Too many Bf 109s in the game?

[ElPerk]

The decission was perhaps rational, but that doesn’t mean it was the right decission.

 

The thing is, by early 1943 the very fact that Germany was still fighting the war was paradoxical and irrational. In any normal military conflict, Germany would have sued for peace by then.

 

Any German attempt at turning the war around had to rely on some miraculous event or magical new wonder-weapon, that any rational being would realize wasn’t going to materialize. Yet the German leadership for the most part either forced themselves to believe in miracles or they simply stopped thinking more than two steps ahead and kept themselves busy just running the war to its logical conclusion without thinking too much about the consequences.

 

Thatkind of mindset is what resulted in many designs, that were by themselves solid and promising (along with some nutty ones - I’m looking at you Me 163) entering large scale production and active service far too quickly, wasting ressources and manpower and holding back production numbers.

Besides weird prototypes, Nazi Germany also had a knack for monopolies, nepotism and politics as a basis for procurement. The further down the rabbit hole you look, the more you wonder how Germany could even produce anything in even remotely sensible numbers. Finally, you get into the stuff like "we have 12 000 Bf 109G-6s produced, but we need a standardization of later models to supplement the placeholder for a new standard model because we can't fly our planes because we're out of parts because every squadron has 6 different models". Meanwhile any attempts to build anything but an incremental improvements were often pushed back a year or two due to infighting in RLM/Hitler/Göring/another designer building something shiny/cronyism/WE HAVE A NEW MODEL/let's bomber/this thing needs a 58mm new cannon" or whatever. Everything about those projects reads like the people involved have at least some level of attention deficit disorder or are just completely oblivious to the nature of the war they started in the first place.

 

These things were not a bug but a feature in Nazi procurement and planning, and an integral part of how the entire society worked.

 

 

[Potenz]

That mindset was establish at the beginning of the war, when Germany was doing it pretty well. The Luftwaffe has no real opponent till they face the RAF, and there actually the RAF in term of numbers and experience was no match for the LW, thankfully Göering was an idiot and used those stupid Tactics... anyways, that's was mainly why Germany focused so blindly in the 109 and the had to accept that they needed the 190, also all the other things mentioned by @ElPerk.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Oh, I left out many planes :D We didn't even go to the vast assortment of different liaison-recce-transport aircraft!

 

Semi-seriously, you could make a standard set for approximately autumn 1941 for something like:

FAF:

- Brewster B239

- Curtiss Hawk [some model]

- Bristol Blenheim IV

- Fokker C.X? Do 17?

Premium:

M.S.406

 

VVS is problematic:

I-153

LaGG-3 early series?

Tupolev SB or DB-3

Something something no idea?

Premium:

Hurricane miiiiight be OK

 

But this is just pure fantasy until... late 2020s, and at that point we are all scavenging for food, memes and joystick spare parts in a desolate wasteland

At the current rate of development I think even this timeline is pretty optimistic. 2025’ish maybe.

[ElPerk]

At the current rate of development I think even this timeline is pretty optimistic. 2025’ish maybe.

In the grim darkness of far future there are only neverending suggestion threads. 

[Bearcat]

This is an easy problem to solve. Go back in time and convince Germany to produce some kind of fighter other than the 109 or 190.

 

Sounds like a plan.. any volunteers...?  I'm just sayin..... 

[Barnacles]

2 more for you all!

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Oh yea, MORE 109s FTW. 

[ZachariasX]

Just pre-ordered another one of those...

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

I want my Forum Emblems though. Got me the G-6, FN, and BoB. 

[Seb71]

2 more for you all!

You mean three more (G-14, K-4 from BoB and G-6 as a new collector plane).

[150GCT_Veltro]

G-10 is missed, sorry guys but we need one more.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

G-10 is missed, sorry guys but we need one more.

There's still a couple more to come!

 

Bf 109 A-0

Bf 109 B-1

Bf 109 C-0

Bf 109 D

Bf 109 E-1 to E-4

Bf 109 T

Bf 109 F1, F3

Bf 109 G1, G3, G5, G-12

Bf 109 K-2, Bf 109 K-6, Bf 109 K-8, Bf 109 K-14

Edited November 18, 2017 by 6./ZG26_5tuka

[150GCT_Veltro]

Yes but you did forget G-10 Erla, the my love.

[Finkeren]

There's still a couple more to come!

 

Bf 109 A-0

Bf 109 B-1

Bf 109 C-0

Bf 109 D

Bf 109 E-1 to E-4

Bf 109 T

Bf 109 F1, F3

Bf 109 G1, G3, G5, G-12

Bf 109 K-2, Bf 109 K-6, Bf 109 K-8, Bf 109 K-14

You can skip the “T”, but don’t forget the dedicated armed recon version, the G8.

[LuftManu]

Well they used the damm 1-0-9 through the whole war

[Asgar]

heard it here first, after the Pacific games there will be IL-2: Flight of the 109, order today, your 10 favorite Bf 109 variants! for the top price of just 109$!

