So, let's talk jets.

[HagarTheHorrible]

I was chatting with a Canberra pilot/Instructor (Long retired) who helps run a small aviation museum close to were I live. They have a Canberra cockpit section and I was telling him that it was one of my favorite Britsh aircraft, odd I know but there you have it. His one comment about the early Canberra's was a very telling "the engines were very temperamental and finicky to operate and if you lost an engine it was punch out time" ( I paraphrase obviously). These engines were a generation beyond that used in the 262 probably incorporating many of the lessons learned from captured Jumo engines. For all it's glory and appearance of modernity I expect the 262 was very rough and ready with many wartime compromises and beset with quality control issues and materials.

[Guest deleted@30725]

The jets won't be OP if that's what some people might be worried about. We'll just have to learn new tactics since early jets were pretty rough.

[ShamrockOneFive]

Only the A-2 had bomb racks and limited armament (2xMk108). Not sure if we're going to get it either as a stanalone aircraft or mod.

 

Having faced off 262s in another title with similar planeset I doubt they will impose such a threat as some tend to belive. Mastering the combination of speed and firepower combined with all disadvantages of the aircraft takes skill and it's limited flight duration ( 35-50 min depending on source) means it will not be able to controll airspaces for too long. That and the lack of suitable airfields to takeoff from may impose great tactical restrictions on the 262 to allow it's piston engined counterparts to even it out.

 

Infact I'm more afraid of the Spitfire in that planeset than the 262.

 

Yeah that's the version I'm thinking of. It's not dramatically different than the A-1 variation so I can see them doing that as a mod.

 

Everyone should be afraid of the Spitfire IX if they give it +25lb of boost on the engine! :D

[Voidhunger]

Im curious if they model R4M rockets for the 262. It shoulnt be so hard and the plane will be completed.

[eRoN]

So 1946 got it right then.

 

Yes, most likely because Germany had a major lack of important materials like ferritic heat-resistant steel and silicone needed to control the temperatures, and also that it was a turbojet which produce a lot more heat.

Edited November 21, 2017 by eRoN

[216th_Jordan]

One thing people tend to forget is that a jet engine produces more thrust the faster it moves through air while prop thrust decreases severely with speed. In a 262 you climb 25 m/s somewhere between 450 and 600 kph, so if a 262 plays it smart he wont be caught.

[Jade_Monkey]

Imagine four of these bad boys going on a high altitude fighter sweep mission. Then spotting a group of A-20s through a gap in the clouds.

 

Just picture that in the current Kuban map (for example) with the new extended visibility skies.

 

Just picture it for a second

[Livai]

Pretty tough the Me-262
 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gZV_Of_-zk

 

Edited November 21, 2017 by Livai

[Voidhunger]

Imagine four of these bad boys going on a high altitude fighter sweep mission. Then spotting a group of A-20s through a gap in the clouds.

 

Just picture that in the current Kuban map (for example) with the new extended visibility skies.

 

Just picture it for a second

I cant wait for that!

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

One thing people tend to forget is that a jet engine produces more thrust the faster it moves through air while prop thrust decreases severely with speed. In a 262 you climb 25 m/s somewhere between 450 and 600 kph, so if a 262 plays it smart he wont be caught.

This + at 4000m it has only half that climbrate already when aircraft like the P-47 and P-51 just get warm. At 7000m things are starting to look really bad for the 262 since it's manouvrebility in thin air and climb rate are far inferiour to it's adversaries.

[von-Luck]

I guess I have a different opinion about the 262 compared to others. I see a lot of very good pilots in IL2 as compared to other flight sims and I know people understand how to fly a 190 - the 262 will be like a 190 only much faster. When flown properly - which I will posit is not difficult at all - it will be very very good. It has good thrust to weight for its time and will be able to reclaim E well. All this said every plane can be shot down from a good bounce and like a 190 if you're forced into the low and slow you're done.

 

von Luck

[Bullets]

Just keep a good look out and if you see you are being dove on, roll upside down and do a half loop and then just stay low and get away and reposition or try and escape through any nearby clouds   

[Heliopause]

Nice.....

 

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

The major difference between the Me-262 and the Fw-190 however is that when flying latter (as with the Bf-109) should things go south you can always play the angles game competently until given the chance to use your superior acceleration to put some separation between you and the enemy.

