109 guns

[1_Robert_]

Hi everyone. 1st I have to say I’m just loving this sim. I’m new to the series although I’ve been flight swimming for 30yrs including many hours in the original il2 and 1946. I recently bought a Rift and I’ve rekindled an old hobby, in fact I think I’m enjoying it more than ever. Bravo to the developers, this really is a great work of art. Hopefully I’ll be able to join up with a squad.

 

My question is in regards to the 109 guns. I’ve been messing around online for the past few days and I’ve hit a ton of planes but I’ve been unable to score a kill. My understanding is with the BOx games there are purchasable upgrades or unlocks? Am I to be upgrading the guns to be more lethal? Are they already at full potential? Are they lacking punch vs the Russian planes in real life? Is it merely a lack of getting quality hits?

 

Thanks in advance for any advice!

 

Cheers,

Robert

[ZachariasX]

My understanding is with the BOx games there are purchasable upgrades or unlocks?

 

Guns in BoX work as they should (well, mostly). There is no "upgrade in lethality". They are very lethal also on the 109. You can find that out by joining online servers like Wings of Liberty. There are plenty of folks that will kill you in one pass. Just improve your aim.

 

Unlocks were a way to "earn" extra weapon configurations. The individual gun however will always adhere to the original performances.

[Livai]

 

 

Are they already at full potential? Are they lacking punch vs the Russian planes in real life? Is it merely a lack of getting quality hits?

 

Compare Offline vs AI and Online vs human player. Is there any difference? Do you have the same feeling lacking punch offline against the AI, too? If you have only Online vs human player a problem with lacking punch maybe your Network create the feeling of lacking punch???

 

Why I am talking about create because the Network can create the feeling of lacking punch. Where your enemy looks like he is made of concrete elements. You shoot at him and he just eats without any effect. Thats why it is improtant to know if you have the feeling only online against human player!!!!

[6./ZG26_Custard]

 

 

Compare Offline vs AI and Online vs human player. Is there any difference? Do you have the same feeling lacking punch offline against the AI, too? If you have only Online vs human player a problem with lacking punch maybe your Network create the feeling of lacking punch???

 

I think that online latency can have a massive effect on the perceived efficiency of weapons. I have flown missions in most aircraft types, and have been in situations where I have soaked up a massive amount of hits in one sortie flying a Pe-2 and been shot down in the same aircraft with relative ease in another. 

 

 

 

There are plenty of folks that will kill you in one pass. Just improve your aim

 

Yep.

 

 

 

Hopefully I’ll be able to join up with a squad.

 

Welcome Robert, I would most definitely join a squad if I were you. Get on Discord or TS, It's a great why to have fun and improve your flying. Depending on  what you enjoy, you have bomber, ground attack and fighter squads to choose from.

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/forum/17-virtual-squadrons/

 

See you in the virtual skies    

[Asgar]

Vessel, you and mr Fies are not the majority of the community, no matter how many times you repeat your bullcrap claimes

[Boaty-McBoatface]

I hope someone would make a poll, so we would see how many here feel the same as me and mr Fies. What side do you fly most and what do you feel about the MG151/20? would be interesting...

Anyone who has truly flown both sides to some extent knows the Russian planes don't go down without copious hits. However, I'm of the belief it's the 109 damage model that is the problem here. Tail comes off in 1 hit, wing outer section comes off in 1 hit, entire wing comes off without much more. The FW190 is not like this though, nor are the Heinkel or Ju88. They say it's because of the single wing spar of the 109, but to this extent is something surely questionable.

 

Regards

Edited November 15, 2017 by boaty_McBoatface

[150GCT_Veltro]

On Berloga that is best test, flying as VVS you feel that MG/151 20mm are fine even if La-5 feels a bit strange, considering it can take really too much 20mm. It's just an examlpe. Yak seems to be fine. So probaly this "Lutftwhiner complain" is not just related only to the MG151 itself but also to some VVS DM.

When flying as German you have really an insane amount of istant pilot killed, flying VVS you don't feel the same, even if when you are loaded of 20mm, La-5 again is a good example.

