www.vhu.cz/exhibit/celni-vyhrivane-sklo-me-262-schwalbe/

[DerNeueMensch]

What happens with those early jet engines, when the fuel flow ceases due to negative or near zero g-forces? Will they just turn on again, or will they shut down without the possibility of reigniting them? Also, is there an IAS which could be reached (without losing control) that makes the engines quit? 

Edited November 26, 2017 by DerNeueMensch

[[APAF]VR_Spartan85]

 

I think we are all going to need ear protection when this crate is on the ramp...

[=362nd_FS=RoflSeal]

 

I think we are all going to need ear protection when this crate is on the ramp...

Those are GE engines, not Jumos

[[APAF]VR_Spartan85]

Awwwwww... how would the jumos sound?

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

So far this is the only footage of an original Jumo 004 runing: https://www.facebook.com/flyingheritage/videos/10152841379843666/

 

The buzzing sound at the beginning is the Riedel Starter Motor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGUqV0dl9gA

Edited November 26, 2017 by 6./ZG26_5tuka

[[APAF]VR_Spartan85]

Hmm so how would this work, that starter would be used to spool and turn the turbine/compressors until ignition then shut off?

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Yes, the pilot would first start the Riedel starter motor via an electrical starter and let it run until up till 800 RPM. Than it would be coupled with the turbine with a clutch and the ignition for the jet engine engaged. At 2000 RPM the Riedel disengages and shuts down whil the engine itself continues to run up until 3000 RPM (idle).

 

It will have an interesting (though quite lenghty) startup.

Edited November 26, 2017 by 6./ZG26_5tuka

[Voidhunger]

i hope that the team is aware how the Jumo should sound and try to reproduce it in the game

[6./ZG26_Loke]

Lt. Col. Donald "Don" S. Archer flew for the 48th Fighter Group, 493rd Fighter Squadron
during WWII in a P-47 named Wonderfull Winnie. He served in the US Army Air Corps from 1942 and later in the US Air Force til 1963.
In 1999 he flew in the virtual Combat Flight Sim Group RAF662 under the name RAF_Yank, in CFS1.
I had the pleasure of flying online with him once, not easy to do because of the time zones.
He passed away some 10 years ago.

He shared his stories with us in what became the "The Pilots Journals".
Below here are 2 text clips from his stories of his encounters with the Me-262, enjoy!

It was now late January of 1945 and the Germans were really on the run. The Germans were
crumbling on both the Eastern and Western Fronts.
With the Eighth Airforce blasting them by day and the RAF by night it was only a matter of time
before the war would be over. Our group continued in its ground attack role. We supported the
infantry units as best we could by bombing German armor, artillery positions, rail targets, troop
concentrations and airfields.
We had been hearing about some of the new German ``Wonder" weapons. V-2 rockets, rocket
planes and jet aircraft. After one mission into Germany we were on our way home. Flying along
minding our own business when I heard`` Thump thump thump" came the sound of slow firing
heavy cannons. As I swiveled around this swept wing plane came flashing through our flight. We
were cruising about 295-300 miles per hour. This ME-262 was doing nearly twice our speed! He
had crossed right in front of my wingman, and as they climbed he got off a quick burst into the right
engine of the jet. You could see pieces of it flying off and it started to trail smoke. I was in my P-
47M which was a faster than the D models. By the time I accelerated to get after him, he was long
gone, damaged engine and all!

-------

At about that time we began to be assigned off of our ground attack missions into fighter sweeps.
Our job was to get in the air early and try to intercept enemy fighters that were taking off to go after
our bombers.
We were often able to get to enemy airfields as they were taking off or just beginning their ascent. I
picked up several probables in a short time.
We had been informed about ME-262's in the area. These planes although relatively few in number
were a real threat to our bombers. They had a top speed of around 540 mph, around a 100 mph
faster than anything we could put in the air. The Air Force had managed to bomb or strafe nearly
26
every Luftwaffe airfield so the Germans required new strategy to keep flying. They had begun to
land there fighters on highways and roads and then hide the planes in the trees. On an afternoon
sortie I had my flight stake out an airfield near a major highway. The only way to have a chance at
an ME-262 was during take off or landing. They were vulnerable during take off and landings
because they bled off speed poorly. They were not fitted with any sophisticated dive brakes like
later jet aircraft would be. Hence they needed a long approach on landing
Sure enough on this day I spotted a 262 diving in for a landing. He was trailing smoke from one
engine and was making for the highway. I banked in behind him as he began to slow for landing.
Just before his wheels touched down I let him have it. My bullets converged on the rear of his plane
and raked the fuselage and stabilizers. He touched down as my tracers sawed off his right stabilizer.
He started to spin and his left wheel collapsed. I tore over his head and banked back towards him.
Several of his ground crew had run out from the trees and were helping him out of the cockpit.
Again I had the opportunity to let these poor bastards have it and I just peeled off and headed for
home. I though of how many times I had come back from a mission exhausted or wounded and my
guys had lifted me from the cockpit. I had no stomach to kill those guys in that situation.
This was my fifth confirmed kill which technically made me an ace. It went as a ground kill just
like my last. That made 3 in the air and 2 on the ground as far as the Air Force was concerned. Later
in the war they began to give guys credit for ground kills but it sort of muddied the waters a bit. I
never appeared on any "Ace" lists and to be truthful I could have cared less. There were too many
good men left behind when it was all over to care much about that sort of thing.