Edited November 18, 2017 by 6./ZG26_Asgar

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

You can skip the “T”, but don’t forget the dedicated armed recon version, the G8.

As far as I know some Ts saw action on the eastern front (likely as conversions). Infact the "Christmann" skin we have ingame depicts a 109 T.

[DB605]

There's still a couple more to come!

 

Bf 109 K-2, Bf 109 K-6, Bf 109 K-8, Bf 109 K-14

 

K4 was only one of K series to enter actual service.

 

But G10 (especially Erla) would be nice addition to series as it was produced much more in numbers than K4.

Edited November 18, 2017 by DB605

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

The Bf109 G14 is very much a G6 - only slightly bigger rudder and elevator, as well as standardized MW50 boost for engine. That said, it's really almost the same aircraft.

 

 

I would love to see the Macchi MC.205 replace the Bf109 G14. The frame is very similar to the Macchi 202, like the G-14 to the G-6.

 

 

It's like a powerful Macchi 202 with 1475PS for up to 5 minutes at sealevel (!), 2x 12,7mm Bredas, and 2x 20mm MG151/20 in the wings. It can carry 2x 160kg bombs beneath the wings as well.

[Enceladus828]

On 11/13/2017 at 6:44 AM, Cpt_Cool said:

 

 

I actually think he means that the devs got the BOM plane set correct (and the collector planes for BOK). Still I don't agree with his point though.

That's exactly what I mean, thank you Cpt_Cool. 

On 11/13/2017 at 6:44 AM, Cpt_Cool said:

 

 

 

On 11/13/2017 at 6:44 AM, Cpt_Cool said:

 

 

Edited March 22, 2018 by Novice-Flyer

[InProgress]

On 18.11.2017 at 11:16 PM, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

I would love to see the Macchi MC.205 replace the Bf109 G14. The frame is very similar to the Macchi 202, like the G-14 to the G-6.

Don't you think it would look silly to see bunch of mc flying around instead of 109? Especially that there was only like 200+ of these made. It would  be nice to have it but not instead  of  109.

[EAF19_Marsh]

They made 35,000 of the things, in service from before the first day of WW2 to 8th May. They equipped most of the fighter units, as well as ground attack and recce. The variants we have in game represent the most common and key inflection points of the series to 1943.

 

There were plans to replace it but these never took off (pun!) for a variety of reasons. In fact, or all the wartime aircraft programmes only the 190 was arguably a success and it complimented but never replaced the 109. So we have lots of 109 variants.

 

If you turn this on its head, you could not easily have the 3 campaigns with any fewer (maybe lose the G4?), while BoBp will build on the G6 for 1944/45. If the Kursk tank crew map is also used for a flying theatre, the G6 will be wholly necessary.

[JaffaCake]

I think the main problem is that the devs did not simply release "unlocked" engine for the G2, instead opting for G4 release.

[J2_Trupobaw]

I think the main problem is that people assume everybody has to start with all three BoX tittles. Yes, if you buy all three you have so many Bf-109 variantss some look redundant. If you buy one tittle you still have two to choose from, if you buy two tittles you have enough 109 fly in any historical setting. 

Just check what's the planeset of someone who has BoM and BoK but no BOS, or other two out of three selection. 

[Godspeed]

One option is to make HS-123 to game.

Its not "Fighter" but gives more variety.

[sevenless]

16 minutes ago, LsV_Trupobaw said:

I think the main problem is that people assume everybody has to start with all three BoX tittles. Yes, if you buy all three you have so many Bf-109 variantss some look redundant. If you buy one tittle you still have two to choose from, if you buy two tittles you have enough 109 fly in any historical setting. 

Just check what's the planeset of someone who has BoM and BoK but no BOS, or other two out of three selection. 

 

Important point. Every expansion has to be able to stand on its own feet.

[EAF19_Marsh]

Quote

 

One option is to make HS-123 to game.

Its not "Fighter" but gives more variety.

 

 

That plus the I-153 would be fantastic, but I suspect low on the priority list.

[CrazyDuck]

On 14. 11. 2017 at 12:22 PM, Finkeren said:

The decission was perhaps rational, but that doesn’t mean it was the right decission.

 

The thing is, by early 1943 the very fact that Germany was still fighting the war was paradoxical and irrational. In any normal military conflict, Germany would have sued for peace by then.

 

Case was similar with Japan. Both, Germany and Japan, planned on waging a quick, lightning war (blitzkrieg), capturing their goals quickly and then looking for peace. This should be achievable in months, not years of continuous war of attrition. That's also the reason Japan was stuck with A6M as the main fighter basically till the end of the war. They didn't plan on the war to last this long, and then simply couldn't afford time to interrupt the already overloaded production for retooling the factories and to switch to newer types.  

