So, let's talk jets.

[Mmaruda]

With Bodenplatte (auto-correct suggests boilerplate... I like it), we are getting the Schwalbe, boys! I only flown this in 1946 and I never liked it, except maybe for that atrocity with the 50mm cannon, I used to call the FU gun, but it was kinda like the A-10 "what I nice plane you got there attached to that cannon" type of thing.

 

In any case, dogfighting in jets it's really a thing for me - in flight sims we have stuff that you spend most time dealing with avionics or specific weapon delivery procedures. For that reason early jet combat always seemed like the best compromise - you still get that manual hands on analogue combat style without any of that "dear AWACS, tell me if that dot 80 miles away is bad dude" type of things, but with all the benefits of not having to bother with engine temps and 20 levers spread around the pit that are responsible for them temps staying away from Sun level.

 

I think the last time I actually experienced this awesomeness was in Rowan's Mig Alley (if anyone knows how to run it on Win10, pls tell me). Yeah, DCS has the Mig and the Sabre and I own both but it's just two planes over Caucasus again, kill me now. IL-2 1946 also does have early jet combat and with mods you can even go Korea or Nam, but the AI doesn't work very well, despite some mods making nice adjustments (I also don't want to download TBs of mod packs).

 

In any case, Battle for Korea/Mig Alley would be my wet dream, but at this point, I think it's not happening sooner that 2022 or something. So this got me thinking on something maybe requiring less time and effort from the devs, and basically the old IL-2 actually had a good idea with the 1946, though they went totally overboard with some stuff (Lerche anyone?). Maybe something similar, albeit on a smaller scale could be achieved here? Perhaps as a mini-expansion side project?

 

Someone already mentioned the Gloster Meteor somewhere, which would be a perfect fit with the 262. The Bodenplatte map whatever it's going to be could work with that (lets just say the Germans had some ace up their sleeve and the war dragged on a year longer and they went with the old plan again).

 

List of possible aircraft:

 

Gloster Meteor

Arado Ar 234

de Havilland Vampire

Lockheed P-80 Shooting Star

Horten Ho 229 (ok this on would probably be a stretch, I don't think there is any decent documentation for this)

 

Maybe throw in a scripted campaign to justify the scenario.

 

Anyway, just a thought. This whole Boilerplate thing got my imagination going, so I nearly forgot that we are to receive some Kuban goodies within a few weeks, but maybe it's worth floating the idea around.

 

 

 

[Voidhunger]

I cant wait to fly it in this sim

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fun8tIJTDMY

[Mmaruda]

I am kind of cautious about the 262. Coming from my 1946 experience, this thing takes tons of concentration and cool to fly properly. You know how you fly at around 60% throttle and then suddenly stuff happens so you violently push them balls to the wall and them 12 cylinders breathe hellfire as you accelerate? Not in the 262, not in that game. Going full throttle in the Schwalbe in 1946 from say 50% meant at lest one of your engines caught fire and then, keeping that throttle at full for prolonged amounts of time produced the same effect. Add to that the fact that in prolonged manoeuvre fights, you would bleed speed like crazy and regaining it took some serious effort... Yeah, that 50mm version was the only thing useful - you could just pop a few rounds in the general direction of a bomber formation and see burning parts flying around you. Wonder how it will be in the new IL-2, still all the above complaints is why I want allied jets.

 

PS Also, full throttle in any jet but the Russian ones in 1946 meant leaving huge smoke trails - you might as well have turner your formation lights on.

[150GCT_Veltro]

I cant wait to fly it in this sim

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fun8tIJTDMY

 

What a [Edited] beauty! :salute:

Edited November 20, 2017 by Bearcat
Profanity

[GarandM1]

The Me 163 Komet would certainly be interesting! I fell in love it after seeing it at the Smithsonian recently.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

The Me-262 is fast but extremely limited in capabilities. Come in fast, fire through the enemy group and reposition. Acceleration is rather poor so if you do something stupid the Tempests will eat you alive.

 

Contrary to the MiG-15 and F-86 it was not a simple aircraft to operate due to its very unreliable engines, and the airframe had terrible manoeuvrability across most speed ranges. You will need to keep an eye on the engines all flight long or they'll flame out/burn up/explode/all of the above.

[GarandM1]

The Me-262 is fast but extremely limited in capabilities. Come in fast, fire through the enemy group and reposition. Acceleration is rather poor so if you do something stupid the Tempests will eat you alive.