[Gambit21]

UNDERSTAND ? 

 

Do you?

[[I./JG62]steppa]

 

Posted Today, 20:04

r153, on 26 Nov 2017 - 10:30, said:

UNDERSTAND ? 

Do you?

please be mature about this, so far this was a great read

please

[Lusekofte]

Don Bryan of the 352nd, the group's highest scoring living ace (until recently with his passing) stated that he never saw a 262 fly through a bomber formation without taking out at least 2 of them. So while something certainly 'sux' in the general vicinity, I don't think it's the 262.

Well I can tell you one thing, the numbers do not add up, ME 262 and for that sake did not average 1 bomber each takeoff , in fact Hitler demanded one bomber down for every takeoff, and it was met by grinning from Germans pilots.

But it is quite possible the problem was to get in position to attack, and once they did they could take down 2 . Also the climb and range did not allowe for more than 10 minutes with the bombers , witch means 1 to two passes in safe speed. 

[Gambit21]

Well I can tell you one thing, the numbers do not add up, ME 262 and for that sake did not average 1 bomber each takeoff , in fact Hitler demanded one bomber down for every takeoff, and it was met by grinning from Germans pilots.

But it is quite possible the problem was to get in position to attack, and once they did they could take down 2 . Also the climb and range did not allowe for more than 10 minutes with the bombers , witch means 1 to two passes in safe speed.

 

I'll take Don at his word.

Second he said "HE never saw one go through a bomber formation without taking two bombers"

NOT - "every 262 in Europe on every mission took 2 or even 1 bomber on every mission"

 

Clear enough?

[Legioneod]

Lt. Col. Donald "Don" S. Archer flew for the 48th Fighter Group, 493rd Fighter Squadron

during WWII in a P-47 named Wonderfull Winnie. He served in the US Army Air Corps from 1942 and later in the US Air Force til 1963.

In 1999 he flew in the virtual Combat Flight Sim Group RAF662 under the name RAF_Yank, in CFS1.

I had the pleasure of flying online with him once, not easy to do because of the time zones.

He passed away some 10 years ago.

 

He shared his stories with us in what became the "The Pilots Journals".

Below here are 2 text clips from his stories of his encounters with the Me-262, enjoy!

 

It was now late January of 1945 and the Germans were really on the run. The Germans were

crumbling on both the Eastern and Western Fronts.

With the Eighth Airforce blasting them by day and the RAF by night it was only a matter of time

before the war would be over. Our group continued in its ground attack role. We supported the

infantry units as best we could by bombing German armor, artillery positions, rail targets, troop

concentrations and airfields.

We had been hearing about some of the new German ``Wonder" weapons. V-2 rockets, rocket

planes and jet aircraft. After one mission into Germany we were on our way home. Flying along

minding our own business when I heard`` Thump thump thump" came the sound of slow firing

heavy cannons. As I swiveled around this swept wing plane came flashing through our flight. We

were cruising about 295-300 miles per hour. This ME-262 was doing nearly twice our speed! He

had crossed right in front of my wingman, and as they climbed he got off a quick burst into the right

engine of the jet. You could see pieces of it flying off and it started to trail smoke. I was in my P-

47M which was a faster than the D models. By the time I accelerated to get after him, he was long

gone, damaged engine and all!

 

-------

 

At about that time we began to be assigned off of our ground attack missions into fighter sweeps.

Our job was to get in the air early and try to intercept enemy fighters that were taking off to go after

our bombers.

We were often able to get to enemy airfields as they were taking off or just beginning their ascent. I

picked up several probables in a short time.