 

With the Me-262, you will eclipse anything that flies when everything goes right, but at the slightest sight of trouble you're as helpless as a Ju-52. You cannot jink as dramatically when bounced (and if you do say goodbye to your airspeed), if caught slower than optimal you're almost stationary (take-off, climb to mission altitude, landing and other combat situations), the engines are twitchy and I assume not very resistant to damage (leading to asymmetrical thrust) and the endurance is relatively poor too.

 

It might sound exaggerated but it's easy to end up in trouble: say you go after a sneaky Tempest or P-51, they manoeuvre out of the way putting many more angles than you can correct and you instinctively pull on the stick to try and get your bullets on target. In doing so, you a) still can't keep up the turn and b) lose a lot of speed from pulling too much G. While you scramble to get energy your prey can easily reverse onto you and finish you there and then. Nothing is as despairing as being out of speed at high AoA in a jet fighter while the enemy is dragging his guns towards you. I kill a lot of MiG-21s like that in the F-5.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

I guess I have a different opinion about the 262 compared to others. I see a lot of very good pilots in IL2 as compared to other flight sims and I know people understand how to fly a 190 - the 262 will be like a 190 only much faster. When flown properly - which I will posit is not difficult at all - it will be very very good. It has good thrust to weight for its time and will be able to reclaim E well. All this said every plane can be shot down from a good bounce and like a 190 if you're forced into the low and slow you're done.

 

von Luck

All true but remember the 262 is 2t heavier than the 190 and as a jet engine performs differently requires different speed management. Prop fighters produce great thrust at low speed with degrading efficiency as speed increases, vise versa is true for jets. Thats why you're a sitting duck in the 262 going anything slower than 400 km/h since any prop fighter will accelerate just as fast as you at this speed.

 

While certainly not representative for IL2 I've seen many pilots fail at jet vs prop combat in WT just because of neglecting this important aspect.

Edited November 22, 2017 by 6./ZG26_5tuka

[von-Luck]

You are both right flying well in a 262 will require diligent Situational Awareness and maintaining speed. These are two things good 190 pilots should already be well rehearsed in. At the end of the day we are discussing a B&Z bird with a fantastic too speed, excellent high speed handling characteristics, and a power to weight that is greater than your opposition. Oh and 4xMK108 in the nose means you unleashed apocalyptic firepower and can punish the smallest mistake in the shortest window. I have no doubt she will be a great plane if flown carefully and correctly.

 

von Luck

[Livai]

The Me-262 is a " Catch me if you can plane " after you speeded up you look at the Engine temps flying with 950 km/h horizontal or dive down with 1050 km/h.

[6./ZG26_McKvack]

Which version do you guys think we will get? I am pretty tempted on the 4x MK108 but trading 2 of them for a pair of 250kg bombs wouldn't be too bad either

Edited November 23, 2017 by 6./ZG26_McKvack

[Voidhunger]

I would say both version. (I hope)

[III/JG53Frankyboy]

sure... default the A-1 fighter, perhaps with a R4M option.

And there has to be an A-2 fighterbomber option.

I dont expect to get it, but i would also like to have the A-2/U2 with glas nose for a bombardier.

this position dont need to be modeled, just switch from the pilotposition to the bombsight.

[CUJO_1970]

A lot of misconceptions on here about the 262.

 

Bob Strobell and his crew of Watson's Wizzers who operated 10 captured Me262 after the war (first US all-jet fighter unit) loved the aircraft and praised it's handling characteristics and reliability.

 

They never had problems with the engines at all even though they flew at least a couple of them at 500mph - the only engine mechanical problem they had were two starter motors and both were easily replaced in 30 minutes. The modular construction made the aircraft extremely easy to work on.

 

Several of the pilots specifically talked about the advantages over their P-47 they were used to flying - at speeds and flight regimes where the P-47 would shudder and vibrate the 262 flew smooth as can be - and they marveled at just trying to get it to slow down - the 262 operated at level flight speeds other piston engine aircraft would enter compressibility in.

 

It was a good handling, honest aircraft - not the unreliable dog many are describing it as.

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

Flameout was an issue on takeoff only when throttle was advanced too quickly by the pilot. That issue was solved on later 262 models with more advanced Jumo 004 B-3s which were fitted with a friction mechanism that prevented the fuel flow to exeed the limits. This was not a threat once airborne since the engines had enought revs to compensate by that point.

This

[PickleJarOfDeath]

gib 229

[LukeFF]

A lot of misconceptions on here about the 262.