 

Contrary to the MiG-15 and F-86 it was not a simple aircraft to operate due to its very unreliable engines, and the airframe had terrible manoeuvrability across most speed ranges. You will need to keep an eye on the engines all flight long or they'll flame out/burn up/explode/all of the above.

 

This should make it quite interesting to fly then for sure. It might result in a bunch of 262s getting stomped online because they are piloted by people overconfident in its abilities.

[Mmaruda]

 

 

You will need to keep an eye on the engines all flight long or they'll flame out/burn up/explode/all of the above.

 

So 1946 got it right then.

[Voidhunger]

So 1946 got it right then.

I think so

[Finkeren]

To be quite honest. I see maybe 10% of the 262 pilots being really good and swooping in and out of engagements at break neck speed plucking targets out of the sky with a single tap of the trigger. The other 90% will buzz around near the deck at low speed trying to turn fight and getting seal-clubbed by Tempests and Spitfires.

[Mmaruda]

Well, that is good as well, at least noone will scream 262 OP, nerf pls. :D

[=RvE=Windmills]

You'll probably rarely see it in most MP servers, it will pretty much be a novelty thing there.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Flameout was an issue on takeoff only when throttle was advanced too quickly by the pilot. That issue was solved on later 262 models with more advanced Jumo 004 B-3s which were fitted with a friction mechanism that prevented the fuel flow to exeed the limits. This was not a threat once airborne since the engines had enought revs to compensate by that point.

[Lusekofte]

Guy´s I refuse to discuss jets in this forum .............

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TheBlackPenguin]

To be quite honest. I see maybe 10% of the 262 pilots being really good and swooping in and out of engagements at break neck speed plucking targets out of the sky with a single tap of the trigger. The other 90% will buzz around near the deck at low speed trying to turn fight and getting seal-clubbed by Tempests and Spitfires.

 

A Tempest actually chased one into Germany and as the 262 slowed down he eventually caught up to it and shot it down. Its in the Tempest at a video I shared to the forum earlier (engaged occurred because 262's were employed to drop anti-personnel mines from mid altitude, the Tempests were positioned higher on standing patrols in hopes of diving on them). 

[Lusekofte]

Flameout was an issue on takeoff only when throttle was advanced too quickly by the pilot. That issue was solved on later 262 models with more advanced Jumo 004 B-3s which were fitted with a friction mechanism that prevented the fuel flow to exeed the limits. This was not a threat once airborne since the engines had enought revs to compensate by that point.

 

Known tactics from escorting P 51 was stalking them to the airbase and shoot them down in approach. Not being able to throttle up they where sitting ducks. So not only in landings. This is why there was squadrons of FW 190 assigned to cover them in this phase

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Known tactics from escorting P 51 was stalking them to the airbase and shoot them down in approach. Not being able to throttle up they where sitting ducks. So not only in landings. This is why there was squadrons of FW 190 assigned to cover them in this phase

This has nothign to do with flameouts. Being first generation jet engines the Jumos had low revs at idle which lead to trouble when trying to accelerate a 6t heavy aircraft in an instant when sby is on your six.

 

The Jumos only really start to produce power at 400+ km/h.

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

They weren't talking about flameouts though, they happened in 1946 but they were rather rare, they talk about the engines getting on fire because of too sudden throttle increase. There was a workaround though, assign throttle to keybind, which increased in 5% intervals, and just smash the key and you could go full throttle very quickly, but nothing would happen because for the game it was done in small 5% steps.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Thanks for clarifying, 5tuka. Didn't know flameouts were only a take-off thing in the Jumo

To be quite honest. I see maybe 10% of the 262 pilots being really good and swooping in and out of engagements at break neck speed plucking targets out of the sky with a single tap of the trigger. The other 90% will buzz around near the deck at low speed trying to turn fight and getting seal-clubbed by Tempests and Spitfires.

 

The La-7 was my favourite aircraft for this. You could bait the vast majority of the jet jocks to pull hard on the stick to get you but obviously they'll never get to that. Once they're slow it was easy to get on their tail and send them down in flames. Looking forward to that again

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

Jet engines were very strange in 46. I always had trouble remembering which ones caught fire when the throttle was advanced too quickly.

[JG5_Zesphr]

The Ruse cruse missile Arado would be mint although I don't think the Vamp or Meteor saw front line serve in the war did they?

 

Also any of you WT vets remember this old gem?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mmaruda]

Jet engines were very strange in 46. I always had trouble remembering which ones caught fire when the throttle was advanced too quickly`

 

All of them, the Jumo ones being most prone to that, with the Soviet versions being slightly more forgiving.