 

When you rip the 109 wings, it does feel a bit strange too....really too easy. FW-190 feel to be another paper aircaft.

 

We don't talk about Hispano vs 109 because they feel like 30mm.

 

The big question about this big problem in this fantastic new IL2 serie is still to be answered. This is not a spam but......we can't ignore this:

 

Edited November 15, 2017 by 150GCT_Veltro

[=EXPEND=Dendro]

We have no way to prove it but I strongly feel that something is not right with either german guns/ballistics or red aircraft damage model. Yesterday I saw a LA5 soak up 109 20mm gunpod rounds like they were airsoft pellets and still managed to survive my hits as well.

 

Surely, if the puffs of smoke are an indication of cannon round hits the server or model has registered the hits and the plane should go down or at least be very difficult to control? My last post of the 109's tail falling off after every hit was deleted so I don't expect this thread to stick around for long.

[Livai]

The big question about this big problem in this fantastic new IL2 serie is still to be answered. This is not a spam but......we can't ignore this:

 

 

We can't ignore the fact that the online experience for each of us is different.....

-> How different show this youtube video watch out for how many times the wings off repeats, indeed crazy and other funny-fact DM effects.................... :o:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8P1d9imI3E

[6./ZG26_Custard]

 

 

We can't ignore the fact that the online experience for each of us is different.....

 

Well, would you look at that, this guy is blowing the wings off and everything!

 

When you get that "server overloaded and this may cause erratic behavior"  message I think its undeniable that latency plays a part. 

[FTC_Riksen]

Yes the feeling of a weak 20mm cannon is definately there for several players. This might either be because russian planes are more resistant compared to the paper made 109. When I fly for VVS, I never have to do more than one pass on a 109 to either stop his engine or rip off his wing/tail. Although there are situations where you can get shot down with only a few shots by the germans, this is the minority of cases. Planes like the LaGG3 and the La5 can soak up a great amount of damage and still fly and maneuver. This is especially the case for the Pe2.

The only russian plane that is easier to shoot down, in my opinion, is the MiG3. It catches fire or smokes black quite easily ...

 

In the end of the day, you have to learn how to deal with these differences when flying online and use the higher speed and climb rates of the 109 to avoid staying in one's sight for too long

Edited November 15, 2017 by 4./JG52_Riksen

[6./ZG26_Custard]

Do someone know how many hits it was needed IRL Mg 151/20 to usually down an enemy fighter?

3-5 or more? How it is in game? And does the smoke puff mean a confirmed hit?

I do remember reading somewhere that German tests were carried out on the effectiveness of the 20 mm cannon round. From memory they indicated that to bring down a 4 engine bomber would require around 25-35 rounds and around 4-6 for single engine fighters. It would of course matter where you hit the aircraft because the HE round wouldn't do much against armored sections of the aeroplane.

 

As for the puff of smoke one would assume that is a hit? That being said throw in latency on a multiplayer server and who knows?

Edited November 15, 2017 by 6./ZG26_Custard

[6./ZG26_Custard]

I think most of this info has been lifted from Wikipedia (Not always the most reliable source of information) 

 

Here it states 25 rounds for a large bomber and 4 for a single engine aircraft. 

 

 

Mg 151/15 Specifications:

Type: single-barrel automatic cannon
Caliber: 15 mm x 96
Operation: Recoil-operated; short recoil
Length: 1916 mm
Barrel length: 1254 mm
Rifling: 8 grooves, right twist, 1 turn in 16"
Weight (complete): 38.1 kg (84 lb)
Rate of fire: 740 rpm
Effective range: 400 m
Muzzle velocity:
  HE-T, HEI-T: 960 m/s
  AP-T: 850 m/s
  AP WC: 1030 m/s
Projectile types:
  AP-T, weighing 72 g
  AP(WC), weighing 52 g
  HE, weighing 57 g/HE filler: 2.8 g   Mg 151/20 Specifications:
Type: single-barrel automatic cannon
Caliber: 20 mm x 82
Operation: Recoil-operated; short recoil
Length: 1766 mm
Barrel length: 1104 mm
Rifling: 1 turn in 23
Weight (complete): 42.7 kg
Rate of fire: 750 rpm
Effective range: N/A
Muzzle velocity:
  M-Geschoss: 805 m/s
  HE-T, AP: 705 m/s
Round types:
  M-Geschoss
  HE-T, AP