 

Bob Strobell and his crew of Watson's Wizzers who operated 10 captured Me262 after the war (first US all-jet fighter unit) loved the aircraft and praised it's handling characteristics and reliability.

 

They never had problems with the engines at all even though they flew at least a couple of them at 500mph - the only engine mechanical problem they had were two starter motors and both were easily replaced in 30 minutes. The modular construction made the aircraft extremely easy to work on.

 

Several of the pilots specifically talked about the advantages over their P-47 they were used to flying - at speeds and flight regimes where the P-47 would shudder and vibrate the 262 flew smooth as can be - and they marveled at just trying to get it to slow down - the 262 operated at level flight speeds other piston engine aircraft would enter compressibility in.

 

It was a good handling, honest aircraft - not the unreliable dog many are describing it as.

 

Which is all true, but it was still terribly vulnerable on takeoff and landing, when it's acceleration was at it's worst.

[Field-Ops]

gib 229

Lol, personally this is a favorite of mine but I cant go on in life with unrealistic expectations 

[CUJO_1970]

Which is all true, but it was still terribly vulnerable on takeoff and landing, when it's acceleration was at it's worst.

 

It definitely was, no doubt about it.

 

Really though, even piston engine fighters are vulnerable on takeoff and landing.

[Willy__]

I doubt we would have problems on landing with the sniper AAA and the silly red circle around the AF on the map indicating an enemy near

Edited November 25, 2017 by 3./JG15_Staiger

[LukeFF]

I doubt we would have problems on landing with the sniper AAA and the silly red circle around the AF on the map indicating an enemy near

Well, the Germans did ring their jet bases with large amounts of AA, so attacking them on takeoff and landing should be a very risky affair.

[Willy__]

They didnt have that silly red circle and their gunners werent laser guided like we have ingame

[7.GShAP/Silas]

They didnt have that silly red circle and their gunners werent laser guided like we have ingame

 

 

If you fly somewhere other than 'Wings of Puberty' those silly red rings won't trouble you any longer.  The Finnish Dynamic server has them but you can just blow up the little transmitter station.  Not so bad.

 

True enough about the laser guided gunners though.

[Willy__]

If you fly somewhere other than 'Wings of Puberty' those silly red rings won't trouble you any longer.  The Finnish Dynamic server has them but you can just blow up the little transmitter station.  Not so bad.  

 

 

This is not server based, but hardcoded in the game, every server works the same way, if an enemy gets within the 10km radius the AF will be highlighted with a red circle on the map long before any AAA or anyone sees him. I do not usually vulch af's, but I still think its a silly feature.

 

-edit-

Its been a long time I last played on that [Edited] server.

 

Please keep political references in a non historic context off these boards.

Edited November 26, 2017 by Bearcat

[7.GShAP/Silas]

This is not server based, but hardcoded in the game, every server works the same way, if an enemy gets within the 10km radius the AF will be highlighted with a red circle on the map long before any AAA or anyone sees him. I do not usually vulch af's, but I still think its a silly feature.

 

-edit-

Its been a long time I last played on that crap communist server.

 

 

Oops, I forgot about the red color on the airfield icon, I thought you meant the magic radar vision on the map.

 

Yeah, there should be a way to turn that silliness off.

[BlitzPig_EL]

Any aircraft in the game has exploitable weaknesses, even the 262.  The biggest will be over confident pilots who think the jet is a get out of jail free card.

 

I do feel sorry for the guys in Peshkas and Bostons if any 262s are around, as bomber killing is what the 262 is all about.

 

Taking down fighters, in a dynamic engagement, will be somewhat of another kettle of fish, and will require very high levels of discipline on the part of the 262 pilot.  If the jet jockey decides he just has to get that kill, he will be in trouble.

[EAF19_Marsh]

the 262 operated at level flight speeds other piston engine aircraft would enter compressibility in.

 

 

 

Issues with compressibility in dives, though, with a nose tuck tendency that could catch pilots unawares. It was fairly easy in terms of general handling (engines a bit sensitive), but JG 7 noted that it did need instruction for all new pilots in terms of how to fly it from a tactical perspective. It was, after all, fairly new ground.

[Tomsk]

One thing people tend to forget is that a jet engine produces more thrust the faster it moves through air while prop thrust decreases severely with speed. In a 262 you climb 25 m/s somewhere between 450 and 600 kph, so if a 262 plays it smart he wont be caught.