 

Here is a fun fact about the old IL-2: around the Forgotten Battles FM version, when you flew the Bi-2, you would either go full throttle with the plane constantly accelerating to reach around 800 kph at which point it would start to do an uncontrollable spiral climb/descent pattern, or going below 90% at which point the engine would stop. Now try landing that pig and good luck.

 

 

I don't think the Vamp or Meteor saw front line serve in the war did they?

 

The Meteor sort of did, but I think it wasn't allowed over Germany, they did use it to shoot down a V1 I think, but the Vamp didn't see any action at all.

[6./ZG26_Custard]

Hopefully the dev's will add (NEIN!) to the radio chat when the 262 gets shot down. 

[Lensman]

Known tactics from escorting P 51 was stalking them to the airbase and shoot them down in approach. Not being able to throttle up they where sitting ducks. So not only in landings. This is why there was squadrons of FW 190 assigned to cover them in this phase

Yes, General Yeager got one that way.

[BlitzPig_EL]

As I posted  before, the first time I saw a 262 in '46 I promptly shot it down, I was in the Brewster...

 

The 262 will take BnZ to an entirely new level of patience, as unlike a 109, you won't have the option of changing to a turn/angles fight if it goes bad for you.  Also since there won't be big, slow four engine bombers for it to target, I expect it will be a pretty frustrating experience for the people flying them.

[PatrickAWlson]

262 was a bomber killer.  4x 30mm could do any bomber flying.  Closure speed was such that rear attacks became feasible once more.  Add to that the ability to escape from an otherwise overwhelming fighter cover and the value of the plane is obvious. 

 

Killing fighters was by surprise - target of opportunity. Unlike energy fighters like the 190 you don't even get one turn.  Get your target or don't get your target on the initial pass.  Just keep flying straight at 700 KPH.

 

It was not a dog fighter .  

Edited November 19, 2017 by PatrickAWlson

[Haza]

The Ruse cruse missile Arado would be mint although I don't think the Vamp or Meteor saw front line serve in the war did they?

 

Also any of you WT vets remember this old gem?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I thought it was another gallery section from Tony Heart's show, when the music started!!!

Edited November 19, 2017 by Haza

[ShamrockOneFive]

Don't forget the other option is likely to be the ground attack 2xSC250 option meaning that this may be more useful to some folks as a fast striker getting in and out with speed rather than something to try and fight with the enemy fighters. Getting into a turn fight and a Mustang or Tempest will be on you post haste

[Haza]

ShamWOW15 (Sorry ShamrockOneFive),

 

Just checked your blog out again and it is a lot better than I remember the last time I visited it and it is very eye catching. 

Being very tactful and extremely respectful, you might try touching base with Jason as I'm sure that some of your skill could be used on the IL2 home page to make it more user friendly and perhaps draw a visitor into the whole world of IL2.

Just a thought as you appear to have a flair for web pages and your site just made we want to investigate further as it is almost idiot proof (hence why it appealed to me).

 

Anyway, I hope you understand what I mean!?

 

 

Regards

[sinned]

I liked your review of script campaign.

 

I think you pointed out well its strengths and room for improvements.

 

I hope future scrip campaign writers listened.

[Feathered_IV]

You'll probably rarely see it in most MP servers, it will pretty much be a novelty thing there.

 

It will be banned on most servers.  Or positioned so far behind the front and with so little fuel it won't trouble anybody.

[Haza]

It will be banned on most servers.  Or positioned so far behind the front and with so little fuel it won't trouble anybody.

 

Nah, get airbourne turn one engine off to conserve fuel, then restart when near the battle!

[Bullets]

To be quite honest. I see maybe 10% of the 262 pilots being really good and swooping in and out of engagements at break neck speed plucking targets out of the sky with a single tap of the trigger. The other 90% will buzz around near the deck at low speed trying to turn fight and getting seal-clubbed by Tempests and Spitfires.

 

So basically our current 109 pilots haha   

[CanadaOne]

I'm no expert on the 262, but I'm hoping it means big long concrete runways and major airfields.

 

Big scenic airfields are a great part of any flightsim.