We had been informed about ME-262's in the area. These planes although relatively few in number

were a real threat to our bombers. They had a top speed of around 540 mph, around a 100 mph

faster than anything we could put in the air. The Air Force had managed to bomb or strafe nearly

26

every Luftwaffe airfield so the Germans required new strategy to keep flying. They had begun to

land there fighters on highways and roads and then hide the planes in the trees. On an afternoon

sortie I had my flight stake out an airfield near a major highway. The only way to have a chance at

an ME-262 was during take off or landing. They were vulnerable during take off and landings

because they bled off speed poorly. They were not fitted with any sophisticated dive brakes like

later jet aircraft would be. Hence they needed a long approach on landing

Sure enough on this day I spotted a 262 diving in for a landing. He was trailing smoke from one

engine and was making for the highway. I banked in behind him as he began to slow for landing.

Just before his wheels touched down I let him have it. My bullets converged on the rear of his plane

and raked the fuselage and stabilizers. He touched down as my tracers sawed off his right stabilizer.

He started to spin and his left wheel collapsed. I tore over his head and banked back towards him.

Several of his ground crew had run out from the trees and were helping him out of the cockpit.

Again I had the opportunity to let these poor bastards have it and I just peeled off and headed for

home. I though of how many times I had come back from a mission exhausted or wounded and my

guys had lifted me from the cockpit. I had no stomach to kill those guys in that situation.

This was my fifth confirmed kill which technically made me an ace. It went as a ground kill just

like my last. That made 3 in the air and 2 on the ground as far as the Air Force was concerned. Later

in the war they began to give guys credit for ground kills but it sort of muddied the waters a bit. I

never appeared on any "Ace" lists and to be truthful I could have cared less. There were too many

good men left behind when it was all over to care much about that sort of thing.

Interesting Story. Are you sure he said he was flying an M? The only fighter group to have P-47M was the 56th.

[RickVic]

For me the whole "we look into jets performance" screams literally "future Korea Expansion"

 

 

German Pilots say that you cannot push the throttle hard in a Me262 because the engines would be flooded with fuel, so 1946 get that right

[eRoN]

Lt. Col. Donald "Don" S. Archer ...

 

Thanks for this, very interesting.

[curiousGamblerr]

Lt. Col. Donald "Don" S. Archer  ...

 

He shared his stories with us in what became the "The Pilots Journals".

 

...

 

I googled "The Pilots Journals" and didn't find anything, is this a book or something? Some interesting snippets there, I would love to read more!

[VeryOldMan]

Late war design allowed for high speed fighters  190 , P 47 , p51  to allow fighters to snap roll and change direction  , for this you need a good roll rate . 

Yet another one thinking the main work of air warfare is score air kills agaisnt fighters.  The 262 was armed with 4 Mk108 for a reason... BOMBERS!

 

B17  do not snap roll to avoid you.

[Jade_Monkey]

For me the whole "we look into jets performance" screams literally "future Korea Expansion"

 

 

German Pilots say that you cannot push the throttle hard in a Me262 because the engines would be flooded with fuel, so 1946 get that right

That's the first thing i thought when i read the announcement. They had already mentioned that some members (Han?) of the dev team were looking forward to a Korea scenario, so it's not such a crazy idea.

 

Furthermore, with this new somewhat parallel development of the great battles, i can see this happening in the future as one of the modules they would be working on.

Edited November 27, 2017 by Jade_Monkey

[6./ZG26_Loke]

Interesting Story. Are you sure he said he was flying an M? The only fighter group to have P-47M was the 56th.

I only relayed what he wrote. He may have remembered wrong, as he was an elder chap when he wrote it, plus it had been more than 55 years. He was born in 1922, and passed away in 2013. The last years he spend in a rest-home, and was deaf.

Here an interview with him, and you do feel he is old at this time.

 

Megan George:

Okay. This is Megan George doing an interview of Don Archer who was in the U.S. Air Force.

Donald Archer:

That's right.

Megan George:

Okay. Don, let’s start with where did you serve, like what--

Donald Archer:

Well, I joined the Air Force October 1942 as a cadet. And I started in a place called Houghton, Michigan, and about a month or two, just general brush up to be sure. It was just actually like going back to college. But we just studied math and physics and things of that sort. And then I went to primary training at, let's see, that was in Americus, Georgia. That's right near Jimmy Carter's hometown, Plains.

Megan George:

Wow.

