Too many Bf 109s in the game?

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

28 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

The G-10 would also give the option between the MK 108 and MG 151/20, whereas the K-4 does not.

What makes you say this? The MK 108 was standard, but apparently some K-4s were fitted with an MG 151/20. 

[Field-Ops]

1 hour ago, Mitthrawnuruodo said:

What makes you say this? The MK 108 was standard, but apparently some K-4s were fitted with an MG 151/20. 

I remember reading this argument on the WT forums a couple years back where they could not find but 1 example of the MG151/20 in the K4.

[sevenless]

You can never have too much 109 variants in the game. Same goes for Yaks. I want them all at some point in the future.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

More MiG-3 Variants. 

One with Slats but the worse Prop/Reduction Drive

And the early without Slats but better Performance. 

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

8 hours ago, VesseL said:

G-10 because it turns better than G-14 or K-4 but its allmost as fast and good climber as K-4. Its more versatile and fun i would expect.

 

As far as I have been told the G-14 was the better turner of the three, because it was lighter and it's propeller was optimized for low altitudes, and below 5000 meters it had higher climbrate than the K-4, because of the similar power yet lighter weight (and low altitude propeller), I think the supercharger was also more optimized for lower altitudes than G-10's/K-4's. However the K-4 was significantly faster because of the more aerodynamic airframe.

I suppose the G-10 would be inbetween these, not as fast as the K-4 but not as light and good climber as the G-14? Maybe a C3 non MW 50 G-10 being able to produce the power of the B4 w/ MW 50 K-4, while not having the extra weight of the MW 50 installation, could give it an edge in turn performance and climb rate, although it would still have the high altitude propeller and supercharger.

 

I really liked the G-10 in 1946 mostly because of it's looks and the 20mm cannon (the K-4 felt a bit too heavy for me and the 30mm was tricky to use).


I could see in the long future an expansion with the Fw 190 A-9 and Bf 109 G-10 paired against the Yak-3 and La-7 but who knows if and when that would happen.

Edited May 6, 2018 by -=PHX=-SuperEtendard

[Fang333333]

"To Many Bf 109s In The Game?"

 

I'm not feeling this as a problem.

 

[LukeFF]

7 hours ago, -=PHX=-SuperEtendard said:

I suppose the G-10 would be inbetween these, not as fast as the K-4 but not as light and good climber as the G-14?

 

More or less, yes, given that details can sometimes be hard to nail down with the ever-increasing chaotic nature of German aircraft production by late-1944. It was originally believed that the G-10s were nothing more than recycled G-series airframes, but more recent research shows the G-10s were new airframes meant to provide near - K-4 performance until the factories could convert fully to K-4 production. As it turned out, though, that never happened, and G-10s were being built right up to the end of the war.

[MiloMorai]

There was 2048 neubau built compared to  the 1593 neubau K-4s.

[Ehret]

11 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:

More MiG-3 Variants. 

One with Slats but the worse Prop/Reduction Drive

And the early without Slats but better Performance. 

 

The 39-Q please, too - lighter, better accel/climb than the L, and higher critical altitude but slower especially with four 50 cals.

[ShamrockOneFive]

10 hours ago, -=PHX=-SuperEtendard said:

 

I could see in the long future an expansion with the Fw 190 A-9 and Bf 109 G-10 paired against the Yak-3 and La-7 but who knows if and when that would happen.

 

That I could see happening.

 

I'm not opposed to flying a G-10 (let's have all the things :)) but if they do have a pair of new Collector Planes at the end of Bodenplatte development, I'd rather see something a bit more unique added to the mix. I'm still holding out hope for the Ar234 on the German side.

[Frenchy56]

18 hours ago, Field-Ops said:

I remember reading this argument on the WT forums a couple years back where they could not find but 1 example of the MG151/20 in the K4.

A few earlier versions were upgraded to K-4 simply by changing the engine. So that might have been a G-14 or a G-10 fitted with the new DB-605DB/DC.

Standardisation in late-war 109's was just way too much of a mess to plunge your head into.