[JG5_Zesphr]

I wonder if we will see the massive flack battery lines to protect the 262's on finals or if they will need the D-9's to cover them 

[Bullets]

This exert is from its Wiki,

 

"Pilots soon learned that the Me 262 was quite maneuverable despite its high wing loading and lack of low-speed thrust, especially if attention was drawn to its effective maneuvering speeds. The controls were light and effective right up to the maximum permissible speed and perfectly harmonised. The inclusion of full span automatic leading-edge slats,^{[Note 6]} something of a "tradition" on Messerschmitt fighters dating back to the original Bf 109's outer wing slots of a similar type, helped increase the overall lift produced by the wing by as much as 35% in tight turns or at low speeds, greatly improving the aircraft's turn performance as well as its landing and takeoff characteristics.^[56] As many pilots soon found out, the Me 262's clean design also meant that it, like all jets, held its speed in tight turns much better than conventional propeller-driven fighters, which was a great potential advantage in a dogfight as it meant better energy retention in maneuvers.^[57] Luftwaffe test pilot and flight instructor Hans Fey stated, "The 262 will turn much better at high than at slow speeds and, due to its clean design, will keep its speed in tight turns much longer than conventional type aircraft."

 

What I take from this is that the aircraft should hold its energy well and as long as it has energy/speed it should be pretty manoeuvrable. If the pilot makes the mistake of loosing too much speed then it should be come helpless     

[Hirachi]

 

ALL We need for our Me-262 is a squad of JV-44 FW-190... o also i hope we get R4M rockets

[ShamrockOneFive]

ShamWOW15 (Sorry ShamrockOneFive),

 

Just checked your blog out again and it is a lot better than I remember the last time I visited it and it is very eye catching. 

Being very tactful and extremely respectful, you might try touching base with Jason as I'm sure that some of your skill could be used on the IL2 home page to make it more user friendly and perhaps draw a visitor into the whole world of IL2.

Just a thought as you appear to have a flair for web pages and your site just made we want to investigate further as it is almost idiot proof (hence why it appealed to me).

 

Anyway, I hope you understand what I mean!?

 

 

Regards

 

Thanks! I'm glad you like it and the progression. I used to do actual website coding but that was 2-decades ago now and I'm far out of date on what modern website coding is like. I'm more of a writer/content producer who knows a thing or two about WordPress templates.

 

Jason did ask for help with a potential newsletter and I did offer to write if they needed me. Not sure if they really have time to do that (its a time consuming process to do a newsletter) and plus Stormbirds is going fairly well as an independent site devoted to all things sim and whatever else I feel like writing about.

 

I liked your review of script campaign.

 

I think you pointed out well its strengths and room for improvements.

 

I hope future scrip campaign writers listened.

 

Talking about my campaign reviews? Thanks There's some great campaigns out there. Worth checking into many of them.

 

It will be banned on most servers.  Or positioned so far behind the front and with so little fuel it won't trouble anybody.

 

I do worry about that but then again the 262 would be great in single player where a lot of us spend time anyways. For multiplayer, they could be limited in number or restricted to ground attack loadouts to slow them down. That sometimes happened in the original IL-2. Plus I think the modeling is better here and the impressive speed might be offset by the complexity of flying a temperamental beast.

[Lusekofte]

eeee

 

What I take from this is that the aircraft should hold its energy well and as long as it has energy/speed it should be pretty manoeuvrable. If the pilot makes the mistake of loosing too much speed then it should be come helpless     

 

This is correct, but it do not make it manoeuvrable per see , only much more manoeuvrable at very high speed compared to conventional planes of the era, these speeds only was obtainable in a dive for piston engined planes. This due to the wing design . 

Its main problem was its slow speed performance , range and numbers

Edited November 19, 2017 by 216th_LuseKofte

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

I do worry about that but then again the 262 would be great in single player where a lot of us spend time anyways. For multiplayer, they could be limited in number or restricted to ground attack loadouts to slow them down. That sometimes happened in the original IL-2. Plus I think the modeling is better here and the impressive speed might be offset by the complexity of flying a temperamental beast.

Only the A-2 had bomb racks and limited armament (2xMk108). Not sure if we're going to get it either as a stanalone aircraft or mod.

 

Having faced off 262s in another title with similar planeset I doubt they will impose such a threat as some tend to belive. Mastering the combination of speed and firepower combined with all disadvantages of the aircraft takes skill and it's limited flight duration ( 35-50 min depending on source) means it will not be able to controll airspaces for too long. That and the lack of suitable airfields to takeoff from may impose great tactical restrictions on the 262 to allow it's piston engined counterparts to even it out.

 

Infact I'm more afraid of the Spitfire in that planeset than the 262.

Edited November 19, 2017 by 6./ZG26_5tuka