The MG 151 (MG 151/15) was a 15 mm autocannon produced by Waffenfabrik Mauser starting in 1940. It was in 1941 developed into the 20 mm MG 151/20 cannon which was widely used on many types of German Luftwaffe fighters, fighter bombers, night fighters, ground attack and even bombers as part of or as their main armament during World War II. The 20 mm MG 151/20 was also fitted on the Italian World War II fighter aircraft of the "Serie 5", the most effective Italian fighters of WWII.

The 15 mm MG 151 was found to have lackluster performance as the main gun on Messerschmitt Bf 109 early F-2, and was soon replaced by the 20 mm version to become the standard cannon for the Bf 109F-4 series onwards until it was superseded by the 30 mm MK 108 cannon.

To create the MG 151/20 round, Mauser simply necked out the MG 151/15's case (i.e. enlarged the opening of the case where the shell fits in) to fit a 20 mm shell—which, incidentally, was the same shell used in the MG FF cannon—and shortened the length of the case so that the total length of the complete round was the same for both calibres. These measures simplified conversion of the cannon between calibres, so that it was possible to convert the 15 mm to the 20 mm MG 151/20 simply by changing the barrel and making other small modifications. However, this simple modification-based approach was not without its drawbacks. The relatively short case of the 20 mm round, coupled with the larger and heavier 20 mm projectile cost some muzzle velocity (950 m/s for the 15 mm round vs. 800 m/s for the 20 mm round—a 16% drop). However, in comparison to the earlier MG FF cannon, the MG 151 had a higher muzzle velocity which gave it a more predictable trajectory and higher impact velocity/longer range.

 

 

Nevertheless, the extra HE capacity was considered well worth the loss in muzzle velocity. The basic 20 mm HE round, for example, had almost 30% more explosive content by weight than the 15 mm shell. Furthermore, the MG 151/20 also used the Minengeschoß ("mine shell"), which was made using drawn steel (similar to making cartridge cases) instead of being cast, as was typically done to make cannon shells at the time. The result was a shell with very thin yet strong walls, and hence a very large explosive (or incendiary) capacity. Indeed, the 20 mm M-shell carried 6-8 times the amount of explosives contained in the 15 mm shell. The new 20 mm shell was relatively effective against enemy aircraft, with the possible exception of heavily built bombers such as the B-17 Flying Fortress or Avro Lancaster. German statistics data showed that on average the 151/20 required an average of 25 hits to down a B-17, while 18-20 hits were required to down other 4-engine bomber types, and only four hits were required to down a single-engine fighter. While the larger round rapidly replaced its predecessor—the MG 151/15 was phased out in 1942—German engineers continued research into an even heavier cannon that could rapidly demolish heavy enemy bombers.

 

20mm M-Geschoss shell.

 

Two versions of the 20 mm MG 151 were built: one with a percussion priming system and a second E-model with electrical priming. Some rounds were available with a timer self-destruct and/or tracer (or glowtracer). There were also different types of high explosive shell fillings with either standard PETN, a mixture called HA41 (RDX and aluminium), and a compressed version where more explosives were compressed into same space using large pressures.

Eight hundred MG 151/20 were exported to Japan by a submarine in August 1943 and were used to equip 388 Japanese Ki-61-I Hei fighters.

The 20 mm MG 151/20 was also fitted on the Macchi C.205, the Fiat G.55 and Reggiane Re 2005, the most powerful Regia Aeronautica fighter aircraft, built around the Daimler-Benz DB 605 engine.