Edited May 6, 2018 by Frenchy56

[=362nd_FS=RoflSeal]

What would the ground attackers be for a late war German eastern front set.
For the Russians we have the option of Yak-3 and Yak-9 (many variants for this, but most appropriate would be M, T and U variants) and La-7 as fighters, and the option for bombers of IL-2M3 (with the swept wings), IL-10 if we go late enough, TU-2S.

German fighters at this point are limited to pretty much Bf-109G-10 and FW-190A-9 since Bodenplatte takes pretty much every other variant. Heavy Fighter in the form of the Me-410 Hornisse for fast strike capability similar to the Tu-2S. For bombers, I am stumped, late Do-217 variants from what I know were used on the Western and Mediterranean fronts, Germany ground attack at this point was basically ground strike FW-190s which to me seems will be accounted for in the form of modifications (like we have with A-5, being able to turn it into an F-3)

[ShamrockOneFive]

34 minutes ago, RoflSeal said:

What would the ground attackers be for a late war German eastern front set.
For the Russians we have the option of Yak-3 and Yak-9 (many variants for this, but most appropriate would be M, T and U variants) and La-7 as fighters, and the option for bombers of IL-2M3 (with the swept wings), IL-10 if we go late enough, TU-2S.

German fighters at this point are limited to pretty much Bf-109G-10 and FW-190A-9 since Bodenplatte takes pretty much every other variant. Heavy Fighter in the form of the Me-410 Hornisse for fast strike capability similar to the Tu-2S. For bombers, I am stumped, late Do-217 variants from what I know were used on the Western and Mediterranean fronts, Germany ground attack at this point was basically ground strike FW-190s which to me seems will be accounted for in the form of modifications (like we have with A-5, being able to turn it into an F-3)

 

That set makes a fair bit of sense to me

 

For the Do-217 there was some very limited used during the build-up to the Battle of Berlin. KG100 was involved with using some radio guided bombs to demolish bridges but I don't remember what their effectiveness was on these missions.

 

We'll likely get the F-8 in Bodenplatte (from the A-8).... a hypothetical Berlin scenario could give us the rare F-9.

[LukeFF]

42 minutes ago, RoflSeal said:

Heavy Fighter in the form of the Me-410 Hornisse for fast strike capability similar to the Tu-2S.

 

No, just no. Me 410s were not used in ground attack by mid-1944. They were nothing more than recon planes by then.

Edited May 6, 2018 by LukeFF

[=362nd_FS=RoflSeal]

36 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

No, just no. Me 410s were not used in ground attack by mid-1944. They were nothing more than recon planes by then.

If it is added as one of the two collector planes it is fine considering those don't have to be battle accurate (FW-190A-3, P-40E-1 and C.202)

 

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

Ju 188 could be a good late war bomber for LW I think

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

A rather conservative Soviet set

• La-7
• Il-2 1944
• Yak-3
• Yak-9U
• Tu-2S

Somewhat excessive Luftwaffe side, but not without precedent

• Bf 109 G-10
• Fw 190 A-9
• Ar 234 B-2
• Hs 129 B-3
• Do 335 A-1

Both sides would have powerful aircraft in every role. The jet would keep things interesting by building on Bodenplatte developments. Perhaps the Do 335 or Hs 129 could be replaced with something more prominent (although I'm sure some people would love them). 

[VesseL]

18 hours ago, -=PHX=-SuperEtendard said:

 

As far as I have been told the G-14 was the better turner of the three, because it was lighter and it's propeller was optimized for low altitudes, and below 5000 meters it had higher climbrate than the K-4, because of the similar power yet lighter weight (and low altitude propeller), I think the supercharger was also more optimized for lower altitudes than G-10's/K-4's. However the K-4 was significantly faster because of the more aerodynamic airframe.

I suppose the G-10 would be inbetween these, not as fast as the K-4 but not as light and good climber as the G-14? Maybe a C3 non MW 50 G-10 being able to produce the power of the B4 w/ MW 50 K-4, while not having the extra weight of the MW 50 installation, could give it an edge in turn performance and climb rate, although it would still have the high altitude propeller and supercharger.

 

I really liked the G-10 in 1946 mostly because of it's looks and the 20mm cannon (the K-4 felt a bit too heavy for me and the 30mm was tricky to use).