Donald Archer:

And I was there about two months flying PT-17s, the bi-wing airplanes, kind of fun to fly. And from there I went to Greenville, Mississippi, what we called basic. And we had a little better airplane, a BT-13 or -15--more powerful. And I was there two months. And then went to--let’s see, Americus--Dothan, Alabama, for what we call a dance, with primary basic and advanced training in a better, more powerful airplane with each, each advancement. And then you--actually did a lot more, a lot more aerobatics in advanced, and things of that sort--prepare to become a fighter pilot. That was in the North American AT-6 aircraft, very nice aircraft. You still see them around occasionally at air shows, things of that sort. I graduated in February of 1944. And then we went to train in a plane that flew combat in a suburb of--it was in Maryland actually, but it's Silver Springs, Maryland, a suburb of Washington, D.C. And we learned the fighter combat tactics in the P-47 Thunderbolt. And then I believe, from there I went to Richmond Virginia, did some more advanced training in the same plane. And I've forgotten what month I did--was January of 1944 or '45. I've forgotten the month.

Megan George:

It's okay.

Donald Archer:

From there we went to England and did a little training there and learned fighter tactics from, actually, combat veterans, and we were only there about a month. And then--then we--this was in 1944, just before D-Day, on D-Day--and we had a big drawing to determine where we wanted to fly, which we wanted to--8th and 9th Air Force was over there. Quite a few units had various people--requirements that they need, and actually I think my name was drawn first of the whole bunch. And I could have had the choice of anywhere I wanted, but I had four friends and we wanted to stay together, so we looked to see who wanted five or more people, and we chose the 493rd Fighter Squadron and the 48th Fighter Group. And so all five of us got that. We told others not to pick it, so we all got in the--when we came, they wanted one pilot in one squadron, and two in the other two, and so, I became--I took--I got the squadron that was only one, so I rarely saw those four people again. Just once in a while we get together, but it's strange. So I flew--in the 9th Air Force, we flew close support to the ___ crew, so I flew in France and Belgium and Germany. We'd just go, just--just stay a little ways behind the lines. In fact, right after D-Day, we were in tents on a place called A-4 right on the beaches of Normandy, and every night the Germans would shell us. And once in a while you'd hear the shells go off, and you'd hear the spent shells, (flap) we'd call it, raining down on the tents. It was quite an experience. After that we stayed usually in--sometimes in tents. In Belgium, I think, we stayed in tents. But in one place in Belgium, we stayed in an old chateau where they'd had training of the Belgian troops before. It was very nice. We spent the winter there, which was nice because--

Megan George:

Yeah.

Donald Archer:

--it was a pretty cold winter.

Megan George:

Yeah.

Donald Archer:

All the snow and all. And we just kept moving along just behind the troops until the war was over in April of 1945. It was a nice outfit, I really--we still get together for reunions and all. We only lost a few pilots in our outfit, thank goodness. Some of them took tremendous beatings.

Megan George:

Sure. You talked about primary training and advanced training; what was that like?

Donald Archer:

Well, the primary was kind of--they were all--they say, long moments of fun punctuated by moments of anxiety is what I call those. Because it's fun to fly the planes, but you're always under the threat of washing out, they call it. And as far as I know I never had a wash--never even close to washing out, but--because I got a pretty good rating--but you never can tell, you know, if you got--if you were in an accident it is your own fault, you probably wash you out right then, send you home. Things of that sort. We flew--I've forgotten the number of hours each place. I think it's--was about 75 hours or so we flew in each one, or close to that. And so, each one--primary you just learned to fly the biplane and--called a (Stearman) is the one I had. And the ground roof--the wheels were very close together. You had to watch it carefully and be sure you didn't enter ____ you fly it, not just relax or ground the plane. It was fun to fly. It had a nice big radial engine and two wings. And I flew--you learn--you just learn basic flying and a little bit of--a lot of--we did a lot of take offs and landings and some very short navigational flights usually with an instructor leading you. Then when you went to basic, it was a low wing monoplane, more powerful, and we flew a lot there. A lot of cross-country training. Lot of (?tail?) experience. Once there, I had a cross-country all planned, and I pulled out the map to look where I was, and I had the canopy partially open. The wind caught it and blew the map away, so I had to fly the whole thing with--and they had people expecting you at various check points. And I flew low over there just in my head, and it should have taken about two and half hours, and instead it took me about four hours because I wandered all over looking for the check points.

Megan George:

Yeah.