 

Yeah personally I'm in the "The 262 will dominate" camp. Sure, if the 262 pilot tries to turn with a Spit then he's going to die ... but any pilot who knows how to work with a big speed advantage is just going to keep the speed high, and no one will ever catch them. It's so fast you don't even need to hold an altitude advantage, even diving it's likely no allied plane stands any serious chance of catching it. Scream in, nail some unsuspecting plane who's SA wasn't up to scratch, leave at the same ridiculous speed, rinse and repeat. Like flying a FW 190 D-9 on crack ...

[EAF19_Marsh]

Like flying a FW 190 D-9 on crack ...

 

 

If it handles like that, the FM is very wrong. Early jet aircraft fly rather differently, not least of which being the VNE is a series business so waltzing in and waltzing out again at high speed is more difficult than it sounds.

 

262 units lost really quite a lot of aircraft between pilot error, mechanical failure and enemy action. This is unlikely to be as well represented in a simulator, but it is not the carefree handling aircraft that you might hope it will be.

[Sunde]

If it handles like that, the FM is very wrong. Early jet aircraft fly rather differently, not least of which being the VNE is a series business so waltzing in and waltzing out again at high speed is more difficult than it sounds.

 

262 units lost really quite a lot of aircraft between pilot error, mechanical failure and enemy action. This is unlikely to be as well represented in a simulator, but it is not the carefree handling aircraft that you might hope it will be.

Im a big fan of "de hyping" the hype, but there is simply no way around the fact (This was said by allied testpilots and wartime pilots) That the 262 was neither unreliable nor a slouch in manuverability, couple that with the fact that it's faster than anything else in the air, and packs the biggest punch, it will be very very powerfull. Sure its not the hand of god, but i am most definitly in the "262 will dominate" camp, if it is anything like it was in reality. 

 

However we need not worry, because any multiplayer server will likely have 1 or 2 of the aircraft available, and if it is then it will be with the heaviest possible loadout. Will be great to fly in SP tho. 

[Tomsk]

If it handles like that, the FM is very wrong. Early jet aircraft fly rather differently, not least of which being the VNE is a series business so waltzing in and waltzing out again at high speed is more difficult than it sounds.

 

262 units lost really quite a lot of aircraft between pilot error, mechanical failure and enemy action. This is unlikely to be as well represented in a simulator, but it is not the carefree handling aircraft that you might hope it will be.

 

So I wouldn't say the FW 190 D-9 is a carefree aircraft either, there are definitely ways to fly it that will get you killed. That said you could be right, and how it appears in game is open to debate. However my understanding of the Me262 agrees with CUJO1970's:

 

A lot of misconceptions on here about the 262. [..] It was a good handling, honest aircraft - not the unreliable dog many are describing it as.

 

It was widely praised for it's good handling and excellent responsiveness at high speeds. Indeed, it was used (by the allies) after the war had ended, and as I understand it the Me262's wing design formed the basis of much of the design of the F-86 sabre. Most accounts I have read suggest there was a reason most Me262's were destroyed on the ground, or while landing ... it was very hard to shoot it down at other times, and of course completely impossible to out run.

[EAF19_Marsh]

So I wouldn't say the FW 190 D-9 is a carefree aircraft either, there are definitely ways to fly it that will get you killed. That said you could be right, and how it appears in game is open to debate. However my understanding of the Me262 agrees with CUJO1970's:

 

 

Totally different. A powerful piston-engined aircrfat is difficult to fly for different reasons to early gas turbine aircraft, which difficult for an entirely new set of reasons, many of which were poorly understood at the time.

 

It was widely praised for it's good handling and excellent responsiveness at high speeds. Indeed, it was used (by the allies) after the war had ended, and as I understand it the Me262's wing design formed the basis of much of the design of the F-86 sabre.

 

 

Experienced pilots found its handling to be fine at normal speed and conditions, but flying it tactically was far more difficult owing to its high speed and ease of making a mistake at such speeds. It also had very poor acceleration which - in concert with somewhat temperamental engines - meant it was fairly unforgiving to poor airmanship.

 

The 262 was not used by anyone and the wing design influenced no one. The wing sweep was a CG correction issue and had no direct impact on the F-86 or anything else - unlike other German research which was used. German jet engine technology had almost no impact on engine development after the war as, though their axial flow engines entered service before others', they were no more advanced. About the only long-term beneficiaries were the Russians who in any case used the Nene as the basis for the next 10 years

 

[LukeFF]

 

 

The 262 was not used by anyone and the wing design influenced no one.

 

 

The Czechs flew a small number of them until 1951.