I could see in the long future an expansion with the Fw 190 A-9 and Bf 109 G-10 paired against the Yak-3 and La-7 but who knows if and when that would happen.

 

Well, I trust you more than me in this matter, but my personal experiense from the original Il-2 was that the G-10 was the best turner of them all. And what I have read the G-10 has even said to be the best performer Gustav and def better than G-14 that is only slightly better version of the G-6. G-14 is not as fast as G-10, says wikipedia, but im no expert so cant say for sure.

 

ed. my endless typos

Edited May 6, 2018 by VesseL

[sevenless]

4 hours ago, RoflSeal said:

What would the ground attackers be for a late war German eastern front set.

 

Most prominent ground attack plane the german flew on east front was the F and G versions of the FW 190. More than 3.000 were produced of the F8 alone.

3 hours ago, Mitthrawnuruodo said:

 

• Hs 129 B-3
• Do 335 A-1

 

Replace with FW 190 F8 and Ta 152 H

[=362nd_FS=RoflSeal]

15 minutes ago, sevenless said:

 

Most prominent ground attack plane the german flew on east front was the F and G versions of the FW 190. More than 3.000 were produced of the F8 alone.

 

Replace with FW 190 F8 and Ta 152 H

I am assuming F-8 will be available as a modification for the A-8 we will see in Bodenplatte (like the A-5 and A-5/U17 aka F-3)

Edited May 6, 2018 by RoflSeal

[sevenless]

18 minutes ago, RoflSeal said:

I am assuming F-8 will be available as a modification for the A-8 we will see in Bodenplatte (like the A-5 and A-5/U17 aka F-3)

 

Ah I see.Then I would propose this one:

Just to get back that SWOTL feeling :-)

[LukeFF]

6 hours ago, -=PHX=-SuperEtendard said:

Ju 188 could be a good late war bomber for LW I think

 

(Sigh)

 

Guys, once again, the Germans hardly had a late war bomber force. Other than the Ar 234, everything was devoted to the fighter force.

[Enceladus828]

On 5/1/2018 at 4:47 PM, ShamrockOneFive said:

 

Exactly it.

 

 

The problem is that the Bf109 is THE fighter in the Luftwaffe from start to finish. So if the devs created Battle of Bodenplatte (for example) but then decided that they would not have the Bf109G-14 and Bf109K-4... well we're eliminating a 1/3rd of the Luftwaffe aircraft list right away. And replace them with what? There wouldn't be anything that would even approach being the equivalent.

 

I'm looking through the daily action reports for 2nd TAF units during Bodenplatte and its all Bf109s and FW190s. It's interesting when you see a Ju88, Do217 or a Fi156 show up on the list but some days the only action was against Bf109s or FW190s.

 

So, I can't figure this out at all.

Replying to your post, I believe that the G-14 and the K-4 should be in BoBP.

[PikAss]

Luv when people want exotic planes like Do335. Let's make a Ba 349 and Ho229, too. OR ZEH AMERIKABOMBAH?

When Devs make 5 planes per team with their not unlimited ressources, the question they have to ask and that is the only true question. "Which enemy planes will you most likely fight over western front as an allies pilot". And not what is the most exotic plane and most fun to fly. Also good luck to find any data how the Do335 handles at different situations(speed, altitude, engine)

And curb ya bomber force fantasy. I know that many people like german bombahz but they were less active as many people want to believe at the end of the war in the west(44/45). Many of them flew only very few bomber missions, because they took loses in the earlier missions that had to be replaced(training bombercrew). So many JaBo(fighter bomber) were used to that timeperiod if bomber missions were intended.

 

The 109s we got in Bodenplatte are perfectly fine.

Edited May 7, 2018 by [3./J88]PikAss

[MiloMorai]

6 hours ago, sevenless said:

 

Most prominent ground attack plane the german flew on east front was the F and G versions of the FW 190. More than 3.000 were produced of the F8 alone.

 

 

Fw190F-8: 2264 from Arado and 1350 from NDW for 3614 (Dec '44,. Feb, Mar '45 data missing)

[hames123]

Operation Steinbock game some day? Ju 188, HE 177, Do 217 and earlier bombers all trying to bomb the UK into submission. And getting torn up by Mosquitoes. It would be an interesting career, spent watching the windows for the glow of a Mosquito engine in the darkness.