Donald Archer:

And I always wondered about my instructors because they never said a word when I landed. And I wondered if he thought, "Where in the devil are they?" In advanced, you had a plane that when retracted it would retract the wheels, and it was faster and you learned fighter tactics, and that was a lot of fun. And then we had a little--afterwards we went to Washington D.C., to Silver Springs and learned to fly the plane we were going to fly in combat. And we did the same thing there. We learned fighter tactics and navigation. A lot of night flying then. Night flying is always scary because if you look--if you don't watch it, you get--you can't--you get all out of focus and can't tell what you doing. Some people spin in, and I was pretty lucky, never had anything happen. It was nice. And from there we went ___ to--we went over on the Queen--Queen Elizabeth. And I'm thinking my outfit went on the Queen Mary, but I went on the Queen Elizabeth. And we had some more training in England and learned the way they wanted us to fly there. Then we went to this unit to draw and see where we were going, and I became--I went in the 493rd. Very nice outfit.

Megan George:

What are fighter tactics?

Donald Archer:

What was that?

Megan George:

What are fighter tactics?

Donald Archer:

Oh. Well, we have various tactics to do and evade, if somebody gets on your tail, how to get away from them. You pull up, do a split-s, a navy roll, and go right straight down and through that. We call that split-s--through the, you know, when you come up this way and you go back behind. Or you can do a yaw, if he's pretty close to you and going pretty fast. You push the foot on one pedal, and you turn the stick the other way, and the plane--they're going this way--goes sliding like you're in--sliding a car, and that slows it down, and the fellow behind you probably goes shooting by. Sometimes you can even shoot him down then. I never had that luck. I had a fellow my tail one time, but he was quite a ways away and a lousy shot. I only did that--there’s only once I ever had that happen. And couple of times--one time I came up behind some jet airplanes when I came out of a dive bomb run, but they saw me before I could get a shot. They pulled away from me. They had probably 150-miles, a lot faster and weight. Even though I was going pretty fast after that run, they still pulled away. So in my outfit, we were strictly close support and dive bombing. Once in a while we had what we called a fighter sweep. I saw German planes sometimes, but what they'd do is wait just beyond our range, and the bombers were turned toward Berlin, and as soon as we had to leave, then they'd start shooting at the bombers. Actually I saw only--other than New Year's Day when the Germans tried to shoot us up, at least I saw about, maybe eight or maybe six, I think at least eight pilots at once. I think there were two of them. There were 16 pilots, and they came to beat us up when we'd all have hangovers on New Year's Day. And they--I felt sorry them actually. I thank the (?flat guns?) around our airfield shot them all down. But they were all young kids, 16 or 18 years old. They--as far as I guess, they had been shot down or doing something else, and these were all--they--I had younger brothers at home that age, so I felt sorry for them, really.

Megan George:

What was D-Day like around that debate?

Donald Archer:

Which one?

Megan George:

What was D-Day like?

Donald Archer:

Well, I didn't get in on D-Day, except for they had us all--knowing it was going to be a lot of problems--our patrol--the Ditch we called it. What do you call it? The water between France and England.

Megan George:

Okay.

Donald Archer:

The Channel, the English Channel. I patrolled that just looking for downed aircraft or for problems a little bit. And we didn't even get credit, well, they just told us to do it, I guess, so--because I never saw it written up as anything, but we got to see a lot of the action but from a distance. So I can't tell you very much what D-Day was like. Some of the others will be able to. I was just, just getting ready. I was in between, as I--just getting ready to join a combat outfit. I didn't actually join for about--and get missions for flying maybe three months after that. When you get--join the outfit, then they check you out, too, to be sure they have confidence in you, takes a while there. It's funny, but you'd think, in war you'd think that people would not be all gung-ho, they'd want to stay home rather than--but these fellows all wanted to fly. Everybody wanted to fly, so the new guys don't get to fly as much as the older ones do.

Megan George:

Did you your carry anything for luck with you, like, in your plane: a picture, a letter from home, anything like that?

Donald Archer:

Do I have anything like that?

Megan George:

Did you keep anything, like, for luck in your plane?

Donald Archer:

Well, but I had one picture of my plane, but it's so tiny when I blew it up, it was out of focus. So I--I had several planes they--not that I got shot up in them, but they become war-weary, and they'd replace it with a new one or new model and they'd get shot down. I had a friend names George Jones that--he was actually flight commander, and I was the assistant at the time. And one day, I was flying with him, and he got shot up very badly. And I was escorting him towards home, and he somehow, he couldn't--I told him he ought to bail out considering the airplane didn't look very, very good. And he said--somehow tried, and he couldn't bail out, so he landed in a (Ford) base. We went--I took him that far, and the next day, two days later he came back. And he wanted to fly again. His plane was all under repair, so beat up. So I had a brand new plane, and he took that out, and he got hit head-on with a shell and was killed.