After WWII, numbers of ex-Luftwaffe MG 151/20 cannon were removed from inventory and from scrapped aircraft and used by various nations in their own aircraft. The French Air Force and French Army aviation arm (ALAT) utilized MG 151/20 cannon as both fixed and flexible armament in various aircraft, including helicopters. The FAF and ALAT jointly developed a rubber-insulated flexible mount for the MG 151/20 for use as a door gun, which was later used in combat in Algeria aboard several FAF/ALAT H-21C assault transport helicopters and on HSS-1 Pirate gunship helicopters. French Matra MG 151 20mm cannons were used by Portugal, Rhodesia and South Africa fitted to their Alouette III helicopters.

The 15mm caliber is similar to a 14.5mm round, developed in World War 2 for the Soviet PTRD and PTRS antitank rifles and used in post-war heavy machine guns. Recent developments of 14.5mm High Explosive Incendiary rounds may be regarded as a revival of the 15mm cannon concept.

Edited November 15, 2017 by 6./ZG26_Custard

[Finkeren]

Personally I don’t have any feeling of the MG 151 being weak, but then again I mostly fly Fw 190 hardly ever the 109 (except for the E7), so I’m not used to deal with having only 1 of them.

 

The reduced armament of the Fw 190 (MG-FF removed) is more than sufficient to kill or maim any fighter with a quick tap of the trigger. Against AI I have managed 10+ kills and still had cannon ammo left, and I’m a horrible shot.

[Willy__]

For some "bizarre" reason the 15mm (MG151/15) seems more effective against fighters than the 20mm (MG151/20)

 

 

 

Edited November 15, 2017 by 3./JG15_Staiger

[marklar]

We have already a thread about this "issue"

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/15215-minengeschoss-and-latest-version-ammo/

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Now entering repetitive and highly redundant DM/bias discussion country.

 

LukeFF - requesting a dead horse.

Edited November 15, 2017 by Space_Ghost

[bzc3lk]

Now entering repetitive and highly redundant DM/bias discussion country.

 

LukeFF - requesting a dead horse.

 

"Dead Horse" is on back order , but we have a new shipment of these.

[6./ZG26_Custard]

Now entering repetitive and highly redundant DM/bias discussion country.

 

LukeFF - requesting a dead horse.

Due to the absence of Luke.

 

[150GCT_Veltro]

For some "bizarre" reason the 15mm (MG151/15) seems more effective against fighters than the 20mm (MG151/20)

 

 

 

 

Not seems, they are. It's probably AP related....

[Willy__]

 

 

Now entering repetitive and highly redundant DM/bias discussion country.   LukeFF - requesting a dead horse.

 

 

This made me remember that:     

 

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Maybe if you guys open more threads and complain louder.

 

Whining as loudly as possible always delivers results... Or at least that's the unspoken assumption around these parts.

-snip-

 

This topic is even more dead horse than the 190 topic was, untill it farts out something that did change the situation.

 

You never know what will happen if you are patience.

 

-snip-

 

No, you're getting incessant, unproductive whining confused with objective, structured testing and concise delivery of findings.

 

Though the whining definitely required a lot of patience from everybody who was audience to it.

Edited November 15, 2017 by Space_Ghost

[Carl_infar]

Do someone know how many hits it was needed IRL Mg 151/20 to usually down an enemy fighter?

3-5 or more? How it is in game? And does the smoke puff mean a confirmed hit?

 

During last Campaign on Random Expert new superb stat page was introduced where there are all the details, like how many hits what caliber were scored.

http://il2expert.ru/en?tourid=8

 

Below please find some random  examples (I didnt had time to go trough all kills) of shoot down planes (bombers and fighters) and numbers of hits (I always play reds on TAW, but on Random I played germans this time and found it much easier than the red side) .Of course in many instances I hit the enemy more times than required to bring him down.:

 

 

  fighter       HE 20mm AP 20mm 7,62

yak1b               1               2           3

Spitfire             4               3         15

LA5                   3              5          37

LA5                   3               0          9

yak1b                2              4         23

I16                     2              3         21

I16                     2              1           12                

bomber       HE 20mm AP 20mm 7,62

PE2                     13         8           36

PE2                      2          3             5

PE2                     10          5           29

PE2                        3        1           80

PE2                        6       2             30      

 

So generally only very few hits are needed for fighter and not so many for PE2 

Edited November 15, 2017 by Carl_infar

[Livai]

Well, would you look at that, this guy is blowing the wings off and everything!