[EAF19_Marsh]

Quote

Case was similar with Japan. Both, Germany and Japan, planned on waging a quick, lightning war (blitzkrieg),

 

Not in the case of Germany; the industrial planning was for a long war (especially against the US) but the initial campaigns were supposed to be over quickly (though they were as surprised by anyone with how France fell). One of the reason why aircrfat development was such a dog's breakfast was there was very little coherence in the planning; outlandish efforts for huge fleets from the 3 services which get dialed-down as things go wrong.

 

For Barbarossa, everything is mobilized for the short victory, but that victory was another stage for the eventually clash of continents. In the confusion and ad-hoc approach to these things (priorities shift back and forth), aircrfat replacement programmes are poorly managed and the 109 soldiers on.

[Ehret]

On 11/14/2017 at 12:22 PM, Finkeren said:

The decission was perhaps rational, but that doesn’t mean it was the right decission.

 

The thing is, by early 1943 the very fact that Germany was still fighting the war was paradoxical and irrational. In any normal military conflict, Germany would have sued for peace by then.

 

Any German attempt at turning the war around had to rely on some miraculous event or magical new wonder-weapon, that any rational being would realize wasn’t going to materialize. Yet the German leadership for the most part either forced themselves to believe in miracles or they simply stopped thinking more than two steps ahead and kept themselves busy just running the war to its logical conclusion without thinking too much about the consequences.

 

They indulged in the total war - they couldn't sue for peace without getting personally responsible. All later efforts were just to prolong lifes of Nazi officials. The thinking that some kind of breakthrough could save their heads... well - everyone would try something to push back the inevitable.

Edited March 22, 2018 by Ehret

[BlitzPig_EL]

As to Japan, they had TWO primary fighter types, one for the Navy, the A6M, and one for the Army, the Ki43, though both Navy and Army had other types as well, especially later in the war.  Somewhere along the way, the Imperial Japanese Army's aircraft get cut out of the picture when discussing Japanese fighters, and all you hear is Zero...Zero...Zero...

 

A legacy of US pilots calling everything they saw a Zero, no matter what it really was, or where it was seen, like all those Army Ki 43s over China being called Zekes by the AVG.

[ATA_Vasilij]

On 12. 11. 2017 at 7:24 PM, CanadaOne said:

More 109s simply means more targets.

 

This is what I wanted to write..... heh

[ShamrockOneFive]

12 minutes ago, Butch said:

Too many Spitfire MkV in game : Lend-Lease supplied only 143 to the Red Air Force

 

No Hawker Hurricane in game :  Lend-Lease supplied 2,952 to the Red Air Force

 

Romanian army: 170 IAR80 and 176 IAR81 build (so few, what's the point for a collector plane?)

 

Which Russian fighter units in the Kuban battles (spring to fall 1943) operated the Hurricane and how many did they have?

2 hours ago, JaffaCake said:

I think the main problem is that the devs did not simply release "unlocked" engine for the G2, instead opting for G4 release.

As it was explained to me at least a few times... the late series G-2 with engines capable of 1.42 ATA are pretty much the same as the G-4 (minus the radio).

[Lensman]

Hold on ...

There's ANOTHER bf 109 variant other than the F4?!  Who knew?  

[Godspeed]

I really would love to see  Hs-123 , Me 410 , Me 210 , Ju 188 , Su-2 , Pe-3 , Pe-8 ( Even if only AI ), IAR 80/81

There are plenty possibilities and even more than this list.

 

One special notice is what i think the simulator needs is Macchi MC.200 because it was the main fighter what Italy provided.

There was very few Macchi MC.202 in the soviet front.

 

 

[BMA_Hellbender]

[CIA_Yankee_]

On 11/12/2017 at 1:22 PM, Finkeren said:

Problem is, that for this theater, there is just no way the Luftwaffe can match the number of different types operated by the Soviet air forces. To do that you’ll have to include the Finns as well.

 

You make that sound like a bad thing.

 

Bring on the Finns! Can't wait to paint some Moomins on my fuselage.!

 

Oh, and hear their crazy moon language on the radio!  

[ShamrockOneFive]

9 hours ago, Butch said:

 

I invite you to do some researches! And why only Kuban battle? We have BOS and BOM...

..."Tank-busting Hurricanes were used to good effect in the battles of Kuban and Kursk in 1943."...

 

I've already done the research

 

Where does your quote come from?

 

I mention only the Kuban battle because you referenced the Spitfire and numbers in the Kuban battle.

[Panthera]

13 hours ago, JaffaCake said:

I think the main problem is that the devs did not simply release "unlocked" engine for the G2, instead opting for G4 release.

 

The main problem is rather that they restricted 1.42ata to 1 min when the engine had no such limit in the G4. 

[EAF19_Marsh]

Quote

Tank-busting Hurricanes

 

News to me, I thought that the Hurris were used as general CASs / fighters and had been mostly moved out of the major theatres by mid-'43?

 

But if we could pay for one, my money is there