Megan George:

Oh.

Donald Archer:

I lost my plane and my friend George the same day. George Jones his name was. Wonderful person. I always decided after seeing a lot of that that it wasn't the people that were at risk; it was the airplanes. I'd (set) all my planes shot up, and I never got anything at all. One time I got the plane--I got my plane shot up, but I didn't get anything.

Megan George:

When were you first enlisted in the Army, were you living at home, or were you by your, like, on your own?

Donald Archer:

I was at home. I was 21, but I still lived at home. I had been going to college. I went to Cal Berkeley for awhile just to--I wanted to learn the things I knew I needed in the Air Force. I was still planning--already planning on going in. So I stayed home until they called me. And I worked--this is short. I told the people what I was working for, and they were looking for people so easy to get a job. I had a pretty nice job with a place called, let's see, Hazel Atlas Glass Company. And it was kind of fun. I just waited 'til they called me, and went in. I think that was--well, I know it was around February of 1944. No, that's when I graduated plane school, so it must have been February of '43. I wish I'd--I didn't know I was going on. I should have written a lot of this down.

Megan George:

Yeah. Why'd you choose the Air Force?

Donald Archer:

Well, ever since with I was a kid, I wanted to fly. And I don't know, in those days we didn't have much money, and they charged quite a lot to teach you to fly. And the way I had wanted to learn to fly is we had a ranch in Idaho, this cattle ranch, and my dad is--as kind of a source of extra income used to be a guide for hunters who wanted to come deer hunting and elk hunting, things of that sort. And one day a group of doctors were coming, and boy, here came this beautiful airplane, and it landed in our meadow. And I said, "Boy, that's for me." It really looked nice. And they were nice people. After they had finished hunting, they asked me if I would like to go for a ride in the airplane. I said, "Boy, would I." So they took us for--took me for a ride and let me take the stick, and it was really nice. I said stick. That was a different--they let me take the--that airplane had a wheel. Had a little wheel that they turned, and it moved. That was so great, it's a thrill. I said, "Boy, I gotta do that." So, I'd always been interested in flying. My grandfather had had a flight one time, and he had him my friend. And my dad was working hard, and my grandfather me under his wing, and so he had talked a lot about it. I was really thrilled. And that had me hooked right there.

Megan George:

Yeah.

Donald Archer:

So, but I knew the war was coming. I--me, I knew the war was coming. My draftee friends were going in a long way, I guess I explained that. I should have been out. So there's John--have you talked to John already? How are you, John? Oh.

Megan George:

Yeah. Um--

Donald Archer:

I don't think you told the truth, the whole truth, so help you God? Huh? John: Yep.

Donald Archer:

Okay. John and I had some of the same duties at various places. He was a lot--he was after I was by quite a bit.

Megan George:

Did you keep in touch with your family while you were gone?

Donald Archer:

Oh, sure.

Megan George:

Through letters?

Donald Archer:

My one brother joined the Air Force, and he was about--he went to different places. He flew bomber planes. I never saw him at all, but he joined, he joined about two months after I did. But the others, I kept in touch with. My mother, we used to--I wrote letters maybe not as often as I should. My mother wrote to me every week. And then my dad would put a little, "Hi, Don," or something in there. And I had one sister who was married, and she wrote to me quite a lot. Her husband finally went in the Navy. And then a couple of girlfriends wrote to me for awhile, but that tailed off.

Megan George:

Yeah.

Donald Archer:

So, out of sight out of mind.

Megan George:

Yeah.

Donald Archer:

We always kept close ____ with the family, and then when the war was over, I came home for a month, played around, and had a lot of fun, and I went back in and stayed in for--several years later had a lot of nice duty, Peru, mostly. Ferried airplanes around, things of that sort. Then Congress didn't give us any money, or I would have stayed in forever, I guess.

Megan George:

What did you do on your spare time, like, when you weren't flying? Like where--did you go places off base? Did you hang out at the college?