 

 

Yeah, don't missed that part cut through each plane parts no matter how thick it is same as a knife cut through butter. And here once again ->> Look what the La-5 do to the He-111 - Funny DM Spoiler Alert

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WOYUA38pjQ

[von-Luck]

In lieu of any comment about the efficacy of the MG151/20 I will mention that when shooting at Russian birds try to avoid shooting their tail. If you instead shoot for wing roots you will be much better off. Also spreading your shots results in a highly unsatisfactory experience - try to focus your fire on one wing root.

 

This of course makes dead six pursuits one of your weaker approaches - try to use a longer spurt in this case.

 

von Luck

[CUJO_1970]

Hi everyone. 1st I have to say I’m just loving this sim. I’m new to the series although I’ve been flight swimming for 30yrs including many hours in the original il2 and 1946. I recently bought a Rift and I’ve rekindled an old hobby, in fact I think I’m enjoying it more than ever. Bravo to the developers, this really is a great work of art. Hopefully I’ll be able to join up with a squad.

 

My question is in regards to the 109 guns. I’ve been messing around online for the past few days and I’ve hit a ton of planes but I’ve been unable to score a kill. My understanding is with the BOx games there are purchasable upgrades or unlocks? Am I to be upgrading the guns to be more lethal? Are they already at full potential? Are they lacking punch vs the Russian planes in real life? Is it merely a lack of getting quality hits?

 

Thanks in advance for any advice!

 

Cheers,

Robert

 

Hello and welcome, sir.

 

The issue with the German 20mm apparently lies in the difficulty to program how this specific cannon round does it's damage, that is to say by chemical means as apposed to kinetic means. The MG 151  mine round was a very high-explosive round that was designed to punch thru an aircraft's skin and explode inside the structure (think small grenade in confined space). This does not really happen in the sim.

 

So, it seems to be behaving like a kinetic round  - this is why in some cases you blow wings off in a single pass (kinetic effect) and in other cases anomalies where it looks like you hit the Russian aircraft with a dirt clod (no chemical effect).

 

If the German 20MM was a kinetic round, the damage model would be almost perfect for what we see in the sim.

[Finkeren]

In lieu of any comment about the efficacy of the MG151/20 I will mention that when shooting at Russian birds try to avoid shooting their tail. If you instead shoot for wing roots you will be much better off. Also spreading your shots results in a highly unsatisfactory experience - try to focus your fire on one wing root.

 

This of course makes dead six pursuits one of your weaker approaches - try to use a longer spurt in this case.

 

von Luck

The thing is: Most of us aren’t shooting at the tail section of our targets, nor the wing root for that matter. We are shooting in the general direction of the enemy plane, hoping to God that we hit something - anything! Edited November 15, 2017 by Finkeren

[LukeFF]

Now entering repetitive and highly redundant DM/bias discussion country.

 

LukeFF - requesting a dead horse.

 

[Willy__]

The thing is: Most of us aren’t shooting at the tail section of our targets, nor the wing root for that matter. We are shooting in the general direction of the enemy plane, hoping to God that we hit something - anything! Edited by Finkeren, Today, 16:37.

 

 

huh, no. 

When I shoot I aim at specific parts of the aircraft and they usually hit where I aim, off course if the target is maneuvering then the chances of him getting hit is lower. Usually my accuracy stays at 8-10% range.

 

[edited]

 

Not here, last time.

[LukeFF]

 

 

but I guess the russian forum whined about it and they changed ?

 

Well, go find out for us what they said.  

[Willy__]

Shush guys! FM/DM police arrived. 

 

No, I did.

Edited November 15, 2017 by SYN_Haashashin

[LukeFF]

Shush guys! FM/DM police arrived. 

 

Nope, it's just you with your typical snarky replies. You're the one claiming that it was the Russian forum's whining that's resulted in the current DM. 