[Asgar]

Just give me a 410 heavy fighter and i'm happy. 

 

On 6.5.2018 at 10:25 AM, LukeFF said:

 

More or less, yes, given that details can sometimes be hard to nail down with the ever-increasing chaotic nature of German aircraft production by late-1944. It was originally believed that the G-10s were nothing more than recycled G-series airframes, but more recent research shows the G-10s were new airframes meant to provide near - K-4 performance until the factories could convert fully to K-4 production. As it turned out, though, that never happened, and G-10s were being built right up to the end of the war.

from everything i've read the G-10 was an attempt of standardization of all the stuff going on with the dozens of G-6 variants, AS ASM AM etc. different armaments, airframe mods, Erla Hauben all that kind of stuff

[Feathered_IV]

I'd happily exchange one of those extra 109's for something which expanded gameplay.  An Fw-189 or Storch for  example.

[Trooper117]

As much as I like the 109 series, I have to agree with the above 

[ST_ami7b5]

Same here.
Like above and above

 

[Asgar]

no, how about we leave out the P-51 and do the 189 instead?

[Royal_Flight]

34 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Asgar said:

no, how about we leave out the P-51 and do the 189 instead?

 

Sure, if we leave out the P-51D then we’ve still got seven other versions of P-51 to choose from so I can’t see anyone complaining...

Edited May 7, 2018 by Royal_Flight

[Asgar]

i'd like a razorback P-51

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

The more 109s the better.

 

I'm sure the balance of German/Allied plane quantity will shift to being more allied instead of German once the remaining key Luftwaffe planes are completed. Personally, I'd rather fly something that fits a theater and was there in numbers, not experimental or rare planes even if that means one side starts to get more planes developed for it.

 

The beauty of 109 variants is that they sell well and don't take anywhere near as much developer resources as your <insert rare exotic plane here>.

 

Each 109 feels different. There isn't a single one in the current line up that doesn't add something to the experience.

 

[PikAss]

4 hours ago, Feathered_IV said:

I'd happily exchange one of those extra 109's for something which expanded gameplay.  An Fw-189 or Storch for  example.

 

That's how allied fighter pilots remember the western fronts 44/45. Fiesler Storchs and Fw 189s climb up towards the P51s and P47s to intercept them. 

 

Dudes...

[Gambit21]

7 minutes ago, [3./J88]PikAss said:

 

That's how allied fighter pilots remember the western fronts 44/45. Fiesler Storchs and Fw 189s climb up towards the P51s and P47s to intercept them. 

 

Dudes...

 

Dude - the loud BOOM you hear is the point rocketing over your head at a high Mach number.

The 109 had to happen for various reasons - no question.

 

That doesn't mean the need/utility of other types can't also be comprehended - you'd think...

[=621=Samikatz]

1 hour ago, [3./J88]PikAss said:

 

That's how allied fighter pilots remember the western fronts 44/45. Fiesler Storchs and Fw 189s climb up towards the P51s and P47s to intercept them. 

 

Dudes...

 

The final dogfight of the war was between a Storch and an American L-4 Grasshopper, with the pilots of the latter chasing the former, shooting from their unarmed aircraft with their handguns

[VesseL]

All the current, and will be planes, 109 included, are not too much. But if one 109 should go i would let the G-4 go. If it would be that simple i would change it for typhoon, spit 14, or mosquito.

[Enceladus828]

22 minutes ago, VesseL said:

All the current, and will be planes, 109 included, are not too much. But if one 109 should go i would let the G-4 go. If it would be that simple i would change it for typhoon, spit 14, or mosquito.

I would agree with you, the G-4 is too similar to the G-2. The devs should have put the G-6 in that spot instead of making it a Collector. I like your thoughts on the Mosquito.

[LukeFF]

1 hour ago, Novice-Flyer said:

I would agree with you, the G-4 is too similar to the G-2. The devs should have put the G-6 in that spot instead of making it a Collector. I like your thoughts on the Mosquito.

 

Except that it's been explained 10,000 times why the G-4 was chosen.