Donald Archer:

No. We did a lot of various things, but mostly what I did is make bird houses. I don't know why. There must be bird houses I made all over Europe. My dad was a builder, and I used to make bird houses at home. So just for fun I--I made them all the same. They were triangular-shaped with a little hole, and a little perch for them to stand. And I made those all the time. And then we used to party occasionally but not too often. Read a lot, I read a lot. A lot of us--we usually stayed, about eight of us, in an area maybe as big at this here, six or eight of us. We'd tell stories about home and girlfriends and things of that sort. And once in a while we'd get a pass to town, and we knew--in fact a friend of mine, a fellow named Lin Maltbie married, he met a girl on leave in England--and he was only on a seven-day leave--and he met her and married her in those seven days. And I don't know if you follow golf or not, but his son Roger was a professional golfer for a while. Now he's a golf commentator. In fact, they are still happily married. I always wondered if short engagements worked, and his sure was. He flew the same plane I did, but in a different outfit. His real name is Franklin, but he goes by "Lin." I saw him--I got a little book on the plane, and his name is in there. He escaped being shot down and evaded the enemy and got back on base. His story's in there. But his name is Archie Franklin. They called him Archie in there. I looked, I said, "Oh, that's a fellow I know. Amazing how that happens.

Megan George:

Do you remember any of the stories that you liked to tell on base?

Donald Archer:

Do I which?

Megan George:

Do you remember any of the stories from base that you liked to tell?

Donald Archer:

From base? I don't really know. I don't think so.

Megan George:

No good stories?

Donald Archer:

Nah. Some of the stories, they get embellished a lot.

Megan George:

Yeah.

Donald Archer:

But his story was evading where he got shot down, and the Germans were looking for us, so if you got shot down. And the idea is to hunch underground near the Belgians that would help you get back to base. And they came--if you got to them before the Germans did, they'd hide you--hide you even though if the Germans caught them, they'd shoot them right then. Something like that. They did it anyway. And it was quite a story on escaping.

Megan George:

Do you remember any of your first commanding officers?

Donald Archer:

Well, I remember some. Royal Baker was one that I had, and then, let's see--

Megan George:

What was he like?

Donald Archer:

And then--I ought to go get my book. [Tape recorder turned off]

Megan George:

Okay. So what was the story you had about Willard?

Donald Archer:

What was that?

Megan George:

What was the story you had about Willard?

Donald Archer:

He used to smoke in bed all the time, and I was afraid he'd catch on fire. And I woke up one night, I'd dreamed the tent was on fire, and sure enough, it was. And it was in the snow in Belgium, so I grabbed the tent he was in and the folding cot, and he and the cot--all into the snow.

Megan George:

That's funny.

Donald Archer:

It wasn't too bad. It was only a little fire. He didn't get burned.

Megan George:

Teach him to keep him from--well, teach him from--stop smoking in bed.

Donald Archer:

You'd think so, but I don't know that it ever did. He--I think he's still alive. That was the last I heard, just recently in Houston, Texas. So the--one of the fellows, Jay Cooper, decided he ought to have a history of the squadron, so he got us all together, and we wrote our ideas, and he came up with this book on the 493rd Fighter Squadron of World War II.

Megan George:

So it's all of you writing this book? It's all of you?

Donald Archer:

Yeah, all of us ___+ It's about the various things.

Megan George:

Any pictures of you in there?

Donald Archer:

There's one, right there. I think the pictures are there, a few of every--a little of everything, and all our history while we were in combat. I don't know if his picture's here or not. I don't know. ____+

Megan George:

When you flew, did you fly with a partner, or were you by yourself?

Donald Archer:

No, by myself. [Audio garbled for 17 seconds]

Megan George:

Okay. Where were you at when you--when you resigned from the service, were you--was your--?

Donald Archer:

I stayed in quite a bit after the war, and I didn't ever resign from service. I went out in active duty, and then stayed in a--in a--I was assigned to reserve squadron, and we met once a week for a couple of hours for training, and occasionally we went on active duty. We didn't get to fly anymore, they just--like, I went on active duty and learned--Oh, I don't know. I learned business track tactics more than anything else. And so we did all that until we got our--retire after 20 years, you get a pension. So we waited until we were more than 20 years and retired. I waited, actually, 'til a little longer than that, because of the squadron got too few people, and they shut it down. Anyway.

Megan George:

So when you were in the reserves, are you based somewhere, or are you just--is it a little bit more--

Donald Archer:

No, you stay at home. You go to night training or daytime or--you're at home.

Megan George:

Where were you at when you were--when you were in the reserves?

Donald Archer:

I was at San Jose, mostly. Started out in San--San Leandro, and I used to go over to Moff--no. I didn't go to Moffett Field. For a while they did. I went to--I went up Marin County, and flew up there. I forgot the name of the air base. I was just thinking, I should have written all this down.

Megan George:

It's okay. Do you think your life's changed since the military?