Edited November 15, 2017 by LukeFF

[Ribbon]

On Berloga that is best test, flying as VVS you feel that MG/151 20mm are fine even if La-5 feels a bit strange, considering it can take really too much 20mm. It's just an examlpe. Yak seems to be fine. So probaly this "Lutftwhiner complain" is not just related only to the MG151 itself but also to some VVS DM.

When flying as German you have really an insane amount of istant pilot killed, flying VVS you don't feel the same, even if when you are loaded of 20mm, La-5 again is a good example.

 

When you rip the 109 wings, it does feel a bit strange too....really too easy. FW-190 feel to be another paper aircaft.

 

We don't talk about Hispano vs 109 because they feel like 30mm.

 

The big question about this big problem in this fantastic new IL2 serie is still to be answered. This is not a spam but......we can't ignore this:

 

do the same video with ju-88, he-111 or even stuka! 

Bomber is not fighter so you can't compare them regarding DM, compare bomber with bomber not 109 with pe2.

Also what i noticed is players whining about it stay on bomber's six for ages, try in in any fighter (VVS or LW) and attack bomber.

[von-Luck]

The thing is: Most of us aren’t shooting at the tail section of our targets, nor the wing root for that matter. We are shooting in the general direction of the enemy plane, hoping to God that we hit something - anything!

☺

 

Practice practice practice - the adage aim small miss small applies here as well. High deflection shooting is almost an art and will take considerable effort to learn well. Barring any of that I highly advise adopting a Hartmann esque style of shooting where you hold fire until the enemy plane fills your reticle. Precision is important - learning to shoot accurately will make you a better pilot.

 

von Luck

Edited November 15, 2017 by von-Luck

[1_Robert_]

Oh boy - looks like I opened a can of worms! 

 

I apologize for that, I genuinely was just asking a naive question as I thought maybe I was missing out on some upgrade or something. This upgrade/unlock thing is new to me when it comes to flight sims (I'm not sure what to think of unlocks in a sim yet that's a whole other topic). 

 

I just expected to get a few "read the bleeping manual" or "you just are awful at shooting" comments, guess I was wrong 

 

I flew some AI missions and was knocking the VVS out of the sky left and right (except the il2), then I flew online for a couple days and was confused that I couldn't bag a thing. That was the reason for my question, thanks to all that responded.

 

On a side note, I scored my first kill this morning and it felt good 

[Lemon]

 i appreciate you did rweaves6 ,  i really like and i learned from  some people with technical s  comments, and tips about aiming , thanks to all who take time to give good infos

just sad to read some comments who bring nothing good...

Edited November 15, 2017 by Lemon

[von-Luck]

This is a highly sensitive topic here for a variety of reasons. Suffice it to say the topic has seen much attention here on the forums and I would stay away from it in the future - at least until you have learned more of the context to this ongoing "discussion".

 

Congratulations on your kill and happy hunting!

 

von Luck

Edited November 15, 2017 by von-Luck

[ITAF_Cymao]

do the same video with ju-88, he-111 or even stuka!

Really? Are you sure what you are saying?

Well then please give us a link to a similar video where a Ju88 or a H111 is hit by a hundred shots,, with the crew still alive, and that makes two airkills...

 

S!

Edited November 15, 2017 by ITAF_Cymao

[Dakpilot]

There are no unlocks, just choices of historic loadouts or occasional different sub types or models, they are available to everyone EXCEPT on some servers for timeline or restrictions due to historical Rarity. Years ago you needed to complete small amounts of SP campaign to access the 'extra' loadouts, this proved very unpopular and was changed a long time ago

 

Cheers Dakpilot

Edited November 15, 2017 by Dakpilot

[von-Luck]

 

There are no unlocks, just choices of historic loadouts or occasional different sub types or models, they are available to everyone EXCEPT on some servers for timeline or restrictions due to historical Rarity. Years ago you needed to complete small amounts of SP campaign to access the 'extra' loadouts, this proved very unpopular and was changed a long time ago

Cheers Dakpilot

*Shakes fist at armored plate behind pilot*

 

Oh the howls of righteous indignation over this . . .

 

von Luck

Edited November 15, 2017 by von-Luck