Donald Archer:

Oh, I think for sure it did. And people--you meet some really wonderful people. Both in the service as service personnel and others. And I think they changed a lot during. You're bound to. And many of them are life-long friends. And I think I changed. Of course, I was just a kid at 21, so I know on my tour, I did. And after the war, we get some nice training. I got to meet people with very high influence and all. In Peru, we had diplomatic status, when we were flying there. And that was--it was a great experience. I treasure all of it.

Megan George:

Yeah. Where were you based at in Peru?

Donald Archer:

Little place called Talara right out in the desert near the--near the water. There's nothing you can kill but a sea gull there. Just, and I think we were--we had given them a (soul) and some planes about 15 years earlier, and someone had trained them to fly those. So we give them our planes and retired the old ones and taught them how to fly them. I stayed there about a year, a little over a year.

Megan George:

Were you married at all while in the service?

Donald Archer:

I was single there. I didn't get married until I was 31. I was single. And that was--that was a great experience. Called The Americas Republics Project.

Megan George:

Was that in--that was in Peru?

Donald Archer:

In Peru. They had others in Ecuador and Brazil, Nicaragua. I guess that--I don't know.

Megan George:

Yeah.

Donald Archer:

I was in Peru, and based out of Panama.

Megan George:

What do you think of the military--you said--like, the military now?

Donald Archer:

I think it's still a great outfit. I think it's pretty well organized. We probably have a few problems that I don't know very much about. I haven't talked to anyone in the last two years about it. I talked to some a couple years ago. I used to have a friend who was in the service and flying still. He's out now too. A fellow named Tom Perish (ph). And so I don't know. I don't know much about it anymore.

Megan George:

Okay. Did you have any--did you--were you ever awarded any medals or certificates, or--?

Donald Archer:

Well, I was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross which you get for, I don't know, some sort of valor. It's not anywhere near the--like a Medal of Honor, but it's about halfway up the scale. It's a pretty nice thing to have. And then in other missions I flew some--they have the Air Medal they gave you for, I don't know what it is. For meritorious service maybe, and you get that. And then the unit--you get a Unit Citation if your unit performs very high--to a high standard. It's about the same as nowadays, I think. So I have those, and every time--so the Air Medal I have ___, instead of giving you another Air Medal when you give you one, they give you an oak leaf cluster to it. So I have the Air Medal and 12 oak leaf clusters. But some people have probably 30 or 40 of them because they change this--the requirements for them all the time. Like, for a while you used to get an Air Medal every five missions, and then they changed it to ten. And then I don't know where it went after that, you know? So it doesn't mean very much, but it's--it’s some recognition. The Distinguished Flying Cross is a pretty good medal, but that's as high as I got.

Megan George:

What did you get the--the Cross for? The Distinguished Cross for? Flying Cross?

Donald Archer:

What was that?

Megan George:

What did you get the Distinguished Flying Cross for?

Donald Archer:

Oh, for a special mission I made. Maybe--I don't think it's in the book or not. Maybe. But I got it for bombing raid I did on a rail road yard, and it was the prettiest bombing I've ever seen. I’ve never seen anything like it. I was really proud of it before anything happened. I was at the end of my run, and I hit the locomotive with my bombs and blew it up. And my wingman hit the tinder the--with all the fuel in it, all the--

Megan George:

Okay.

Donald Archer:

--right behind me, and he blew it up. And the next man, we had two ___, and he hit the next one, and just boom, boom, just beautiful, right down the line.

Megan George:

Down the train.

Donald Archer:

And that's what I got. Of course a lot of it--if one of them goes to the bomb run first, or the leader, and he sets the tone for the whole thing. And we just have to get it just right. And so that's nice. It's nothing like some of the fellows that--they've gone up to DS: Distinguished Service Cross, which is higher, and a couple of my friends have that. And the Medal of Honor is really--I don't know. I think a lot of times--I don't know. I'm not--I don't want to comment on that. I don't know enough about it. Those I've known that have it, some of them I didn't like very well.

Megan George:

Yeah.

Donald Archer:

I didn't have anything to do with earning it.

Megan George:

Okay. Well, if you could sum up your experience in the military with, like, one word or a couple, like, sentences, how would you sum it up?

Donald Archer:

Well, I think it was great experience. It taught me a lot about life, and actually if you learned what they tried to teach you, it sets you up for success and life afterward. Because all--everything they taught you was aimed toward teaching you to be a better person, to do a better job in anything you did. And I think it worked very well. I appreciated it.

Megan George:

Okay. Well, thank you very much for meeting with us, Mr. Archer. I appreciate it.

Donald Archer:

You're welcome. Thanks for asking me.

Megan George:

No problem.